New car news!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chuck34

I know I'm comming off as defending the league and the car at all costs. I am not. I don't think it's perfect. There are lots of areas for improvement. But many of you are just ridiculous. There is one car that does not have the final body work. We have not seen any other alternative designs, we have not heard how it drives, we have not seen any times, we really don't know anything yet. This was the car's first shake down. Give it a chance, it has many of the features that the "fans" have said they want. That's all I'm saying.

---

Chuck, You are right - BUT - I think it is probably important for Indycar to hear fan feedback (good and bad) while there is still an opportunity to change the car.... IF they get complacent and this car is the final product I'll be pretty disappointed but there is still plenty of room to impress.....

I think what a few of the guys are saying (and I also do not disagree with this) - is that we are putting too much stock in the new car. In the big scheme of things is is an evolution, not a revolution. The die has already been cast that the new car will NOT redefine the sport - it can only offer an incremental improvement - which is fine but it is not likely to change the path of the sport dramatically...

Champcar pretty much did the same thing (made the same mistake??) with the DP-01 - it was nice but really it was not much of a departure from the Lola - I think they played it too conservatively and Indycar appears to be headed down the same path.....

That being said, as long as the new car is an incremental improvement and it helps build the sport a little more , it will serve its purpose.... If we are looking for it to double the fan base, it is not going to happen...

"Indycar! We got less turbulence!"


That's catchy ......

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SarahFan

"Indycar! We got less turbulence!"


That's catchy ......

---

There is more to it than that. But you are too obtuse to open your eyes. You just want to b!tch. Go ahead. If you don't want to have a rational conversation I'm done with you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chris R

Chuck, You are right - BUT - I think it is probably important for Indycar to hear fan feedback (good and bad) while there is still an opportunity to change the car.... IF they get complacent and this car is the final product I'll be pretty disappointed but there is still plenty of room to impress.....

I think what a few of the guys are saying (and I also do not disagree with this) - is that we are putting too much stock in the new car. In the big scheme of things is is an evolution, not a revolution. The die has already been cast that the new car will NOT redefine the sport - it can only offer an incremental improvement - which is fine but it is not likely to change the path of the sport dramatically...

Champcar pretty much did the same thing (made the same mistake??) with the DP-01 - it was nice but really it was not much of a departure from the Lola - I think they played it too conservatively and Indycar appears to be headed down the same path.....

That being said, as long as the new car is an incremental improvement and it helps build the sport a little more , it will serve its purpose.... If we are looking for it to double the fan base, it is not going to happen...

---

What else is there other than incremental, evolutionary improvements? Try to have a revolutional approach and there will be many cries of "that's not IndyCar", etc. Again what other approach would you have? Normally aspirated engines to turbo charged ones open to having single or twin turbos, different body kits vs spec chassis, etc. That isn't enough of a change for you? What other changes would you advocate for that would still be within the character of an IndyCar?

It isn't perfect, but I think it's about the best we could hope for at this point. And no we shouldn't pin all our hopes on having a new car.

Bottom line chuck is that without a new track record at Indy the entire point of a new car is futile......all the new tweaks won't mean a thing....

And yes... At this point we don't know whether it will or not....but indications are it won't be faster at the speedway.... And while you and I and hoop and Gary might be stoked about a track record at long beach 99.999 percent of the folks won't know or don't care

Racing... Especially Indycar that has the I500 as it's backbone.... It's very lifeblood is built on speed....that's the only rational point worth discussing


IMO of coarse

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SarahFan

Bottom line chuck is that without a new track record at Indy the entire point of a new car is futile......all the new tweaks won't mean a thing....

And yes... At this point we don't know whether it will or not....but indications are it won't be faster at the speedway.... And while you and I and hoop and Gary might be stoked about a track record at long beach 99.999 percent of the folks won't know or don't care

Racing... Especially Indycar that has the I500 as it's backbone.... It's very lifeblood is built on speed....that's the only rational point worth discussing


IMO of coarse

---

Well then we need to pack up and go home now. Stop wasting everyone's time and money. Because there will NOT be a new track record at Indy in the near future. I hope I'm wrong because I'd love to see it. But it just ain't gonna happen. So if that's the only thing that drives you, I don't know what to tell you.

When was the last time there was a new track record at Monaco? Doesn't seem to hurt F1 too much. How about the last time there was a new track record at Daytona? Didn't hurt them from at least '88 to '00. There is more to life than records, as much as you and I, and many others would like to see them. It's not the end-all-be-all of the series.

F1 and NASCAR don't have the i500 as it's focal point...major distinction

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SarahFan

"Indycar! We got less turbulence!"


That's catchy ......

---

What's YOUR solution that has a realistic chance of being implemented?

Gary

At this post point post split era etc the sport of Indycar needs a platform to build On.... And less turbulence isn't it

Wow, talk about a buzz kill going on here~!

I’ll try to fill in the blanks that will hopefully make a little sense, and stop the crazy arguments here.


Just because a car is new, does not mean it is FASTER! Case in point, Audi recently replaced its 360HP V8, with a supercharged 330HP V6 in the S4/S5 line of cars. The new V6 car is slower, yet costs the same as the V8 it replaced, and might be quicker. The point here is there are multiple factors to consider in designing and building a new car, and speed is just one component. In Audi’s case they gave up HP in order to get better fuel economy.


So what was the design criteria for the new car? I think this should be stated, prior to having elongated arguments.

The design criteria was based on the following (not in order):

The car has some innovative safety features, that include the rear crash structure, body work extended farther out to prevent wheel-wheel contact, driver leg support and crash cell, in addition to the teathers, and attenuator from the previous car. The anti-stall system the cars will have should make it safer for track workers, as the engine should keep running when a driver spins, and they should be able to get underway on their own. Increased size in the tub allows for more seat material and the head rest restraint has increased a bit as well. The car has some very innovative side impact and penetration protections as well.

-Lower cost to purchase

This was a big factor. Why not go with eight speed V12 engines, since they would be faster? Well, as you increase parts, you increase price. The V6 turbo configuration is a great solution to preserve cost on the engine side. As the series decides to provide more or less power, you simply dial up or dial down the boost. You could run the same engine block foryears, with slight changes from time to time, while maintaining cost. A six speed was chosen, instead of seven speed gearbox. The number of aero bits, winglets, wing elements was reduced. The front wing on ovals can only be adjusted as a whole, not left or right adjustments, again in the name of cost. The number of suspension options was reduced.

I still think they need to have only one body kit next year,and I believe it is being discussed.

-Lower cost to maintain and operate

Sometimes, something has a higher initial price, but saves over the long hall. The new car will use carbon fiber brake rotors, which while more expensive can last longer than the current steel rotors. They also reduce the unsprung weigtht and rotating mass. The new under tray is a split floor. So, if you crash the right side of the car, you only replace the right side under tray. Same with some of the body panels. The choice of gear ratios, wings, and other items have also been reduced. Reducing the operating costs was one of the biggest goals, because the savings are cumulative (from year 1, 2, and so on). Dallara and other manufacturers have done agreat job balancing performance with cost reduction. The revised front suspension geometry to pushrod (from pull rod), allows easier service for the front springs and shocks.

In most areas, only certain manufacturers are approved, which lowers costs (ie, Bembo supplies the brakes for all teams, instead of just a few, which would create higher piece prices)

-Stronger

The front wing, rear crash structure and body work, all seem to be in place so the cars could handle rubbing and scrapping each other better. The goal was to allow some close quarter racing, without pieces flying off at the slights hint of contact. This should also prevent yellows for debris.

-Lighter

Reducing the mass of the car was one of the goals, in order to increase acceleration. Speed is nice,but old F=ma is key. By reducing the mass, the force required to accelerate the car is less. And, if they produce the same amount of HP(or more) the accelerations will be quicker. An F1 car does not have the top speed of an Indycar, but it is much quicker as it accelerates and decelerates.



-Capable of operating at all venues (Superspeedway, Roadcourse, Short oval, Street course)


‘Nuff said. No other series operates on the variety of tracks the Indycar series visits. In reality, the entire car is a compromise since it is built for such a variety of circuits.


-Suitable sponsor placement areas

In addition to cleaning up the air flow around the car, the airscoop has been retained to provide a bigger advertising area. Some of the lines of the car are in place to better allow sponsorship and logos to be viewed. Certainly a tricky part of the design, but you have to keep those who pay the bills happy!

-New Technologies

Going back to bigger tunnels, which produce the bulk of the down force, should allow for closer racing. There are some new bits, most in the electronics area, that are very impressive especially given the cost restraints.



So, if everyone could just take a big breath, exhale, and enjoy the rest of the season and next year’s new car!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by garyshell

What's YOUR solution that has a realistic chance of being implemented?

Gary

---

Did I not lay it out earlier?

At some point the sport either embraces what's it's about at it's core or it continues to wallow in relative obscurity

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SarahFan

F1 and NASCAR don't have the i500 as it's focal point...major distinction

---

Who said that they did? Take the case of NASCAR, it has the Daytona 500 as its focal point and no one seems to think a "new track record" is essential there for the entire NASCAR series to survive. And before you trot out their declining attendance, they have a lot of other issues all well documented, but not once has record speeds at Daytona been mentioned as a root cause.

This one trick pony of a new track record every year at Indy is the only way to save the series ignores the fact that there are many OTHER races on the schedule each year. The series is every bit as dependent on their success to survive. Without the other races there is no financial model by which the series or the teams for that matter can survive.

Gary

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SarahFan

Did I not lay it out earlier?

At some point the sport either embraces what's it's about at it's core or it continues to wallow in relative obscurity

---

What is it "about"? A new track record every year at ONE out all of the races they run? The Bonneville Salt Flats speed weeks is about a new track record each time a competitor runs, that is their core. The core of Indycar is racing. Speed records are not racing, they are engineering exercises. The new track records are a side show on one day in May each year. Does the average fan, who are the bread & butter not to mention the money source for the series, remember the record holder from one year to the next, or do they remember who won the race. I don't recall the record holder being interviewed after the race, making the rounds of the late night talk shows, or being featured in magazine articles.

Gary

How you a miss a point by such a wide margin is beyond me

So Ken, suppose we break all time track records at 3/4 of the tracks, is that good?

Let's be perfectly clear .... The daytona500 is not the series focal point in anywhere near the fashion the I500 is too indycars ... That's a fact

Also fact ... At this point in the sports evolution no one knows the winner or the track record holder ..


And let me be perfectly clear ... I'm not poopooing all the EE you and chuck are laying out about the new car ... I get it ... And as a CURRENT fan I understand and appreciate it

But not a single one of those items the EE laid out is going to attract a new fan


IMO of coarse

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hoop-98

So Ken, suppose we break all time track records at 3/4 of the tracks, is that good?

---

Would Indy be one of them?

Again.... I appreciate your interst in the new car and all that comes alOng with it..... Does your next door neighbor car that the chassis is 100lbs lighter?

Nope, not at Indy, and he doesn't care what they qualify at.
There is no statistical correlation between Indy Pole Speed and popularity.
I know ratings and attendance are down, so how many factors have changed beside your holy grail, I'll help you, hundreds.
We have had cycles of decreasing speeds throughout the history of the Indy 500 with growing popularity at the same time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SarahFan

But not a single one of those items the EE laid out is going to attract a new fan


IMO of coarse

---

The ability for the car to drive fast, on a variety of tracks is and has been a big factor in attracking fans.

CART (yes, the good ole days) grew its fan base due to the diversity of tracks we raced on. The IRL tried the oval route-FAIL!, and Champcar tried the road course route-FAIL!

The improved racing (and i think this year for teh most part has been tremendous) will also attract fans. Seeing open wheel cars bang and bump, without flying into the stands or creating yellow after yellow everytime a little piece falls off, will also help teh show.

The new car also has a look, love it or hate it, that is polarizing. I remember back in the day, when Howard Cosell was both the most liked and least liked football announcer! It is good news, and will help.

Hopefully GM will promote the series as well as Honda has done, and they will need to as Firestone is going away (the promotion part).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hoop-98

Get rid of those ugly winglets on jets. so what if they work, I don't like them. :)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._and_AB319.JPG

---

Umm you do realise why aircraft and race cars have winglets right? It's not for looks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daniel

Umm you do realise why aircraft and race cars have winglets right? It's not for looks.

---

I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm from Hoop.

If you were developing a race series from scratch with the i500 as it's focal point would your first step be speed or a strong front wing?

Some of you need to take a step back a remember your already fans .. Diehards in fact... You have a fundamental Intrest and understanding of the new car .. It's tweaks nuances etc...

I just explained this discussion to my buddy ( seriously this time) ... He's fundamentally a stick and ball guy .. But has been to LB and Fontana with me...

His comment ... 'the new car sounds like a double decaf shot of espresso !'

EE you make my point

Cart built a sport and fan base with the I500 as it's focal point as well as the rest you mention ... Without it it went out of biz twice....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daniel

Umm you do realise why aircraft and race cars have winglets right? It's not for looks.

---

Sponsor logos!!! ;) We know why they are there aerodynamically, however very few aircraft since the Wright Brothers had winglets or endplates until VERY recently. They are not truly necessary, but they do make hte aerodynamics far better.

Ken do you honestly think that the ONLY way to grow the sport is to have a new record at Indy?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EagleEye

The ability for the car to drive fast, on a variety of tracks is and has been a big factor in attracking fans.

CART (yes, the good ole days) grew its fan base due to the diversity of tracks we raced on. The IRL tried the oval route-FAIL!, and Champcar tried the road course route-FAIL!

The improved racing (and i think this year for teh most part has been tremendous) will also attract fans. Seeing open wheel cars bang and bump, without flying into the stands or creating yellow after yellow everytime a little piece falls off, will also help teh show.

The new car also has a look, love it or hate it, that is polarizing. I remember back in the day, when Howard Cosell was both the most liked and least liked football announcer! It is good news, and will help.

Hopefully GM will promote the series as well as Honda has done, and they will need to as Firestone is going away (the promotion part).

---

I completely agree with all you said.

Diversity in the schedule is huge, the competition has been the best in a decade, and a new look to the car and a new engine package creates buzz. All that Inycar needs for the future development of the sport.

Innovation (and thus novelty) is a HUGE part of IndyCar's past, and is a key reason imo why it is not thrilling the crowds at present. Record-breaking is a key part of innovation. What IndyCar should mean to casual and non-fans is cutting-edge racing at dangerous speeds with some of the greatest drivers in the world. I believe that guys like Franchitti, Power, Dixon, Bourdais, Sato, etc. are all valuable assets to the series and many of them truly are the "best of the best". Also, the racing is still fairly dangerous. However, the cutting-edge aspects I am referring to are completely lost. We need to be hearing rumors about "KV getting a new tuned up Lotus V6 by Long Beach, that may be faster than the competition" or "Andretti Autosport trying a new body kit that they think will get them up front at Indy". You know, people actually talking about the CARS and the technology, not just who wrecked who in two-wide restart last week. NASCAR can get away without this sort of thing, but what makes IndyCar racing unique is that it is more on the cutting-edge technology-wise... Except, nowadays it isn't, or at least it isn't unless you're hiding in Penske's garage on a computer somewhere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chuck34

Ken do you honestly think that the ONLY way to grow the sport is to have a new record at Indy?

---

No.... Read what I have actually written

It's logical first step towards rebranding a sport that desperately needs it


Indycar: check out our stiff front wing! Just doesn't carry much weight imo

CORSA TV: IndyCar 2012 - YouTube


Nice camera views! But please no airbox!! Save the hoop!!

And why isn't there a spy out there posting videos similar to this one!

Champ Car Panoz DP-01 testing at Sebring 1 - YouTube

I loved seeing these surface!!

I do not like the new car.

Although some on the forum and the author of this article seem to agree that CART seemed to INVENT the rear-engine Indy car, CART just accomplished a lot in progressive technology, stability, safety and the like as those before it progressed through the years. The 2012 Dallara Indy car seemingly plays its part to continue that historical progression. To the general fan or TV viewer, he/she is likely to see a rear-engine car with front and rear wings at speed, just like previous editions of Indy cars have been, and may notice a few "tweaks." To THAT fan, the transformation will not be particularly radical. To us, it will be. This article provides a good explanation and comparison of what we're using and what we will use next year.

AUTO RACING - INDYCAR: Inside The 2012 Dallara

Spec Dallara chassis next year.

AUTO RACING - INDYCAR: Aero Kits Officially On Hold Until 2013

Pffft... 3 years we have waited for this and they act like they haven't had the time to prepare for it. Andretti's just happy he can afford to run a crap 4 car team again... "It's not about quality, it's about quantity!" Foyt has never had the bucks to run a competitive team except for when everyone else was just as bust as he was in the early Double A IRL years.

Well, once again Indycar has managed to pretty much appease everyone except for the fan.

Congrats!

Is it true no p2p next year?....

Im also hearing the car will not be less weight when the final product gets delivered ... Anyone else hearing that?

No P2P, I don't think anyone is suggesting it won't be lighter, in RC trim the brakes and engine are over 100 pounds lighter.

We won't really know where this car stands until spring testing.

The good, lighter to some degree, more powerful to some degree, substantially less drag and more downforce. 45 per cent cheaper, easier maintenance and crash repair.

The bad, all the unknowns.

When we first tested the Dallara on a RC it was about 10 seconds slower than it eventually ran and it was just a slightly modified chassis.

We can all guess and make projections, until the facts play out next year, it is pretty clear those guesses will primarily be hope for failure, hope for success, determined more by past allegiance than any fact.

rh

When was IndyCar/CART racing most popular and why? I think the answers to many of these questions can be found here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shazbot

When was IndyCar/CART racing most popular and why? I think the answers to many of these questions can be found here.

---

Wow man, do you want a bigger boat? That's one hell of a bait you threw out there...... ;)

Mario Andretti Unplugged Part 1 - YouTube

â–º Mario Andretti Unplugged Part 2


Nice perspective from a legend of racing. Looking forward to watching the ball roll.

2012 dallara-honda audio available here. Top of the page.

Sounds pretty ham good...