lets compare in the "big leagues", Cup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Roy
How many Championships? :p :
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lets compare in the "big leagues", Cup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Roy
How many Championships? :p :
Those are the big leauge stats if I'm not mistaken. Neither has any championships in Cup obviously. Funny thing is there has only been different champs in cup going back 15 years. Take out the one off's of by Kurt Busch an Kenseth and you bascically have to be Labonte, Gordon, Stewart, or Johnson. To me, not having won a championship at 6 years in is no insult to Kyle. He has many years ahead of him to win championships and they may not be that far away. Bottom line is he's not a likable guy, but he's probably one of the 3 most "talented" drivers out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by muggle not
sorry but the Nationwide no longer counts, the series died in 2005 where the Cup guys would only race like 17 events max.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Roy
so Harvick has 1 championship to 0 over Busch, as even though Harv was the first guy to to the double, it wasnt by choice, and that one was actually harder considering the tracks they used to race at in 01.
Harv: starts:217 wins:33 poles:26 top 5:119 top 10:164 DNF:7 avefinish: 9.5 avestart: 8.6
Kyle: starts:186 wins:36 poles:22 top 5:91 top 10:116 DNF:24 avefinish:12.6 avestart:8.9
sorry but Harvick has got Busch covered in stats as well in the Nationwide, along with 2 championships to 1, and that one by Kyle, he really only race 2 guys all year in Edwards and Brad K.
I'm sorry Harv but I don't think I'm following your logic. You're saying that because Kyle came along after Harvick, his stats in Nationwide don't count the same as before 2005? Maybe I'm misinterpreting your statements. If you ask me, they are both punks. Always have been, probably both always will be. The biggest difference in the two is that Kyle probably has more potential and I think most people would agree is the more talented. But again, he is an easy punk to hate, I'll give you that.Quote:
Originally Posted by harvick#1
no I'm saying is when the 2006 season started, thats when the "double-duty" drivers began. Truex was the last true champion in this series as it was a stepping stone into the Cup series.Quote:
Originally Posted by TURN3
Nascar really hurt this series when they let the Cup guys race a full season in AAA, its pathetic, I know in this day and age, tickets sell for the cup drivers, but the stand-alone races are normally better as you see the young guys fight for a respected win in which they have a few shots at
Brace yourself Turn3 but I am going to have to agree with you on this one. While Harvick is a great driver, I do believe Kyle Busch is better overall. The kid can race in anything. I will have to give the nod to Kyle in this one and I like Kyle Busch too. ;)
Sorry, all the rest of that stuff is BS.Quote:
Originally Posted by harvick#1
I know I've done this before, but I guess in light of the recent discussion it is time to drag out the updated stats, Head to Head (which is the only true measure of how 2 drivers compare).
Kevin Harvick and Kyle Busch have faced each other a staggering 370 races across all three of the top Nascar national series. I say staggering because of how young Kyle still is, and Harvick has faced only 1 other driver more times than that and that would be Greg Biffle (507 races)
Head to ahead across all 370 races Harvick wins 188-182. That means that Harvick finished ahead of Busch 188 times and Busch finished ahead of Harvick 182.
Stat line:
Busch: 50 wins, 146 t5's, 199 t10's, 11.6 avg finish*
Harvick: 33 wins, 132 t5's, 211 t10's, 9.4 avg finish*
* the total avg finish is not 100% accurate as it is really the avg finish of the top 3 series added together and divided by 3, but for comparison purposes it works because we are comparing apples to apples. The avg finish in each series is accurate, of course.
Those 370 races break down as follows:
Sprint Cup: 203
Head to Head: Busch wins 106-97
Stat line:
Busch: 18 wins, 61 t5's, 94 t10's 15.9 avg finish
Harvick: 8 wins, 41 t5's, 85 t10's, 15.3 avg finish
Nationwide Series: 150 races
Head to Head: Harvick wins 83-67
Stat line:
Busch: 28 wins, 73 t5's, 93 t10's, avg finish 12.1
Harvick: 20 wins, 77 t5's, 111 t10's, avg finish 8.1
Camping World Truck Series: 17 races
Head to Head: Busch wins 9-8
Stat Line:
Busch: 4 wins, 12 t5's, 12 t10's, 6.9 avg finish
Harvick: 5 wins, 14 t5's, 15 t10's, 4.9 avg finish :eek:
Harv has the edge in Championships, 2-1 (all Nationwide Series)
Harv has the edge in Marquee events won: 2007 Daytona 500, 2003 Brickyard 400, 2007 All-Star race, and 2 Budweiser Shootouts.
I'll throw Kyle a bone and say he does have the 2008 Southern 500 (even though the race wasn't called the Southern 500 when it was run, it appears that it is being considered that for statistical purposes and if so, Kyle desrves to be recognized for it. If not that, then he has won none of the "marquee" events in Nascar.
Neither driver has won he Coke 600, yet....
AS for Sprint Cup series points, counting the 6 races that Kyle ran in 2004,
Harvick has the edge in points scored (including Chase bonuses):29,810-29,389, or a 421 point edge.
What get's the big :eek: is the 83 wins combined out of 370 races competed in, and how many more would there have been, especially in the Cup Series, had nascar not banned testing at a time one 1 team (the 48) had pretty much a stranglehold on what it takes to make the cot run well? All I can say I can say is WOW.....
Both drivers are extremely talented. Both drivers have won on every type of track NASCAR runs on. Busch has the edge in the take no prisoners, nuke 'em all, win or bring back the steering wheel trying mentality, whereas Harvick has the edge in making sure his car gets the finish it deserves. He takes a 10th place car and gets a 10th place finish out of it. If he finshes in the mid 20's in a given race, then thats all the car had in it. His 15 DNF's in the cup series are incredible, and he has completed more laps in the Cup Series since 2001 than any other driver, even more impressive when his automatic 700 lap deficit is factored in (he did not compete in the 2001 Daytona 500, obviously, and was suspended for the 2002 spring Martinsville race).
Harvick is starting to remind me of Bobby Labonte during the late 90's through 2000. People forget, but he was the original "Mr Where did HE come from?" of the current generation of drivers. He would ride around all day in 8th-12th place, then when the pay window opened he was running at or near the front.
Harvick, especially in plate races, has become that person.
Kyle Busch is reminding me more and more of DW everyday, and if history is any indication, then he will get his Cup Championships soon enough.
Sorry Harv, I have to disagree with you there. Of the 2 Nationwide Championships Kevin won, 2006 is the most impressive.Quote:
Originally Posted by harvick#1
In 2001, Kevin had the car to beat. Not one of the best cars, but the best car by a wide margin. That #2 RCR AC/Delco team was the 48 of its time, no bdy else had equioment that could come close.
In 2006 Harvick handicapped himself with driving his own stuff part of the time and won 9 races, and had 32 of 35 top 10 finishes. Back in 06, his KHI stuff was not anywhere near as competitive as the RCR 21 car he was driving most of the year, and he DESTROYED the rest of the field. Imagine how bad the beatdown would have been if he had driven the 21 in all 35 races...as it was he won by 824 points over another cup driver in cup level equipment, the following years Champion, Carl Edwards. 1000 points and 12-15 wins would not have been out of the realm of possibilty.
Very good analysis slory.
That's good! Think of how many more times you'd be right if you agreed with me more. :eek: And please quite winking at me!Quote:
Originally Posted by DanicaFan
There both very talented but I would have to say Kyle has him covered.
Harvick drives for himself with very-little to no Chevy help, Kyle Busch drives for Joe Gibbs that is Toyota backed.Quote:
Originally Posted by TURN3
the one thing you can watch Kyle, especially in the Cup Series is while he may be fast in the short runs, he falls off fast all the time, but thanks to Nascar throwing random debris cautions all the time, he gets the benefit of not having long green runs all the time.
also RCR has not been the team that has ever been forceful since Earnhardt died. they have struggled behind Hendrick/Gibbs and Roush, they really had big problems on the cookie cutters but as this season has been, look who the point leader is and who has the most top 10's so far in the Cup series.
also Denny Hamlin is a much better driver than Kyle, IMO, on short runs, Kyle maybe one of the best, but as the long runs go, he torches his tires every time and never learns.
hell, most of the guys in the garage think Harvick is one of the best behind Johnson.
look at Kyles states before and after Toyota backing, and you'll find some crazy numbers in that, as Toyota loves spending tons of money on racing programs, and with Gibbs being the #1 in the stable, they get the major advantages from Toyota
the Southern 500 will always be the fall race, when Darlington in the summer heat seperated the men from the boys. There is no more Southern 500's until Darlington gets a 2nd date or they move the one race back to the fall.Quote:
Originally Posted by slorydn1
I feel your pain, and agree for the most part. But, it seems that for statistical purposes, NASCAR is counting the 500 mile races from 2005 on as the Southern 500 (remember, the early season race had been a 400 miler for years when they were running two races a year) and a win at Darlington is still one of the toughest to get (our guy still hasn't gotten it done, yet, in any series!)Quote:
Originally Posted by harvick#1
Potential is a dime-a-dozen. Tell me how good Kyle is when he has actually won a Championship.
Same goes for Harvick thenQuote:
Originally Posted by muggle not
The comparison of the 2 is what has come up here and slory posted the facts as they are. The rest is subject to opinion...but much like when pointing out how somebody like Danica has failed her entire career...STATS DONT'T LIE. Excuses like Toyota has a better program, and this team is better than that team...all that is sour grapes. Unless you're in a Hendrick car, you're not in a top team. Since when did Gibbs get mentioned in a conversation with Hendrick any differently than RCR or Roush?
Bottom line is from the actual stats that have been posted here, Kyle has accomplished the same if not more than Harvick in less time. Compare the stats anyway you want, win %, total wins, etc. It all tells the same story. So for somebody to say Kyle Busch wears his tires out blah blah blah...sure does win a lot with worn tires!
I thought I read where somoene posted that Kyle was one of the 3 best drivers in Cup. That was where I was coming from when I posted that Kyle has won "zip" Championships. Gordon and Jimmie Johnson have won 4 each and Tony has won several. How do you possibly rate Kyle above them.Quote:
Originally Posted by TURN3
I think I said a few posts ago that he is one of the top 3 most talented...that is my opinion and its shared widely. Being the most talented isn't necessarily the best. Jeff Gordon has 4 championships but what has he done the past 7 years or so? Notta! So is he still one of the 2 best considering only he and Jimmy have 4 championships? If measuring how good somebody were was as simple as just counting championships there would be universal logic...and that isn't the case. My opinion is Kyle and Montoya are about as talented of drivers there are in the world...and you'll hear media and competitors say that about every week. Can you imagine Montoya in a competitive rig? He's got the quickest reflexes of anybody driving cup according to JJ himself.Quote:
Originally Posted by muggle not
Let me add that only Labonte, Gordon, Johnson, Kenseth, Ku. Busch, and Stewart are apparently the only good drivers in Cup...they're the only past champions (unless I left one out).
Quote:
Originally Posted by muggle not
And for Mark Martin; Kasey Kahne; Denny Hamlin; Jeff Burton; Carl Edwards; Greg Biffle; Ryan Newman; Dale Earnhardt, Jr ;Quote:
Originally Posted by TURN3
Do any of them suck (fan preferences aside?)
Mark Martin has won 95 races in the three top series, 40 of those in the Cup Series. Finished p2 last year (and won 5 races). Has finished p2 in the standings 5 times-but 1 team always seems to do it better in that year, and its always someone different-Dale Earnhardt, Sr, (1990,1994) Jeff Gordon (1998), Tony Stewart (2002), Jimmie "4-time" Johnson (2009)...5 times over a 19 year span. But yep-come back and talk to me when he wins a Championship
Kasey Kahne must really suck. He has only won 20 times, only 11 of those in the cup series. Rick Hendrick has to be a total idiot to want to bring him aboard along side another total failure-
Dale Earnhardt, Jr 40 wins (18 of those in the Cup Series) 2 time Nationwide Series Champion, Daytona 500 winner-but unable to win the almighty Cup Championship
Jeff Burton-48 wins (21 of those in the Cup Series) Like Kasey Kahne- he must really be the lowest of the low...Hasn't won the championship in any series-
Denny Hamlin-has won 5 cup races this year alone, 23 total wins (13 in the Cup Series) but no Championships in any series
I could go on and on with all of the drivers I named-every one of them have won double digit races in the Cup Series, some of them have one 1 or more championships in the lower series-and yes, add both Harvick and Busch to this list.
The teams they drive for have alot to do with it. As Turn3 says all teams but Hendrick have up and down years.
Nascar and their media "partners" have made it all about the almighty Cup championsip. Heck, Nascar even dreamed up a freakin playoff system to be just like stick and ball sports. Why even bother giving out trophys for race wins anymore, since they really don't mean anything . Nascar wants to be the NFL? When my beloved Chicago Bears pound the Detroit Lions into submission in week 1 at Soldier Field this year are they gonna get a trophy? No. They'll get a tick in the win column which could help with their playoff seeding when the time comes. Oh and Dan Marino sucks, too-the NFL Hall of Fame selection committee must be a real bunch of idots-he has no championship rings. :p :
Heck, I'm fast becoming of a mind that drivers don't win championships- crew chief's do. But thats the subject for a whole different thread, isn't it.
That said-Kyle Busch-and I am not a real fan of his- is one of the best talents to come down the pike in a long time; and Harvick who has been saddled with subpar cars more often than not over his career is pretty darn good too. And so is Kasey Kahne, Denny Hamlin, Carl Edwards, Ryan Newman, and Greg Biffle. Given the right circumstances, and a Chad Knaus type CC, anyone of these dirivers could win the Cup Championship-some probably will whenever Chad decides retire....Some of these may win multiple times.
This is not meant to be a smack down, but a reality check. It shows just how screwed up the sport has become.
Whoa, no one said that any of those drivers 'suck". They are all good. However, Gordon has 82 wins, JJ has 52 wins and Tony has 37. When a drivers career is over they will be judged, for the most part, on the number of wins and number of championships they have. Not how much potential they had. :)
True, i have no quibble with that per se....My real fav has 7 rings and 76+ cup trophy's (I say 76 plus because I lost count of all the trophies that don't count (Shootouts, All-Stars, twin-125's and the like).Quote:
Originally Posted by muggle not
I guess all this chase bs has made me real sensitive over the years because I keep hearing how JJ is probably the GOAT because he has won 4 in a row,(and no, you have never said that to the best of my knowledge) yet he has never had to put together a full season like Gordon, Waltrip, Yarbrough Earnhardt and Petty have and all they were able to do was back to back (ok Cale did the three-peat).
I give props where props are due and no matter what points system one used last year, JJ won, hands down....Chase, Non -Chase, Current F1, Old F1. He got it done...but 4 in a row....puh-lease...
Kyle Busch is not the best ever. Neither is Harvick. But the two of them are among the most talented drivers I have had the pleasure to watch carve up traffic since the 90's for sure. Big difference between talent, and what one is able to do with it, what the circumstances of the day do to allow that talent to come thru is a lot to do with it.
Seems like you're changing your story a bit mugs...now you say that number of wins DOES matter? Come on, at least be consistent in your point. First it was a measure by championships...now by championships and wins?Quote:
Originally Posted by muggle not
So the person you seem to be putting down is Kyle...now he doesn't win enough? Over the past 2 years plus he's gotta be one of the leaders in number of W's...I don't know the numbers, I'm just saying. The only guy that I can think of that wins as often as him is JJ and he with Chad is a freak of nature. So all that "potential" must be worth something halfway into year 6 of his cup career huh?
50 :eek: total wins in the last 2.5 years, 14 of those in the Cup Series, vs 19 for JJ, all in the Cup SeriesQuote:
Originally Posted by TURN3
sorry but Truck and Nationwide stats dont count, Nascar needed to after Harvick won in 06 to not allow any driver with 1 year of Nascar cup experience to be allowed more than 15 races per season in the lower ranks.
the Trucks and Nationwide series is there for up and coming talent, not for Cup drivers stealing time from kids trying to make it into Nascar.
I guess this will always be the one thing that you and I will always fundamentally disagree. I belive that without Harvick, Edwards, Busch, and now Hamlin, Logano and Keselowski that the Nationwide series will just die a slow death. The truck series would survive, in my view, because it is substantially different from the Cup Series....Cup is Cars, Camping World Trucks are, well.....trucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by harvick#1
I will agree with you on one premise. It may have been better if the cup drivers never went down that slippery slope to start with, and Harvick was the trail blazer that the other drivers followed to see if was feasible for them to even attempt to run for dual championships in the first place. When he won the 2001 Nationwide Championship at the same time he had one of the most successful rookie years ever in the cup series, well then it was Katie bar the door.
But now that we are where we are, so to speak, alot of fans, and just as importantly, potential sponsors and the networks have come to expect a certain level of competition in the Nationwide Series, and for at least a few Cup drivers to attempt the Championship, and absent that, the network attention and sponsor money will dry up.
That's non-sense. Those series were never designed to be "stepping stones".Quote:
Originally Posted by harvick#1
Yes, I agree with Lee Roy, those series weren't designed as stepping stones or ladder series. I'm not an extreme NASCAR history buff but I believe I remember the likes of Dale Sr., Richard Petty, and Mark Martin doing lots and lots of racing in then Busch series. Sorry Harv, you're usually pretty dead on but this topic you're off a bit. We can't let hatred toward a driver spray red mist on the facts and Kyle has the facts. This isn't a career 1 win driver without a clue how to perform at the professional level here, cough cough!Quote:
Originally Posted by harvick#1
Bottom line, Nationwide or Truck series wins/championships do not count as wins/championships in the Cup Series.
Remember, Tim Richmond was a great driver with great talent and potential but he doesn't compare to say, Dale, SR. since Tim's win total and lack of Championship was lacking for his career.
back in the day no, but now, yes it was/is, how many guys drove straight into the Cup series????? not many, they all raced in the Busch/Nationwide series for a few years before coming up, Jeff Gordon didnt jump into Cup right away, nor did Tony Stewart, or Mark Martin, Kevin Harvick, Dale Earnhardt Jr., and even Kyle Busch. Kurt Busch, Carl Edwards, and Greg Biffle all started their years with Roush in the Trucks before moving up to the big time. Logano, was he in Cup right when he started? no he was in ARCA and Nationwide.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Roy
dont be tellin me that the Trucks or Nationwide is not a "stepping stone", the series just got overrun, or else we'd be talking about whos the gonna win the title if Allgier could hold his nearly 400 point lead over the next leading NWS runner. instead we have drivers that shouldn't be in AAA anymore.
thats like Alex Ovechkin or Crosby going back to the AHL or OHL, or Lebron James playing in the CBA. the Trucks are still ok since Harvick and Busch dont make enough appearances to get involved in the championship, but in the NWS, its just a joke
I find your assertion that the NNS is a stepping stone to Cup and that it should be managed as such to be wrong. It was not established as a training series for aspiring Cup drivers, and it never was intended as such. Many Cup drivers have raced in the NNS before stepping up to a Cup ride, but that doesn't make it a series dedicated soley to that purpose.Quote:
Originally Posted by harvick#1
Hopefully, the folks at NASCAR are too smart to start saying who can and who can't race in the NNS. That would destroy a great racing series.
ok, dont care anymore with the fight, I just got called back to work at my old job, and with todays struggles, I'm so happy to be working again and getting that money :D :beer:
Congrats to you on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by harvick#1
Quote:
Originally Posted by harvick#1
And congratulations from me, also. Hope all goes well for you there.
thanks gents, it was a long year of waiting nervously wondering if I would ever be called back. time to make that big money again :D
That's awesome :up: I was reading through some old threads last night and came across the thread when you posted u were starting a new job but heard that CAT was fixin to start call backs for the people that got laid off 6 months ahead of you and was going to ask how that was going....Slo2 says thats great, too :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by harvick#1
Harvick, let me add my congratulations. It's about time that you started doing some work. Getting paid adds to the enjoyment. :)
I actually did get a job in January, but by the time March hit, they laid me off because they no longer had work. but with being back a Cat, it will be alot more safe openfully, I am actually working back on my old line which is like winning the jackpot and my buddy said they are giving away major overtime, so I'll prolly be there 6 days a week again gettin some serious bank.Quote:
Originally Posted by muggle not
When OT is available, work it. Advice from an "old geezer". :DQuote:
Originally Posted by harvick#1
Glad to hear your back to work Harvick#1 :beer: .That must feel good , congratulations .