why no penalty for Hamilton?

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

DiResta mentioned he might have felt aggrieved , had there been points at stake .

Which brings me back to that question , of whether those who feel that Lewis was treated harshly would feel differently if there had been an incident caused by Lewis's move .
I am wondering if it was OK merely because he was able to pull it off without an incident occurring .

If something had happened , would it have so OK ?

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If Di Resta had t-boned the McLaren because it remained in the centre of the track, what then?

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

No , but more than a tad irrelevent to this conversation .

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Very relevant, you say don't call names, except for the name calling that you are ok with..........

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

People like you are ruining the sport, boy. It is slowly becoming a nanny sport because of over stewarding and critics like you trying to criticise drivers at any instance. In a way, this is all down to the information age. Until the internet arrived which gave people like you a platform on which to announce your PC view on sport, the FIA, Stewards and drivers simply didn't have to take note. They could get on with their job and not be pressurised by likes of you that expect every driver with adrenaline rushing through their body to be able to remember every little rule in the book mid race. People like you, my dear man, are a plague on sport and the world.

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Wow, what strong and extremely rude words......

Whilst I agree that in this case Lewis did not see di Resta and it was probably just a genuine mistake, why is it always Lewis that's getting involved in this incidents? You say he's a hard racer with a drivers instinct, I say that he's a quick driver who has had self belief drilled into him from a young age and he acts and because he acts he feels that the way he acts is correct. Personally I feel that other drivers would have looked rather than just assuming that everything was going to be OK.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

If Di Resta had t-boned the McLaren because it remained in the centre of the track, what then?

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That was unlikely to have happened. The unwritten rule is that the driver who has spun is to stay still till he knows he is safe to move, that is unless the corner is unsighted (it's not) and the driver in the stationary car risks a certain accident by staying still.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Whilst I agree that in this case Lewis did not see di Resta and it was probably just a genuine mistake, why is it always Lewis that's getting involved in this incidents? You say he's a hard racer with a drivers instinct, I say that he's a quick driver who has had self belief drilled into him from a young age and he acts and because he acts he feels that the way he acts is correct. Personally I feel that other drivers would have looked rather than just assuming that everything was going to be OK.

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Amongst those also competing today, I can think of one exception...

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

It was a "vulnerable position" , but "wasn't a scary or dangerous situation" ?

Were there yellow flags ?

If he was "in clear view of those cars" , how come he couldn't see them when "He was square on to approaching traffic..." .


The potential for a crash was pretty high , and he's lucky he has some good drivers around him .



What would you guys have said if it had caused a pile-up ?

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He didn't so obviously it's OK old chap. Seems some people are happy to criticise someone like Michael when he pushes Rubens and doesn't cause an accident and then they take issue when you do it to their favourite driver :confused:

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Amongst those also competing today, I can think of one exception...

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Who? And does it make Lewis' actions any different :)

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Originally Posted by henners88

hindsight is a great thing.

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What's even better is using your brain at the time :)

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Originally Posted by henners88

What if's eh?

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So how do you explain the condemnation of Michael's accidents in regards to Rubens which also didn't cause an accident? If I were bothered I'd probably dig up posts from yourself and all the other Lewis fans in this thread which criticise Michael heavily.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Can I borrow that fishing rod after you?
Making a comparison with Schumacher pushing Ruben's towards a wall at highspeed (190mph) and Lewis spinning his car in an acceleration (50mph+) zone is not the same thing. Lewis had no intention or risking his race and that of Paul's and it was not a deliberate move to possibly end someones race. You are intelligent enough to draw that conclusion I would hope.

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Oh come on, don't accuse me of trolling......

You bring speed into it without considering that a side vs front on impact is far more dangerous than a side to side hit as Lewis demonstrated against his own team mate in Canada. I'm sorry but you Lewis fans are willing to make an excuse for every single one of his accidents, it's beyond ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by henners88

I've become increasingly tired of your posts lately Daniel and I used to have a laugh with you on here which I'm finding hard to do these days. If its not telling people their opinions are stupid, its attacking groups of posters who don't agree with you. Not my problem anymore.

Is a group of Lewis fans defending their favourite driver any different to someone like you who finds fault with everything he does whether its good or not? I'm yet to see you give any worthy credit without undermining it with a dig to be honest. I find you sit on a threads and disagree with the majority simply for effect, and fools like me bite like I did in your highly hypocritical 'anti-trolling thread' which was silly in hindsight.

Night night everyone.

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Henners accuses Daniel of trolling - OK
Daniel accuses someone else of trolling - not OK

Sorry Henners, but I'm not disagreeing for the sake of it, you can go back early to the start of this thread and see that I didn't think the incident was a huge deal, but as usual the anti-anti-Lewis cavalry came along and tried to paint him as a saint and I'm sorry, but that's just not true.

I finally dloaded the race to re-watch this incident and it really saddens me to say this, but I think the majority of IRL drivers seem to have more common sense then our Lewis Hamilton does. After re watching the replay, the smart thing to do was move forward enough to get that Macs arse end off the racing line while facing incoming traffic, and then wait for a safe moment to spin around, I've seen that done thousands of times, but that seems like a difficult concept for Lewis.

Now I`m still flip floppy on whether it was deserving of a penalty, but if the Stewards deemed it was dangerous enough for one, I would have preferred something a little harsher then a simple drive through. It also goes with my argument that F1 should have permanent stewards for the season, and they should have a larger selection of penalties to dish out.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Wow, what strong and extremely rude words......

Whilst I agree that in this case Lewis did not see di Resta and it was probably just a genuine mistake, why is it always Lewis that's getting involved in this incidents? You say he's a hard racer with a drivers instinct, I say that he's a quick driver who has had self belief drilled into him from a young age and he acts and because he acts he feels that the way he acts is correct. Personally I feel that other drivers would have looked rather than just assuming that everything was going to be OK.

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I don't know why it's always Lewis that gets involved in these incidents. Personally, I feel he's an easy target because he is so aggressive. If it were another driver I doubt as much noise would be made over it. I also feel that the Nurburgring was the first time all year where his head was in the correct place, the place where it should be every race. He has too much PR work to do for a guy that really has to go for the title. He is very marketable. This could be his undoing. For a driver to only get 2 days to train between any race is simply not good enough. I agree that Lewis has not been as impressive since his first year in F1 but he hasn't been far off either. The reason I believe for that is becuase he doesn't get the time to train and put his head in the right place anymore, whereas in 2007 he was unknown and was simply able to concentrate on his preparation for each race. I'd love to know Lewis PR schedule Vs say Seb's. I'd imagine Lewis is much fuller and Seb gets a lot more preparation time. Michael Schumacher won 7 WDC's because he trained and concentrated on his driving. Yes, he had PR work but it was limited. Last year was an extremely strong year for Lewis. I felt it was the best he drove since 2007. I also feel how well he drove in 2009 with the heap of crap car he had is overlooked too often myself. To summarise, 2007 was probably his best year alright but 2008, 2009 and 2010 were pretty damn good and I doubt many other drivers on the grid could have won two races in the 2009 McLaren.

Regards Hungary, yes, he should not have spun his car around where he was. Was it a punishable incident? Yes. Is it deserving of a harsher sentence than a drive through? No. You and I both agree on that from what I can tell though.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

My favourite driver is Jacques , so I am not so sure what you mean by my not liking drivers to speak out .

I am also not sure why you are saying that I want him banned for a race . I suggested nothing of the sort .

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Ok, well then to quote yourself, you wrote: "Driving into traffic , expecting them to react should be punished with far more than a drive-through ." What would you expect he be punished with?

He had a few seconds to think about the move, a very long time in F1, and pulled it on.

Wrong Lewis.

Lewis Hamilton looks forward to break | Formula 1 | Formula 1 news, live F1 | ESPN F1

Just as I wrote about Lewis head being in the correct place, here is an article where he says he looks forward to getting his head in the right place over the winter break.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

why is it always Lewis that's getting involved in this incidents?

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He's clearly not alone in "getting involved" in incidents.
Formula*1 Penalties - Viva F1

Rubens Barrichello, Fernando Alonso, Sergio Perez, Paul di Resta, Michael Schumacher and Sebastian Buemi have all been penalised for causing collisions so far this year.

I do think that 1) Hamilton is singled out by some for excessive criticism and 2) drivers generally are being penalised for comparatively inoccuous incidents. If we want to see drivers race then we have to accept that sometimes there may be unintentional contact. Clearly where there is intent action should be taken.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

He's clearly not alone in "getting involved" in incidents.
Formula 1 Penalties - Viva F1

Rubens Barrichello, Fernando Alonso, Sergio Perez, Paul di Resta, Michael Schumacher and Sebastian Buemi have all been penalised for causing collisions so far this year.

I do think that 1) Hamilton is singled out by some for excessive criticism and 2) drivers generally are being penalised for comparatively inoccuous incidents. If we want to see drivers race then we have to accept that sometimes there may be unintentional contact. Clearly where there is intent action should be taken.

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He is being singled out because he is racing at the front. The truth is if Trulli or Glock did this neither of us would be in any way bothered about it. As Schumacher and Senna said, if you look back through the entire field you'll see other incidents, it's just because we're racing at the front that people make it a talking point.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

He is being singled out because he is racing at the front. The truth is if Trulli or Glock did this neither of us would be in any way bothered about it. As Schumacher and Senna said, if you look back through the entire field you'll see other incidents, it's just because we're racing at the front that people make it a talking point.

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Speaking for myself here, this doesn't apply whatsoever. Since I don't wholly support or hate any driver/team, you won't see me doing the bashing around here. However, if some driver does something that I feel is out of order, I'll vent my views and that doesn't matter if it's Hamilton or if it's D'Ambrosio. I feel strongly that Lewis' move was out of order but if this forum could be filtered from all of the constant bashers and whiners, we might actually have a decent discussion for one. Not ones that end up as slagging matches and result in paranoia amongst some members. Otherwise, I'm just thrown in with the 'basher' crowd because I think he was a bad boy this time out.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

He's clearly not alone in "getting involved" in incidents.
Formula*1 Penalties - Viva F1

Rubens Barrichello, Fernando Alonso, Sergio Perez, Paul di Resta, Michael Schumacher and Sebastian Buemi have all been penalised for causing collisions so far this year.

I do think that 1) Hamilton is singled out by some for excessive criticism and 2) drivers generally are being penalised for comparatively inoccuous incidents. If we want to see drivers race then we have to accept that sometimes there may be unintentional contact. Clearly where there is intent action should be taken.

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Also, if you take a look at that list, his only two big ones are at Monaco and Hungary, notoriously tight circuits with next to no room for error. Malaysia was him and Alonso having brain farts. So, then that's "TWO" races out of 11 this season so far where he was "dangerous", and some haters (I find this to be the appropriate tag) are having seizures asking for his head.

Vettel in 2010 made one of the biggest bonehead move of the decade at Turkey 2010, and then almost took Webber out again at Silverstone and banged into Lewis, and then finally took Button out with an equally idiotic move at Spa, Belgium GP. Yet, I didn't see so many haters jump on the bandwagon asking for race bans. Why this much acid for Lewis?

I think it's time for these haters to figure out what problem do they really have with Lewis. Do they hate him because he's actually a great driver, probably the best in the field right now, better than their favorite driver, they know it and they can't stand him because of that? Probably every time he makes a mistake, these people can't wait to gloat.

Or is it something else.... :dozey:

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Whitmarsh is relieved :
“He stayed calm, came back, overtook two cars, came fourth, and got some valuable points. He’s conducted himself very well after the race. He’s been probed provocatively by various members of the media, who wanted some reaction about his penalty, but I think he stayed calm. He’s been mentally strong this weekend and just done a fantastic job.”

This suggests he doesn't normally stay calm , mid-race , doesn't normally conduct himself well in interviews , and isn't normally mentally strong .
And , Martin knows it .

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It suggests no such thing. If he was stating what he believed to be facts, how does that suggest that this is not usually the case? If he'd said, "Lewis was very fast today", would that suggest that Lewis is usually slow? :confused:

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

He is being singled out because he is racing at the front. The truth is if Trulli or Glock did this neither of us would be in any way bothered about it.

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A point supported by Jarno Trulli:

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"My message is clear: there is only one rulebook and it's the same for everyone: not just for the guys ahead, but also for the people at the back of the grid."

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Trulli critical of FIA over Perez incident during Hungarian Grand Prix - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com

unless i've read this wrong, I've not seen anyone who, on balance, didn't agree that a penalty was probably fair on this occasion and that Lewis was pretty careless. So waht is everyone arguing about - the massive overreaction calling for bans, more penalties and going over old incidents of both Hamilton and others.

When both his supporters and his not-fans agree he was wrong, he admits he was wrong and apologises, the other other party acceps the apology and says it wasn't a big deal and Hamilton accepts the resultant penalty WTF is everyone fighting about, apart from their own petty unsettled scores with other members, both on the pro and anti side. Get a grip guys, all this screaming is going nowhere and the more entrenched you become the more silly it looks

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Originally Posted by PSfan

I finally dloaded the race to re-watch this incident and it really saddens me to say this, but I think the majority of IRL drivers seem to have more common sense then our Lewis Hamilton does. After re watching the replay, the smart thing to do was move forward enough to get that Macs arse end off the racing line while facing incoming traffic, and then wait for a safe moment to spin around, I've seen that done thousands of times, but that seems like a difficult concept for Lewis.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQxriSd12Xo#t=4m24

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

A point supported by Jarno Trulli:
Trulli critical of FIA over Perez incident during Hungarian Grand Prix - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com

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Ìmagine if Hamilton did that and didn't concede back his position? We'd have a thread of a hundred pages now lol

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Originally Posted by Robinho

unless i've read this wrong, I've not seen anyone who, on balance, didn't agree that a penalty was probably fair on this occasion and that Lewis was pretty careless. So waht is everyone arguing about - the massive overreaction calling for bans, more penalties and going over old incidents of both Hamilton and others.

When both his supporters and his not-fans agree he was wrong, he admits he was wrong and apologises, the other other party acceps the apology and says it wasn't a big deal and Hamilton accepts the resultant penalty WTF is everyone fighting about, apart from their own petty unsettled scores with other members, both on the pro and anti side. Get a grip guys, all this screaming is going nowhere and the more entrenched you become the more silly it looks

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Pretty much everyone agrees it was just about deserving of a penalty, at least. It's those that were talking about a harsher penalty or race ban that are off their games.

Hamilton screwed up, spinning in the damp, then he did what all drivers do spun it and got on with it. He was just as much a hazard sitting in the racing line. I don't know that he saw the oncoming cars, but whatever. Teh whole thread is BS. HE DID get a penalty, sooooo, as usual six pages from the haters........

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

Ok, well then to quote yourself, you wrote: "Driving into traffic , expecting them to react should be punished with far more than a drive-through ." What would you expect he be punished with?

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Stop and go .
Number of seconds stopped would be decided by the stewards .

There's not much else you can do during the race .

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Originally Posted by nigelred5

Hamilton screwed up, spinning in the damp, then he did what all drivers do spun it and got on with it. He was just as much a hazard sitting in the racing line. I don't know that he saw the oncoming cars, but whatever. Teh whole thread is BS. HE DID get a penalty, sooooo, as usual six pages from the haters........

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:up:

It's an accetpted evil - if you can call it that, filed under That's Racing. Do what you gotta do and ask questions later.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Stop and go .
Number of seconds stopped would be decided by the stewards .

There's not much else you can do during the race .

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Fair enough. The fact that the stewards didn't give him a stop and go suggests to me that they didn't consider it a grave infringement which I believe is in line with what most people's opinions on this subject are.

I feel the stewards were being consistent with their penalty though. The lighter the crime, the lighter the punishment.

It does seem a storm in a tea cup. He spun on the damp track, was stuck in the middle and performed a spin on the spot to point in the right direction and clear the danger for other competitors. Paul took avoiding action which was OK and no collision occurred.

It's debatable whether a penalty was justified but most people accept that it was a 50/50 call and aren't too happy. He apologised to Paul after and said he didn't see him.

What's the big problem?

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Originally Posted by Retro Formula 1

It does seem a storm in a tea cup. He spun on the damp track, was stuck in the middle and performed a spin on the spot to point in the right direction and clear the danger for other competitors. Paul took avoiding action which was OK and no collision occurred.

It's debatable whether a penalty was justified but most people accept that it was a 50/50 call and aren't too happy. He apologised to Paul after and said he didn't see him.

What's the big problem?

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The problem is that as soon as Lewis is mentioned some people, instead of seeing Black, they see red. If any of the other top drivers on the grid did what Lewis did on Sunday we'd have all but forgotten about it by now.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

The problem is that as soon as Lewis is mentioned some people, instead of seeing Black, they see red. If any of the other top drivers on the grid did what Lewis did on Sunday we'd have all but forgotten about it by now.

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It's easy to throw a comment out there to try to discount opposing opinions by speculating , isn't it ?

Sorry to disappoint , but anyone out there pulling a move like that will get just as hard a time over it from me .

If any of the other top drivers out there did what Lewis did on Sunday , we'd have all forgotten about it by now , as Lewis fans only see red when he is attacked and will defend him for days .
It kinda works both ways , doesn't it ?


I do understand that you guys don't think what Lewis did was a big deal .
He's a good driver . It took a good driver to pull off that move .

But , in my eyes , the move was dangerous , and he should have stayed stationary while the others ran by , and then performed the same move without others in close proximity .

There are folks here who don't think it was worthy of punishment at all , some who believe the penalty was apt , and those like me who think it should have been harsher .
There is room for all of us .

i only scanned through some of the pages but I didn't see anyone say that there should have been no penalty, only some who said it was close call and on balance a penalty was probably deserved.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

It's easy to throw a comment out there to try to discount opposing opinions by speculating , isn't it ?

Sorry to disappoint , but anyone out there pulling a move like that will get just as hard a time over it from me .

If any of the other top drivers out there did what Lewis did on Sunday , we'd have all forgotten about it by now , as Lewis fans only see red when he is attacked and will defend him for days .
It kinda works both ways , doesn't it ?


I do understand that you guys don't think what Lewis did was a big deal .
He's a good driver . It took a good driver to pull off that move .

But , in my eyes , the move was dangerous , and he should have stayed stationary while the others ran by , and then performed the same move without others in close proximity .

There are folks here who don't think it was worthy of punishment at all , some who believe the penalty was apt , and those like me who think it should have been harsher .
There is room for all of us .

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You may indeed be one of the few that would actually criticise any other driver for the same move but, since I can only ever remember seeing you criticise Lewis, I'll not buy into that 100%, just yet.

I don't see a "Why no penalty for Perez pass on Trulli?" thread. Do you?

That was far worse an incident and a total display of cheating by Perez. I can only imagine the uproar from members here if Lewis did that.

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Originally Posted by Robinho

i only scanned through some of the pages but I didn't see anyone say that there should have been no penalty, only some who said it was close call and on balance a penalty was probably deserved.

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Well, if you read through the thread, you'll see some were calling for a race ban for Lewis which, obviously, is ridiculous. For such a non event in a race some forum members sure would like to give out race bans lightly. In reality, it's simply because it's Lewis.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

You may indeed be one of the few that would actually criticise any other driver for the same move but, since I can only ever remember seeing you criticise Lewis, I'll not buy into that 100%, just yet.

I don't see a "Why no penalty for Perez pass on Trulli?" thread. Do you?

That was far worse an incident and a total display of cheating by Perez. I can only imagine the uproar from members here if Lewis did that.

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Perhaps there should be a Trulli/Perez thread .
You should start one , if you think it's far worse .


Maybe it was cheating , but was it dangerous ? In my opinion , no .

I'll keep my opinion on Perez for your thread .

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Originally Posted by Robinho

i only scanned through some of the pages but I didn't see anyone say that there should have been no penalty, only some who said it was close call and on balance a penalty was probably deserved.

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Just three posts back , Knockie said "It's debatable whether a penalty was justifed" .
Wouldn't that be a debate between penalty and no penalty ?

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

anyone out there pulling a move like that will get just as hard a time over it from me .

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Same. Mark my words.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Perhaps there should be a Trulli/Perez thread .
You should start one , if you think it's far worse .


Maybe it was cheating , but was it dangerous ? In my opinion , no .

I'll keep my opinion on Perez for your thread .

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Couldn't agree more. People are putting words in people's mouths. Who the hell is black knight to tell either of us whether we would care or not about another driver doing what Lewis did? :confused: There seems to be a hardcore group of fanboi's who thing that anyone who is saying something not nice about Lewis MUST be anti-Lewis and would happily allow others to get away with things that Lewis does and gets criticised for.