Hamilton's Driving

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Originally Posted by airshifter

I agree. When I watched the action in slow motion there was already contact between Hamiltons front tire and Vettels rear at about the time Hamilton got going straight, as Vettel was squeezing him in. In that posted photo Lewis is already to the right of the pit lines, and the only way to give Vettel more room would be to move farther into the pit box areas.

It's not as if Lewis had any safe way to lift and allow Vettel to move forward to he could tuck in behind him. To do so would have risked more contact between the two cars potentially sending the cars into the wall filled with team engineers, or the pit boxes or garages filled with mechanics.

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Fair point actually.

I guess then it becomes a question, which cannot be answered, of whether Hamilton would have yielded had Vettel moved over to the left and given him racing room even though effectively having the inside line to the next turn.

And BOTH drivers got a reprimand! Why are we still beating this dead horse???

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Originally Posted by truefan72

In a race where Button nearly causes a wreck at restart

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Or, the drivers behind hav forgotten how to queue. They need to have lessons at my local Sainsbury's.....spend your life queueing there before some acne riddled 16 year old just about manages to mutter something resembling 'alright'..........

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Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior

And BOTH drivers got a reprimand! Why are we still beating this dead horse???

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'cos we've all finished picking our noses/scratching our nuts and are bored????

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Originally Posted by tamburello

I wasn't aware you shared Wilko's views, Sonic. In fact, I never thought you did or would.

In fact, I put you in a much higher class than his sort.

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I'm honored to be mentioned as a third party, thanks Tambourine.

My sort are easily pleased.

Mwaaaaaahhhhhh. ;)

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Originally Posted by Sonic

:rolleyes: If his sort don't call people names based on little more than their nationality then, tes I'm right on board with Wilko's class.

Peace and love. :)

Sonic out.

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According to Tambourine, I am a racist, bigot (and probably a smallot too...) I have three eyes and 6 toes.

Still, I have my cough splutter health! :laugh:

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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

That makes it more the fault of those who released him into the path of another car than his.

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Doh! He was not released into the path of another car though, was he? Lewis unfortunately lit up the rear wheels and was slow away. Were it not for that, he would have been ahead.

They were both in the wrong for what ensued - 6 of 1, half a dozen of 'tother.

Now, how's that volcano doing?

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Originally Posted by Ari

particularly after his 'talking' at the conclusion of the last Grand Prix.

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Because that was last race, not this one....??????

Doh!

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Originally Posted by Dave Brockman

...the replay clearly shows that he got released mere tenths after Vettel but got a shocking getaway, putting them side by side. With their tyres interlocking there was no way he could brake and get out of it. Vettel then attemped to push him into the mechanics' slow lane

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That describes the incident very clearly :up:

As one of the commentators said Hamilton was never going to overtake anyway because of the pit lane speed limiter. Vettel squeezing the McLaren across the pitlane was dangerous and totally unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by Ari

BUT why were they still side by side down the pit lane??

I agree that they were released very close to the same time. Vettel marginally before, but as they said on the BBC you can't expect a lollipop man to be checking not just pit lane but everyones pit box. That was excusable.

What was NOT excusable was that Vettel was a 2 metres ahead of Hamilton AND on the driving part of pitlane. Hamilton was on the side of pitlane, outside white lines and marginally missing airguns and all sorts.

It was ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE for Lewis to race in that fashion which he did. He should have backed off immediately seeing that Vettel was ahead of him and that he had no lane. Instead he raced all the way down pitlane side by side amongst mechanics and air guns etc.

For those saying that Vettel moved over.... why shouldn't he!? Hamilton had no lane! Why should Vettel try to accommodate someone who is somewhere they simply shouldn't be.

Fact is that Hamilton did the wrong thing and, being the FIA loveboy that he is, managed to get away without a penalty of any sort.

ABSOLUTE CORRUPTION. Simple as that. There is no excuse for what happened. Yes the release was very close to the same time but Hamilton, seeing that he had no lane, should have backed off and moved in instead of fishtailing (he's good at that) down pit lane amongst the other team space.

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Very good post!

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Originally Posted by Ari

ABSOLUTE CORRUPTION. Simple as that.

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What, you reckon all the stewards walk away with a nice shiny new TAG watch and matching Vodafone iPhones????

Phoooeeeyyyyyy.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Of course, for your sort it's just easier to blame nasty Johnny Foreigner than admit fault.

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Admit fault - what did I do sweetie?

I find it hard to believe that Hamilton didn't brake because their tyres interlocking would have caused an accident, as some claim. And it was because he didn't brake that Vettel moved over, which resulted in contact.

But Vettel stayed in his lane, even if he did move over. If they had been on track under a yellow flag then Vettel would have let Lewis through, knowing he'd be penalised for overtaking illegally.

But the message I get from the stewards here is that overtaking in the pitlane, or at least battling for position, is not as bad as overtaking under a yellow. I feel that the issue is not just whether you like Hamilton or not. We saw Kubica overtake at the start of a session in qualifying in Malaysia right at the end of the pitlane. Now this. It seems the stewards consider these moves okay, which I think is wrong.

So does anyone know what the reprimand means in practical terms? I mean, in football, if a player gets a yellow card then he knows that a second yellow equals a red card. What about Vettel and Hamilton? Hamilton has now had a warning (of sorts) and then a reprimand in two races.

http://cdn.gallery.autosport.com/pic...e/l__26y0247-2


http://cdn.gallery.autosport.com/pic...e/l__26y0251-2

http://cdn.gallery.autosport.com/pic...su_10chn1336-2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D5uMlUZnaU

Well, here we have it in glorious technicolour.

First we have Webber closing in on Hamilton effectively squeezing him into Vettel and then Vettel starts to drift out. Webber could have got out of it but decided to go off track as there's beautiful run-offs. Guess he wouldn't have been there had it been Monaco!!

I know that Hamilton races hard but there was no intention to punt Webber off that I can see.

The stewards have made their judgement, so it's all academic, but for the sake of passing time on a Monday morning, here is my reading of those photos.

The first one shows Vettel on the blue area as he gets away from his pit. You could say he's trying to cut Hamilton's getaway, but in the second photo Vettel is clearly well into the centre of the lane, where he should be. It seems to me that Vettel won the getaway from the pits contest, but that Hamilton was the last to realise or accept this.

In my view Vettel is trying to stop Hamilton from doing something that Lewis shouldn't have been trying in the first place, but that the stewards cannot be relied upon to rule clearly on.

I have never really liked Hamilton but I have to give some credit to the guy. He has made a lot of exciting things happen on the track. I even kind of like how he bends the rules every now and then. Besides, he can be fast as hell. But at the pitlane he should have just backed down. Vettel didn't put him in a perfect position but Seb was ahead so he could do a thing like that. Hamilton was too stubborn and well...if an accident happens at the pitlane there's a lot more people who can get hurt than at track.

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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

He slid because he had to turn sharply to avoid Vettel. That makes it more the fault of those who released him into the path of another car than his. I have seen several drivers having to take evasive action such as Hamiltons, unfortunately thats what lower peripheral vision from the cockpit will entail.

However in retrospect, judging from the pictures, it was very clear that for a considerable amount of the time that Hamilton had enough of a gap not to lock wheels, and hence should have dropped behind Vettel.

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The criteria for a safe release is that there must be no cars within the vicinity of the exiting car. Vettel's man looked, there was nothing, so a safe release. At almost the same split second, Hamilton's man looks, there was nothing in pit lane, so a safe release. But for whatever reason, Seb the Vet had good traction, Lewis had none.

Good luck getting ANYONE to give up their spot if they rightfully think it's theirs.

Lewis was a bit naughty in not slotting in behind Vettel and Vettel was a bit naughty in squeezing Lewis. Both got a rollocking. Let's move on.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

It's not as if Lewis had any safe way to lift and allow Vettel to move forward to he could tuck in behind him. To do so would have risked more contact between the two cars potentially sending the cars into the wall filled with team engineers, or the pit boxes or garages filled with mechanics.

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How so? Lifting at those speeds wouldn't have upset anything. That is, in fact, what Hamilton should have done. They were both being incredibly competitive going into and within the pit area, Vettel got out first and Hamilton should have tucked in behind him. Not sure what the appropriate penalty should have been but that is the easiest way to generate a fatal incident - car to car contact around unprotected and proximate people focusing intently on the job at hand i.e. pit crews

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Originally Posted by tintop

How so? Lifting at those speeds wouldn't have upset anything. That is, in fact, what Hamilton should have done. They were both being incredibly competitive going into and within the pit area, Vettel got out first and Hamilton should have tucked in behind him. Not sure what the appropriate penalty should have been but that is the easiest way to generate a fatal incident - car to car contact around unprotected and proximate people focusing intently on the job at hand i.e. pit crews

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Pit crew are only allowed in the pit area when their car is pitting, right?

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Pit crew are only allowed in the pit area when their car is pitting, right?

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Or when they are about to pit. Your point being?

Look at all of the nice people in blue uni's that could have been taken out.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/foru...2&postcount=95

Tintop: I think airshifter was suggesting that because vettel and Hamiltons wheels were interlocked, Lewis could not lift without probable wheel to wheel contact. Hell, its not like Hamster could have eased right to leave some room to lift off the gas and slot in! :D ;)

Anyways I think this debate has run its course now, well certainly from my POV so goodnight everyone. :)

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Originally Posted by fandango

The stewards have made their judgement, so it's all academic, but for the sake of passing time on a Monday morning, here is my reading of those photos.

The first one shows Vettel on the blue area as he gets away from his pit. You could say he's trying to cut Hamilton's getaway, but in the second photo Vettel is clearly well into the centre of the lane, where he should be. It seems to me that Vettel won the getaway from the pits contest, but that Hamilton was the last to realise or accept this.

In my view Vettel is trying to stop Hamilton from doing something that Lewis shouldn't have been trying in the first place, but that the stewards cannot be relied upon to rule clearly on.

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Somebody get this guy a gold star!

Pretty much exactly how I read it.... but you said it with much less words. :p

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

What, you reckon all the stewards walk away with a nice shiny new TAG watch and matching Vodafone iPhones????

Phoooeeeyyyyyy.

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Now that you mention it............. ;)

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/1981/bernie.jpg

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Originally Posted by tintop

How so? Lifting at those speeds wouldn't have upset anything. That is, in fact, what Hamilton should have done. They were both being incredibly competitive going into and within the pit area, Vettel got out first and Hamilton should have tucked in behind him. Not sure what the appropriate penalty should have been but that is the easiest way to generate a fatal incident - car to car contact around unprotected and proximate people focusing intently on the job at hand i.e. pit crews

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I'm not stating that lifting would have upset the car, simply that after they had already made tire to tire contact lifting would have upset BOTH cars if the wheels touched again. Lewis did lift and tuck in once clear of the air hoses and such towards pit exit.

Had Vettel not kept him crowded to the right we might know what Lewis had done given some room.



Speaking of the entry, did anyone get the full coverage of the initial pit lane entry around the final corner? SpeedTV only showed it as they exited the corner.

In the Alonso/Massa entry Alonso clearly had all four tires to the inside of the marked lines. From where they cut in to the Vettel/Hamilton incident it only shows a couple of tires inside the line.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

I'm not stating that lifting would have upset the car, simply that after they had already made tire to tire contact lifting would have upset BOTH cars if the wheels touched again. Lewis did lift and tuck in once clear of the air hoses and such towards pit exit.

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They were only close before Vettel moved over after it became very apparent Hamilton had no intention to move in line behind him being that he was a metre behind and had no lane.

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Had Vettel not kept him crowded to the right we might know what Lewis had done given some room.

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Not true. Lewis WAS given room but chose to race instead. On doing this Vettel closed the door and moved across on him. Was it the wrong thing to do from a racing perspective? Absolutely not... Vettel owned that space and Lewis should have moved back. Was it the wrong thing to do from a safety perspective? Absolutely yes.... when Vettel moved across he himself put engineers at risk.

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Speaking of the entry, did anyone get the full coverage of the initial pit lane entry around the final corner? SpeedTV only showed it as they exited the corner.

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Hamilton went in first....

[youtube]ReNA_VaSV50[/youtube]

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In the Alonso/Massa entry Alonso clearly had all four tires to the inside of the marked lines. From where they cut in to the Vettel/Hamilton incident it only shows a couple of tires inside the line.

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Not sure what you're saying here sorry!!

End of the day, pit lane clearly has space to accommodate two cars within the marked lines.

As I said earlier, they were both at fault. No doubt the stewards saw their behaviour in a competitive light, each transgression cancelling the other out, so deemed a reprimand for both appropriate.

Of course, maybe saturn has run rings around uranus and this is the result, but the former seems more plausible to me.

And, in the pits, the only other crew out in the entire remaining pit was Williams.

Perhaps we need a chap with a red flag to escort drivers to their pit.......

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Tbh I'd forgotten about what Hamilton did to Vettel because of what happened about 30 seconds later but yes that was dumb.

You don't get it. You really don't get it. I never said Jenson's driving was erratic in terms of acceleration or decelleration or weaving. Neither did Brundle, what Brundle said was that Jenson failed in his obligation to drive in a manner which was not liable to cause an accident. Tbh if Jenson had done that in a dry race then it would have been fine. But

1) It was damp
2)We'd just had a safety car so people were on coolish tyres
3) Some people were on slicks
4) Some people were on rather worn intermediates

etc etc and if you don't get that then there's little hope. All it would have taken would be one driver misjudging things and there would have been a stupid pileup, thank god Shanghai is one of Tilke's uberwide borefests or there wouldn't have been room for everyone to get out of the way.

There seems to be a school of thought that if someone's reckless actions didn't cause an accident this time then it's all good. That's just complete BS. PSfan has come out and found the reg anyway which shows how much of a ballbag Jenson is and that what he did was wrong.

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Ease off on Jenson - he's just been watching too many NASCAR restarts! :)

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Originally Posted by tintop

How so? Lifting at those speeds wouldn't have upset anything. That is, in fact, what Hamilton should have done. They were both being incredibly competitive going into and within the pit area, Vettel got out first and Hamilton should have tucked in behind him. Not sure what the appropriate penalty should have been but that is the easiest way to generate a fatal incident - car to car contact around unprotected and proximate people focusing intently on the job at hand i.e. pit crews

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Agreed! If two cars touch wheels on the course, they end up off in the grass, armco, wall, etc. If it happens in the pits, they could end up in mechanics, other pitted cars, garages, etc. Seems to me that there needs to be a strict rule that cars in the pitlane must be single file or face (real) discipline, not a reprimand. The second car should fall in behind the first even if it is released 1 cm behind the other car.

You might lose a position, but we are talking about protecting lives - that's a bit more important!

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Originally Posted by wmcot

Ease off on Jenson - he's just been watching too many NASCAR restarts! :)

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Indeed. I remember watching CART (as was), and doing crazy things to get away at a pace car restart was standard practice!

I really need to know something!!!! If you watch Ari's video of the pitlane incident, you will see the pit lane entry beginning at 1:20!!!

We can clearly see that Lewis overtakes Vettel by taking a racing line outside the white pit-entry lines. I thought drivers should be inside the white lines in the pit entry. Am I wrong or are we witnessing the slaughter of the rules by the FIA???

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Originally Posted by Ari

Now that you mention it............. ;)

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/1981/bernie.jpg

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Oh look, it's Victor Meldrew.....

I have gone off Hamilton. Too many questionable actions and outright lies (apart from the burnout in Melbourne - props boy!). He's a spoilt little tool and needs to be handed his arse by someone - oh, lets say Button, for example???

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Originally Posted by TheFamousEccles

I have gone off Hamilton. Too many questionable actions and outright lies (apart from the burnout in Melbourne - props boy!). He's a spoilt little tool and needs to be handed his arse by someone - oh, lets say Button, for example???

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As a matter of pure curiosity - without requiring complicated and likely messy surgery, just how does one go about handing someones botty to them?

The changeable conditions in many of the races so far have played to Button's strengths. He has out-thought his rivals (including Hamilton) and has reaped the rewards. Still, I believe Hamilton is generally quicker, and over the course of the season I think his strengths will come to the fore, leaving him ahead of Button in the final reckoning. I have a lot of respect for both men and neither is handing the other their arse.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Its funny that these are two competitive drivers who appear to get on very well with each other and both have a high level of respect for one anothers ability...

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According to JB:

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"It's good to have a team-mate who's that competitive. The guy will never give up. He's like a pit-bull. He will never give up. He is going to fight until the end and I love having a team-mate who's like that. He's amazingly quick. He's an exceptional driver. That's also nice because we push each other very hard and we are going to be pushing each other very hard this year."

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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83065

I do understand the intangibles that go into a successful F1 career, but from where I sit, Hamilton comes across the least likeable.

As for the handing of the arse, it involves (but not limited to) Button winning twice so far this season, when the popular opinion was that he was the bunny, hired to make the precocious talent look good and run around near the front so the sponsors got some coverage whilst the fortunate son got on with trouncing the field - in short, very definitely a #2 driver.

Yes, Hamilton can drive, yes he has talent, but he lacks quite a bit in the sportsmanship realm (as do many others, I am aware of this). And in my opinion, in this current phase of F1, where sympatico with the car, tyres, fuel burn, conditions, etc are paramount, Button has it all over the fortunate son.

The pressure is very much on Lewis now, and it will increase.

The pressure vill not benefit his driving.

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Originally Posted by Mia 01

The pressure is very much on Lewis now, and it will increase.

The pressure vill not benefit his driving.

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Actually, I think it vill.