Hybrids and why they may the be wrong idea...

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Yes there are plenty of problems with hydrogen, and I don't think its definitely the future. I certainly don't think it is the ONLY future, and I think for decades we will have a wide choice of power units, from fully electric to fuel cell, petrol, Diesel and hybrids. Things will change and I think its far too early to write off petrol and Diesel for a long while. One thing is clear though, unless you live in a city state or a tiny country like Israel electric cars won't be the dominant type.

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I will quibble with you a bit on this. I think it HAS to be the best bet for the future outside of continued use of petrol and diesel. Unless someone has a new leap forward in batteries (and god knows people have spent billions trying), the electric will not make it. That doesn't leave many options if the car truly will be a car. The Hybrid is a nice idea that just is a fancy gasoline powered solution that actually doesn't save enough money in fuel savings to make up for its extra costs. Never mind on the price of the titanium and exotic metals AND the costs involved in handling the wore out battery packs. The hybrid isn't an electric car, but it works AS a car, so people are given the false hope that this is the way forward.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

I will quibble with you a bit on this. I think it HAS to be the best bet for the future outside of continued use of petrol and diesel. Unless someone has a new leap forward in batteries (and god knows people have spent billions trying), the electric will not make it. That doesn't leave many options if the car truly will be a car. The Hybrid is a nice idea that just is a fancy gasoline powered solution that actually doesn't save enough money in fuel savings to make up for its extra costs. Never mind on the price of the titanium and exotic metals AND the costs involved in handling the wore out battery packs. The hybrid isn't an electric car, but it works AS a car, so people are given the false hope that this is the way forward.

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Electric cars DO make sense if you're going to use it for short trips round the city or for commuting, just as you would currently use a Smart. On the European continent there has been a long history of people driving tiny petrol engined two seat cars around town, cars that would make a Smart look like a truck and have performance not much better than a current electric car. It would not be difficult to market electric cars at those users who don't expect any more from their cars.

What you are talking about is a replacement for the 'do-anything' vehicle, something you could trundle to work and the shops in yet is capable of crossing the country in comfort if need be. There, I agree electric isn't the answer but smart hybrid solutions could have a role there.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Electric cars DO make sense if you're going to use it for short trips round the city or for commuting, just as you would currently use a Smart. On the European continent there has been a long history of people driving tiny petrol engined two seat cars around town, cars that would make a Smart look like a truck and have performance not much better than a current electric car. It would not be difficult to market electric cars at those users who don't expect any more from their cars.

What you are talking about is a replacement for the 'do-anything' vehicle, something you could trundle to work and the shops in yet is capable of crossing the country in comfort if need be. There, I agree electric isn't the answer but smart hybrid solutions could have a role there.

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I suppose in city applications, there could be uses for the electric, but again, in a climate that is temperate and there are locations to keep the car on charge.

The do-anything vehicle is the staple of the car market. For the price of a car, you HAVE to use it for more than casual use. If a real car costs a minimum of 12000 dollars new, then where is the pricepoint for an electric car that has no range and isn't useful every day in most of the climatic zones in the western world? The market finds the fault with technology that doesn't work and either it is made to work at a price that makes sense, or it is bypassed. The electric car has been bypassed....

lol lets just ignore all the downsides of hydrogen. Tbh I can't be bothered with this.....

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Originally Posted by Daniel

lol lets just ignore all the downsides of hydrogen. Tbh I can't be bothered with this.....

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I believe we've addressed the ones you've raised already without a counterargument from you.

I'm deeply interested in this subject Daniel, you clearly are too, why not list all those downsides of hydrogen and also address the downsides of electric cars which have been raised too?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement

Not a small problem you have to admit and one that affects hydrogen from the time it's produced to the time it's used in the fuel cell or burnt. Also remember that hydrogen doesn't have the lubricating properties of fuel so that opens a whole can of worms with hydrogen combustion.

I realise electric cars have their problems but as I said if you make the batteries standard/modular and quick to swap out then this makes the range argument a lot less of a problem.

Sure batteries have their problems in the cold but I'll wager that if better insulated and perhaps heated slightly that this would help.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement

Not a small problem you have to admit and one that affects hydrogen from the time it's produced to the time it's used in the fuel cell or burnt. Also remember that hydrogen doesn't have the lubricating properties of fuel so that opens a whole can of worms with hydrogen combustion..

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Ceramic coatings and different alloys are being used in this research right now. I figure this is a solvable issue. If not, hydrogen fuel cells powering electric motors will be more in line with your feelings on electrics.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

I realise electric cars have their problems but as I said if you make the batteries standard/modular and quick to swap out then this makes the range argument a lot less of a problem.

Sure batteries have their problems in the cold but I'll wager that if better insulated and perhaps heated slightly that this would help.

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Batteries if heated slightly would have to get the power from where? Once the car is rolling, the vehicle is in cold soak mode when it is -5 C, and THAT is a mile temp in the winter for all of Canada almost not to mention a good chunk of the US and Europe. You still have to siphon off power from that battery to keep the windows unfrosted, the radio on and HEAT for the people inside. Sorry, you solve all that, then you can talk to me about battery swapping stations. Batteries are large...how much infrastructure on street corners will that take and who will pay for it? Chargers all over the city to park the car at to charge up? Who pays? the consumer for sure, but will it be costly?

There is a lot of things to figure out no matter whether we go electric or hydgrogen for sure, but for Dylan and I guess we made up our mind on this one. I have used too many things that don't take to cold well that fail, and batteries are at the top of the list.

You're absolutely correct Mark. I'd be surprised if a battery-powered vehicle would be able to travel more than a few miles in -20 deg. temps, pushing through snow-covered roads :s
Nope, battery technology simply is not a viable option in our climate.

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Originally Posted by schmenke

You're absolutely correct Mark. I'd be surprised if a battery-powered vehicle would be able to travel more than a few miles in -20 deg. temps, pushing through snow-covered roads :s
Nope, battery technology simply is not a viable option in our climate.

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Schmenke, That is what I find frustrating when Daniel or someone else tells me how the electric car is doable, and points to something like the Tesla or some little car somewhere and I laugh. We do not live in a unique climate, most of the northern US, Russia, Western Europe all have weather conditions that can be like ours. It is most of the car buying world as it stands....and it is totally too hostile for part of the year to battery powered anything....

Electric cars looked to be the way to go in 1901 when the car was a rich man's toy...but Henry Ford and others showed just how useful the car would be to the middle class, and THAT is why we have the IC engine...

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Schmenke, That is what I find frustrating when Daniel or someone else tells me how the electric car is doable, and points to something like the Tesla or some little car somewhere and I laugh. We do not live in a unique climate, most of the northern US, Russia, Western Europe all have weather conditions that can be like ours. It is most of the car buying world as it stands....and it is totally too hostile for part of the year to battery powered anything....

Electric cars looked to be the way to go in 1901 when the car was a rich man's toy...but Henry Ford and others showed just how useful the car would be to the middle class, and THAT is why we have the IC engine...

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The thing is just as research is going into hydrogen there is research going into what benefits carbon nanotubes can give to batteries so don't write batteries off just yet.

Long live cumbustion!

:D

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Originally Posted by Daniel

The thing is just as research is going into hydrogen there is research going into what benefits carbon nanotubes can give to batteries so don't write batteries off just yet.

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Oh I wont write them off, but as I said Daniel, we have had batteries as part our lives for years. Making car batteries last to turn over motors at -40 C has pushed the technology forward, but as any Canadian who ever got up at 6am on a -30 or -40 day (I haven't seen but a few of those, but in western Canada or Northern Ontario and Quebec they see those) to go to work, the last thing you want to hear is your battery dying before the engine starts. We are VERY aware of the limitations of batteries in cold, so it probably colours my faith in the technology. Hey, if some car maker out there makes an electric car that WORKS, then hey, I am happy to be wrong, but that is the standard I am going to hold it to. It has to survive cold and long periods of it. Right now, It isn't even CLOSE.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement

Not a small problem you have to admit and one that affects hydrogen from the time it's produced to the time it's used in the fuel cell or burnt. Also remember that hydrogen doesn't have the lubricating properties of fuel so that opens a whole can of worms with hydrogen combustion.

I realise electric cars have their problems but as I said if you make the batteries standard/modular and quick to swap out then this makes the range argument a lot less of a problem.

Sure batteries have their problems in the cold but I'll wager that if better insulated and perhaps heated slightly that this would help.

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Yep that is definitely a problem, probably the single biggest problem with hydrogen. I reckon its less of a problem with fuel cell merely because you can have a large battery to supply the motor if the hydrogen has run out to get you to the local supply station at least.

I'm sure engineers could find a solution of sorts though, even if it is as inelegant as having a big battery on board or supplying a small hydrogen generator for the home for emergencies.

I've wondered about modular/swappable batteries and there's one big hitch. Essentially you're saying that there should be a one size fits all battery, fine in principle but that means that a large family car will by definition have a much shorter range than a low end but lighter two seater. I don't think the consumer will like that.

BTW Mark, Canada isn't the centre of the universe. I know a few people who own G-Wizs in London and who aren't environmentalists by any stretch of the imagination. That crude electric car certainly fulfils all their expectations already with few problems, and new ones in the pipeline will be better. Electric cars have a niche to fill and they fill it nicely.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Yep that is definitely a problem, probably the single biggest problem with hydrogen. I reckon its less of a problem with fuel cell merely because you can have a large battery to supply the motor if the hydrogen has run out to get you to the local supply station at least.

I'm sure engineers could find a solution of sorts though, even if it is as inelegant as having a big battery on board or supplying a small hydrogen generator for the home for emergencies.

I've wondered about modular/swappable batteries and there's one big hitch. Essentially you're saying that there should be a one size fits all battery, fine in principle but that means that a large family car will by definition have a much shorter range than a low end but lighter two seater. I don't think the consumer will like that.

BTW Mark, Canada isn't the centre of the universe. I know a few people who own G-Wizs in London and who aren't environmentalists by any stretch of the imagination. That crude electric car certainly fulfils all their expectations already with few problems, and new ones in the pipeline will be better. Electric cars have a niche to fill and they fill it nicely.

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http://www.dailytech.com/Hope+for+Hy...ticle17537.htm

interesting :) Personally I think the fact that this not unsubstantial installation can only power 10-15 cars a day makes it unfeasible but still it's a start and it's interesting nonetheless

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

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BTW Mark, Canada isn't the centre of the universe. I know a few people who own G-Wizs in London and who aren't environmentalists by any stretch of the imagination. That crude electric car certainly fulfils all their expectations already with few problems, and new ones in the pipeline will be better. Electric cars have a niche to fill and they fill it nicely.

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No...I can only say though we are not the only cold climate. Half of the US has similar weather to me, as does Russia, parts of China, Korea, Japan and Northern Europe. If the battery powered car wont work here in the soft part of Canada, it likely wont work in about 60% of the markets who are buying cars. It isn't a smart business plan to develop something that wont work half of the year in 60% of the car markets of the world.

G-whiz's I am sure work great in congested London, but public transit there is so superior to most cars, I don't see any point in having a car to travel in the inner city of a metro location where there is an extensive subway and bus service. Where the electric car works in the same congested places cars are not as efficient to an extent as transit. Again, until that car is a CAR with all that entails and is an all weather solution, then it wont really sell to the masses. I don't care what country you are in, people buy cars usually because they want that personal convenience and the ability to carry a family possibly.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

No...I can only say though we are not the only cold climate. Half of the US has similar weather to me, as does Russia, parts of China, Korea, Japan and Northern Europe. If the battery powered car wont work here in the soft part of Canada, it likely wont work in about 60% of the markets who are buying cars. It isn't a smart business plan to develop something that wont work half of the year in 60% of the car markets of the world.

G-whiz's I am sure work great in congested London, but public transit there is so superior to most cars, I don't see any point in having a car to travel in the inner city of a metro location where there is an extensive subway and bus service. Where the electric car works in the same congested places cars are not as efficient to an extent as transit. Again, until that car is a CAR with all that entails and is an all weather solution, then it wont really sell to the masses. I don't care what country you are in, people buy cars usually because they want that personal convenience and the ability to carry a family possibly.

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Yeah mass transit is definitely the way for day to day travel in big cities. When I was back in Oz I got a lift to the train station every day and then walked to work and then took the bus back and then walked home EVERY day. Only ever used a car once in just under 2 years.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Yeah mass transit is definitely the way for day to day travel in big cities. When I was back in Oz I got a lift to the train station every day and then walked to work and then took the bus back and then walked home EVERY day. Only ever used a car once in just under 2 years.

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That doesn't really work as well as one would like in smaller centers like mine. We are a one car family right now and I am learning bus service once every 30 minutes sucks in the middle of winter...

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

That doesn't really work as well as one would like in smaller centers like mine. We are a one car family right now and I am learning bus service once every 30 minutes sucks in the middle of winter...

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Ditto. Before we got the Fiat we were a one car family and shall we say every day past the ETA for the car we went Caroline was getting more and more pissed at that little car for not turning up....

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Ditto. Before we got the Fiat we were a one car family and shall we say every day past the ETA for the car we went Caroline was getting more and more pissed at that little car for not turning up....

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I have to drive to Toronto 2 times a day right now if I want the car. Lucky for me, the boss works in the Eastern suburb of Scarborough and I can be there and back within the hour because she works a shift that starts after the morning rush and post the evening one. That said, I get another job, we will almost certainly need to put another car on the road.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

No...I can only say though we are not the only cold climate. Half of the US has similar weather to me, as does Russia, parts of China, Korea, Japan and Northern Europe. If the battery powered car wont work here in the soft part of Canada, it likely wont work in about 60% of the markets who are buying cars. It isn't a smart business plan to develop something that wont work half of the year in 60% of the car markets of the world.

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You raise some interesting examples there.

Lets take Northern Europe. In the UK, milk has been delivered to most urban homes for the past 40 years whatever the weather by electric milk floats. These things were crude way back when, now they look like museum pieces but you'll still find them working hard whatever the weather, whatever the temperature. So electric power works in cold weather.

Then you've got the Think which was one of the first properly usable electric cars on sale, designed in Norway where it is selling quite well. Norway is on a par with Canada when it comes to cold weather I believe. Of course there is the G-wiz which is selling well in London, still part of Northern Europe.

How about Denmark, I heard its pretty cold there too. They've got so little confidence in electric cars that they ran a pilot study with Better Place which found that lo and behold, electric cars do work in Denmark too and people are happy with them. Along with Israel, Denmark is investing 100s of millions of Euros to set up loads of electric charging points and battery swap stations and to lease thousands of electric cars.

How about China? Ever been there? Most Chinese can't be arsed to pedal their bicycles everywhere so they trade up to scooters as soon as they can afford them. Thing is noone buys petrol scooters if they can help it because electricity there is cheap as chips and petrol isn't. The roads there are already clogged up with electric powered scooters and bicycles.

Then you've got companies like BYD that build electric cars for the Chinese market and who are supposed to have more advanced technology than guys like GM and Toyota. Warren Buffett was so impressed by their chances that he invested $230 million into buying 10% of it. He's not often wrong.

I'm afraid events have already overtaken you to some extent Mark. In urban areas electric cars make sense. They may not work well in cold weather but that hasn't stopped them in the past and I don't think its going to stop them in the future.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

You raise some interesting examples there.

Lets take Northern Europe. In the UK, milk has been delivered to most urban homes for the past 40 years whatever the weather by electric milk floats. These things were crude way back when, now they look like museum pieces but you'll still find them working hard whatever the weather, whatever the temperature. So electric power works in cold weather.

Then you've got the Think which was one of the first properly usable electric cars on sale, designed in Norway where it is selling quite well. Norway is on a par with Canada when it comes to cold weather I believe. Of course there is the G-wiz which is selling well in London, still part of Northern Europe.

How about Denmark, I heard its pretty cold there too. They've got so little confidence in electric cars that they ran a pilot study with Better Place which found that lo and behold, electric cars do work in Denmark too and people are happy with them. Along with Israel, Denmark is investing 100s of millions of Euros to set up loads of electric charging points and battery swap stations and to lease thousands of electric cars.

How about China? Ever been there? Most Chinese can't be arsed to pedal their bicycles everywhere so they trade up to scooters as soon as they can afford them. Thing is noone buys petrol scooters if they can help it because electricity there is cheap as chips and petrol isn't. The roads there are already clogged up with electric powered scooters and bicycles.

Then you've got companies like BYD that build electric cars for the Chinese market and who are supposed to have more advanced technology than guys like GM and Toyota. Warren Buffett was so impressed by their chances that he invested $230 million into buying 10% of it. He's not often wrong.

I'm afraid events have already overtaken you to some extent Mark. In urban areas electric cars make sense. They may not work well in cold weather but that hasn't stopped them in the past and I don't think its going to stop them in the future.

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Here is the thing Dylan: When you take an electric battery with around a 100 mile range, and you ask it to not only power a motor, but keep the windsheild clear, and keep the occupants warm, you reduce it's range radically. Yes, they use G-whizs and the milk floats but their range is limited. In cities, I can see using them, but I suspect the Norwegians aren't too impressed with them if you get stuck in snow or servere cold. I know batteries are getting better, but I also know at - 20C how happy my battery in my car is to turn over the motor. I can tell you that you should talk to the Norwegians and the like and find out how well those cars work in that cold...

Hey..if if works, and people like it, and car companies can make money doing it, fill your boots...but consider me not really interested. A limited range car doesn't work for me. Just driving my wife to work is a 70 km round trip.....

The reason GM never put their electric car projects to test anywhere but Arizona and Southern California was to avoid the cold, and there, they discovered that the A/C on hot days was much the same as the heat...it really worked on the battery. Electric cars are constantly compromising their range for the hotel loads people expect from their cars....