Racism

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Originally Posted by X-ecutioner

What you described there is something that pretty much every middle class man has to go through their life, and trust me I've seen much, much worse, not talking here about me but an observation of an average middle class man back home. You've got it WAY better, trust me. So, when you talk about discrimination against your sex and age, that's how your society is structured and almost everyone, black or white or brown or yellow, has to go through this.

But answer me this, have you ever been racially discriminated against or how often have you seen white folks getting racially discriminated against? While I've seen plenty of guys getting shortchanged only because of the color of their skin.

I agree that there are some idiots who cry "Racism!" at the drop of the hat, but there are plenty others that don't, and it's wrong to generalize everyone in the same pool, when unknown to you they might have gone through something totally legit. Add also to the fact that racial discrimination during childhood can scar a person mentally in a bad way, and hence they can become oversensitive to these things.

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The point I was trying to make is that we can all be sensitive about discrimination and find it un every walk of life. Just because discrimination is endemic in a culture does not make it right and a person that is discriminated against because of the colour of their skin, their sexual orientation, their physical ability, their sex or any other aspect apart from their ability is wrong in my opinion.

Therefore, I can consider myself to be non-discriminatory because I believe that all types of discrimination are wrong, and not just the ones that suit my view point. Others may disagree and deem that a white middle class man can be discriminated against because he deserves it or whatever. When we go down the road of what type of descrimination is fair, then we introduce resentment and mistrust. We are also then incapable of making a unbiased decision on how to deal with descrimination. How can we say that someone referring to a slave is wrong but someone being denied work because of their ethnicity is right? Yet on this forum, people have expressed outrage at someone making a rascist comment, claiming long term damage to people etc but shrug off as acceptable denial of work of middle class men which could lead to a life of povery and social injustice.

On our sliding scale of acceptability, which is worse. Someone making a racist joke or someone not being allowed to work?

Believe it or not, I am not making the case here for White, Middle class, employed, able bodied men. I think we have broader shoulders and by and large, can get on with our lives without standing on a soap box. BUT, perhaps some other groups could be as pragmatic and not get so hot under the collar about infrequant instances or one-offs that in the great scheme of things, DONT REALLY MATTER!!!

There are many serious issues and ramifications of discrimination in this world. There are many, many more minor issues that deflect away from the focus that should be put on the great injustices.

All I am saying is that if we acknowledge discrimination exsists virtually everywhere, instead of cherry picking the bits that suit our view, then we can have a much more grown up discussion and action plan about what is serious and what is merely unpleasant.

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Originally Posted by skc

The point I was trying to make is that we can all be sensitive about discrimination and find it un every walk of life. Just because discrimination is endemic in a culture does not make it right and a person that is discriminated against because of the colour of their skin, their sexual orientation, their physical ability, their sex or any other aspect apart from their ability is wrong in my opinion.

Therefore, I can consider myself to be non-discriminatory because I believe that all types of discrimination are wrong, and not just the ones that suit my view point. Others may disagree and deem that a white middle class man can be discriminated against because he deserves it or whatever. When we go down the road of what type of descrimination is fair, then we introduce resentment and mistrust. We are also then incapable of making a unbiased decision on how to deal with descrimination. How can we say that someone referring to a slave is wrong but someone being denied work because of their ethnicity is right? Yet on this forum, people have expressed outrage at someone making a rascist comment, claiming long term damage to people etc but shrug off as acceptable denial of work of middle class men which could lead to a life of povery and social injustice.

On our sliding scale of acceptability, which is worse. Someone making a racist joke or someone not being allowed to work?

Believe it or not, I am not making the case here for White, Middle class, employed, able bodied men. I think we have broader shoulders and by and large, can get on with our lives without standing on a soap box. BUT, perhaps some other groups could be as pragmatic and not get so hot under the collar about infrequant instances or one-offs that in the great scheme of things, DONT REALLY MATTER!!!

There are many serious issues and ramifications of discrimination in this world. There are many, many more minor issues that deflect away from the focus that should be put on the great injustices.

All I am saying is that if we acknowledge discrimination exsists virtually everywhere, instead of cherry picking the bits that suit our view, then we can have a much more grown up discussion and action plan about what is serious and what is merely unpleasant.

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I agree with you wholeheartedly that ANY type of discrimination is just wrong. In fact, I have in my life never approved of any discrimination against any race, caste or creed. It's very unacceptable to me when a group of black rappers talk about white folks badly, generalizing them, without understanding that the innocent white folks today have nothing to do with whatever happened to the black folks decades or centuries ago. Crying racism over that stuff today and blaming the white folks is just wrong.

This thread was never started with a serious POV, only displaying my shock at hearing something like that in this day and age, and that some people still have views like these, because there's always some degree of truth behind every joke. And that "joke" some people might find funny, but it isn't funny to me. I never said a certain type of discrimination was more wrong than others. Discrimination as a whole is just WRONG.

And like I said before, that yes, life is hard for a middle class man, as you said in the UK, and in the US too during this recession, but it's even more so in India as I have witnessed first hand. At least you have a minimum wage. Imagine people working for peanuts, and then getting denied for work because someone less skilled but from a lower caste quota got their job because of this silly rule from the government. A kid with a much lesser score in the entrance exam gets to go to medical college, just because he belongs to a scheduled caste or scheduled tribe of India compared to someone who actually worked his ass off and gets 80%, but that's not enough because he's normal. This type of discrimination exists everywhere, and frankly doesn't surprise me because I'm used to it.

People can't do anything about these, so they learn to live with it. Racial discrimination however is different, because now it relates to appearance, and it's similar to a fat kid going through childhood, he develops a pretty strong inferiority complex that remains with him throughout his life. Probably racism based on physical appearance or skin color, especially in this world obsessed with beauty and superficial outside appearance, has a similar effect on people, which makes them more sensitive and it doesn't take much to provoke them. Not saying what is more or less important, I'm just illustrating the differences.

I am saddened (but not surprised) to hear your experience with Indian employment discrimination.

Thank you for this great insight and your views on rascism and discrimination. Trully thought provoking and eloquently made.

:up:

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Originally Posted by X-ecutioner

Now see, what you call a fact and easily brand as nothing but overreaction is something more complex. It's easy to pass judgment when you haven't actually experienced it. You would have no idea unless you've actually lived your whole life as a minority or gone through discrimination on a daily basis, to understand why people's sensitivity gets molded this way and why they react in a certain manner.

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In the U.S. (I am not speaking of other countries) supposed leaders, and it only takes one person, use/cling to past transgressions- real or otherwise- to foment hatred, for reason of power.

The resulting -usually- ethnic hatred, thrives on the us verses them politic.

Those in a community that do not subscribe to such hate based politics often suffer greatly for not doing so.
An American Indian gentleman I once gave a ride to, when asked why in the U.S. Indian - non-indian relations seem to never improve, told me it was because "leaders" preach hatred and separation.
He was hitching back to Montana as there was no longer work in Minn., but had originally left after he had two sisters and a brother killed, in his words "for not being Indian enough."

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

In the U.S. (I am not speaking of other countries) supposed leaders, and it only takes one person, use/cling to past transgressions- real or otherwise- to foment hatred, for reason of power.

The resulting -usually- ethnic hatred, thrives on the us verses them politic.

Those in a community that do not subscribe to such hate based politics often suffer greatly for not doing so.
An American Indian gentleman I once gave a ride to, when asked why in the U.S. Indian - non-indian relations seem to never improve, told me it was because "leaders" preach hatred and separation.
He was hitching back to Montana as there was no longer work in Minn., but had originally left after he had two sisters and a brother killed, in his words "for not being Indian enough."

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Well, that's just sad...nothing else to say.

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Originally Posted by skc

I am saddened (but not surprised) to hear your experience with Indian employment discrimination.

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There was an incident in the news of a guy committing suicide. He was working for 5 years in some IT company doing data entry work, relatively menial, but he earned only about 2500 rupees per month, which is roughly $55 per month! Add to this, he was married and had 2 kids. No job security, nothing. A family of four supported by ONLY $55 per month! His wife worked as a maid, and they too are paid peanuts I guess, since there's no minimum wage. If I remember correctly, he also used to travel 1 hour every day to work.

Well, so he fell sick and the company fired him for not showing up to work for a week and hired someone from a scheduled caste/tribe as they were from a reserved quota. I guess the pressure of feeding his family was too much and he ended it. Terrible. All kinds of struggles, just because of a stupid government rule.

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Originally Posted by skc

Thank you for this great insight and your views on rascism and discrimination. Trully thought provoking and eloquently made.

:up:

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Thank you to you too for the sane discussion. :) :up:

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Originally Posted by X-ecutioner

Terrible. All kinds of struggles, just because of a stupid government rule.

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How is it the Government's fault?

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

How is it the Government's fault?

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Because the government put the rule in place. In fact, if I remember correctly, there was even some tax rebate offered for private companies that hired those from scheduled caste/tribes. Plus they have seats secured in medical schools, engineering colleges etc. as part of a quota, also jobs in government sectors and banks. There were plenty of strikes/demonstrations against this.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

How is it the Government's fault?

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I'm surprised. Don't you think everything is the Government's fault?

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

X...the sad reality of it is, Europeans used to ridicule the Americans for their views on blacks and their place in America. Yet, most of the openly rude racism is in Europe....towards blacks, Indians, Arabs, Turks, Gypsy's or Jews. Not to say everyone in Europe is racist, but racism and bigotry is alive in well everywhere in the civilized world. The thing is, sometimes it is institutionalized and not what it appears to be.....

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Mark, we agree on this. There was a post just before yours about the gentleman from India with the Romanian wife. His showed the Nazi element involved in soccer. This permeates Europe. Very sad. They are call Ulta's or Ultra's. Big clubs, mostly mainland Europe have these fringe groups with no interest in soccer. However, they have a huge interest in racism.

There was a time in English Football when a black player had to endure vicious taunts not only from rival supporters but from his own club fans. This was twenty years ago and maybe some of our British fans can enlighten me as to the situation now. It does seem better. Bad to see these hard right groups emerging with a combined IQ of possibly 75 but led by those with substantially more. Sheep.

I don't think 'hard right groups' are a great problem. They occasionally come out of the woodwork and gain undue prominence but their influence is negligible and they are best ignored. Far more pernicious in the UK at least is the apparent increase in those who believe that making racist, homophobic, etc remarks is acceptable on the grounds that to do so is 'politically incorrect'. The practitioners of such nonsense are always deeply tiresome, witless individuals of the first order.

wow , where doesn't racism exist...

you just have to ignore some things and move on i guess

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Originally Posted by harsha

wow , where doesn't racism exist...

you just have to ignore some things and move on i guess

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Bingo.

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Originally Posted by X-ecutioner

Because the government put the rule in place. In fact, if I remember correctly, there was even some tax rebate offered for private companies that hired those from scheduled caste/tribes. Plus they have seats secured in medical schools, engineering colleges etc. as part of a quota, also jobs in government sectors and banks. There were plenty of strikes/demonstrations against this.

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And those rules caused someone to commit suicide?
That is totally illogical.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

And those rules caused someone to commit suicide?
That is totally illogical.

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So is the state of mind of anyone who wishes to commit suicide. Reason and logic don't come into the decision.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

So is the state of mind of anyone who wishes to commit suicide. Reason and logic don't come into the decision.

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By it's very definition Suicide cannot be caused by force. If forced then it is homicide.

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Definition of SUICIDE
1a : the act or an instance of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally especially by a person of years of discretion and of sound mind b : ruin of one's own interests <political suicide> c : apoptosis <cell suicide>
2: one that commits or attempts suicide

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

By it's very definition Suicide cannot be caused by force. If forced then it is homicide.

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What on earth are you on about? In what sense does that refer to anything I posted?

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

And those rules caused someone to commit suicide?
That is totally illogical.

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Do you have problems understanding plain English or are you just trolling? I never said stupid government rules cause someone to commit suicide. What I said was that they make life harder for people working in the government sector, and lately in the private sector. If someone commits suicide, it's their choice, not the government's. I thought this was pretty obvious.

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Originally Posted by harsha

wow , where doesn't racism exist...

you just have to ignore some things and move on i guess

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Exactly. If you start responding to every little thing, it's gonna be a long frustrating day.

Well I think suicide is a personal preference. Certainly things can cause one to take this route and hopefully we can sense that and try to help. But at the end of the day people who commit suicide usually do that in spite of people intervening. One of my best friend committed suicide and I often thought I should have done more. Then a friend of mine who knew at least three people who committed suicide told me to leave it alone. I offered friendship at no cost and would have be at his side in a moments notice if he asked. I suppose economic conditions played into the decision, but at the end he knew he had friends that would get him through. But on the other side of the coin I probably would not seek help from friends in time of crisis. Maybe family. Some people just decide they don't want to live anymore and for my personal reasons I want them to. It is not up to me.. I will help just about anyone who is contemplating suicide - but just because the decision is quite final. I was close enough to this person that he could have called and told me "HELP"
And Visa Versa.

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Originally Posted by X-ecutioner

You said at the start of your post that you're not in denial of such cases, but later you completely contradicted yourself. And just wonderful, so she's probably lying to promote her career, but NO! there can be absolutely NO racism or ethnic hatred or discrimination in Romania in Mr. gadjo dilo's opinion. Romanians are God's gift to the world, and when they fart only bunnies come out, sprinkling flowers, spreading joy and prosperity everywhere.

Why do you have such a hard time admitting that there MIGHT be racist people in your country? I mean you've heard more than enough accounts, but yet you keep trying to dismiss them as lies or in some cases obsession or oversensitivity. This is straight up denial man. I know you're proud of your country and all, but at least try to open your mind to the possibility of something. I am an Indian and I'm man enough to admit that there are plenty of racist incidents and racism in India, which I'm not proud of.

And why the heck would she lie about what happened to her in Romania to move her career forward in America man? I've actually met some Americans who don't even know if a country called Romania exists. They thought it dissolved into Russia. :laugh: She would get more traction if she said the same lie about a place like UK or Germany, would get way much more press. On top of this, she's a well established singer, and a talented and active one at that too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christina_Milian. As far as acting goes, she's nothing special, but still worthwhile. Also, her ONLY racism complaint was when she came to Romania, so this is clearly not a person who cries racism at every chance.

As for Wesley Snipes and 50 Cent goes, I'm going to take a page out of your book and deny that they DIDN'T have a bad experience. Maybe they had to face racism, but didn't tell anyone. ) In all seriousness though, Snipes is a major movie star and well known, so is 50 Cent as a musician. You can just see Romanian teenagers all dressing up like him, trying to imitate the rapper dress code, while Romanians have not been exposed to Christina Milian that much, so I guess that explains it.

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Now wait a minute...If that is what you understand from my posts you're completely wrong. I want to underline that romanians as a nation aren't racist ( but I admit they're a bit nationalist :laugh: ) but as every forest has its dryness there are cases when some of them become offensive. But even in those cases it's most likely stupidity than hatred. The incident in the restaurant was obviously a joke and if you like to persist in your belief then be healthy to do it.
As for Christina Millian, you yourself answered the question. It's easy to say bad things about a country when most of the readers don't know if it even exists. Saying she was discriminated in Germany ( who would believe this? )would have a less impact than saying it happened in some exotic place.
Then I see you don't understand our psychology at all. A black person is a black person no matter it's famous or not. But a beautiful woman no matter what colour she has is less probable to be the target of offences than an ugly white/black/yellow/green(:laugh :) person. ( which of course doesn't mean that her "assets " aren't marked with trivial expressions :laugh: ).

X-ecutioner, I blame you for changing my behaviour! Never in my life I turned my head to study a person. Even if they were a VIP or a woman whose outfit I wanted to copy. But yesterday I was on an escalator with a black guy ( fatality! haven't met one in flesh and blood for weeks ) and we were shoulder to shoulder so I couldn't see his face. Suddenly I became curious: how dark is he? Darker than a southern indian? So when we got off I turned my head and stared for a while. Then I thought: What if he's a member of some forum and he'll start a topic about a weird woman who looked at him as he was a rara avis?

And stop calling me " man " and " mr. ". Everybody knows I'm a woman ( didn't dare to say "lady" :laugh: ) and I might think you're a misogynist ( to use an euphemism for another type of discrimination).

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Originally Posted by X-ecutioner

Romanians are God's gift to the world, and when they fart only bunnies come out, sprinkling flowers, spreading joy and prosperity everywhere..

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This was really mean to say but what can I expect from someone without the minimal sense of humour?
If I was jewish and guiding by the principle " eye for eye and tooth for tooth " I could say: well, we're not perfect but not that bad either:http://guzgan.ro/5376-frumoasa-india-17-poze.html
But I'm an othodox living in the magnificent (scarcely because it's far from being perfect ) and colurful world of the Balkans and I just say : forgive him God cos he doesn't know what he's saying. And I just hope that you'll remember how nice I spoke about your country despite seeing hundreds of disgustful pics like those.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Now wait a minute...If that is what you understand from my posts you're completely wrong. I want to underline that romanians as a nation aren't racist ( but I admit they're a bit nationalist ) but as every forest has its dryness there are cases when some of them become offensive. But even in those cases it's most likely stupidity than hatred. The incident in the restaurant was obviously a joke and if you like to persist in your belief then be healthy to do it.
As for Christina Millian, you yourself answered the question. It's easy to say bad things about a country when most of the readers don't know if it even exists. Saying she was discriminated in Germany ( who would believe this? )would have a less impact than saying it happened in some exotic place.
Then I see you don't understand our psychology at all. A black person is a black person no matter it's famous or not. But a beautiful woman no matter what colour she has is less probable to be the target of offences than an ugly white/black/yellow/green() person. ( which of course doesn't mean that her "assets " aren't marked with trivial expressions :laugh: ).

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Well, this will be a never ending thread if it goes on like this. I see you're pretty persistent in your beliefs, so I won't try to refute that any more, because this is like banging my head against a wall or playing a trumpet in front of a buffalo, or something to that effect. :D But would you agree that what you describe as "we" Romanians could just be your and only your opinion, right? It's like you're just in complete denial that your fellow compatriots COULD be wrong. Give them a chance. :p

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

X-ecutioner, I blame you for changing my behaviour! Never in my life I turned my head to study a person. Even if they were a VIP or a woman whose outfit I wanted to copy. But yesterday I was on an escalator with a black guy ( fatality! haven't met one in flesh and blood for weeks ) and we were shoulder to shoulder so I couldn't see his face. Suddenly I became curious: how dark is he? Darker than a southern indian? So when we got off I turned my head and stared for a while. Then I thought: What if he's a member of some forum and he'll start a topic about a weird woman who looked at him as he was a rara avis?

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That should have been quite funny. Oh, and I'm used to things like these, so don't worry.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

And stop calling me " man " and " mr. ". Everybody knows I'm a woman ( didn't dare to say "lady" ) and I might think you're a misogynist ( to use an euphemism for another type of discrimination).

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Oops, my bad. Didn't know you were a woman. Sorry, Ms. gadjo dilo. :D

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

This was really mean to say but what can I expect from someone without the minimal sense of humour?

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Well, you talk about "authentic" balkan sense of humor, but you fail to understand sarcasm? Oh the irony! :laugh: Of course that wasn't meant to be serious! It was a sarcastic remark at you denying point blank that there is a teeny, tiny possibility of a bunch of Romanians being racist, and instead saying that the singer was lying. BTW, nice touch on the pics. I can find many disgusting pictures of Romania as well by using Google, but won't do that.

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Originally Posted by X-ecutioner

Well, this will be a never ending thread if it goes on like this. I see you're pretty persistent in your beliefs, so I won't try to refute that any more, because this is like banging my head against a wall or playing a trumpet in front of a buffalo, or something to that effect. :D But would you agree that what you describe as "we" Romanians could just be your and only your opinion, right? It's like you're just in complete denial that your fellow compatriots COULD be wrong. Give them a chance. .

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I'm also fed up with this. So, to quote com. Soric : Case closed! :laugh: :laugh:

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Originally Posted by X-ecutioner

Well, you talk about "authentic" balkan sense of humor, but you fail to understand sarcasm? Oh the irony! :laugh: Of course that wasn't meant to be serious! It was a sarcastic remark at you denying point blank that there is a teeny, tiny possibility of a bunch of Romanians being racist, and instead saying that the singer was lying. BTW, nice touch on the pics. I can find many disgusting pictures of Romania as well by using Google, but won't do that.

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I understand sarcasm but I don't appreciate it. The balkanic spirit is characterized by chaos, black humour, sorrow, passionate love, ingenuity. We laugh at somebody's weakness or mistakes but we do this with understanding, sympathy and even fondness. Never condemn them. Our laugh is more like an extension of a general atitude towards existance than an explosion of joy.

According to DEX, in romanian sarcasm means "Ironie aspră, usturatoare; batjocura necrutatoare" -ask your wife to translate it, my english is too poor. Humour is meant to make you laugh, sarcasm has a dose of wickedness which is meant to "bite" and it hurts.


I bet you may find horrible pics. Matter of fact even I posted a few. However I confess I didn't associate them with disgust but with absurdity. And absurd things make me laugh...... A bitter laugh....

eh? gadjo_dilo is a gadja_dila? :eek: :p

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

I understand sarcasm but I don't appreciate it. The balkanic spirit is characterized by chaos, black humour, sorrow, passionate love, ingenuity. We laugh at somebody's weakness or mistakes but we do this with understanding, sympathy and even fondness. Never condemn them. Our laugh is more like an extension of a general atitude towards existance than an explosion of joy.

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You're okay with black humor AND uncomfortable/inappropriate jokes but have a problem with sarcasm? Ahem, I really don't know what to say to that. So, it's okay for one to make idiotic jokes about a specific race's painful history, and laugh about it, but it all goes downhill when somebody dares to make a sarcastic joke about another specific group. :erm:

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Originally Posted by donKey jote

eh? gadjo_dilo is a gadja_dila? :eek: :p

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Don't think that's the feminine term. But definitely I can't be a gadjika. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by X-ecutioner

You're okay with black humor AND uncomfortable/inappropriate jokes but have a problem with sarcasm? Ahem, I really don't know what to say to that.

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Say nothing. :laugh:

Gadjo, I have never for one thought you a racist....

Gee..all this nice stuff is getting to me...Glauistean and I agreed on something too....What is happening to me? lol...