Toyota quits F1 *confirmed*

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Originally Posted by truefan72

I completely agree with Ferrari's comments

this is Mosley's legacy, another 5-6 years of F1 going to the dogs, before all remnants of his FIA involvements are gone. Then perhaps manufacturers and proper teams will consider returning to a stable sport without the lunacy of an out of control president. As of right now, all these new entrants are poor excusef for teams that only managed tog et inot the sport through mosleys assitance and artificial policies. none of these teams are competnet or worthy of an F1 place IMO.

As to Brawn. lets get Real, Brawn GP in 2009 was Honda under a different name. Honda invested a sizable amount of money developing that car for a year and continued financial assistance to that team for part of the year.. They also sold the team for $1 to brawn, and maintained their grid spot without Brawn GP having to pay the massive entrance fee normally required. Furthermore they used suspect parts on their car (only deemed legal so Mosley could fracture FOTA) which subsequently gave them a huge advantage, allowing them to coast to WDC and WCC victory.

The constant rule changes, the gray areas, the pettiness of mosley and the FIA, the ridiculous fees and sheer banality of the way F1 is regulated and the unnecessary scandals had made F1 a toxic element to manufacturers.

hope Mosley is happy.

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I do not agree with your comments about Brawn. Barrichello mentioned that the atmosphere in the smaller team is better, not to mention that Ross used Mercedes engines. About the grey area, it is good for F1 teams to be smart and need I remind you that Williams and Toyota also benefited from this, however, they were unable to stay in front of RBR, Ferrari and McLaren-Mercedes. However I agree that the constant rule changes are not good for the sport and hopefully after 2010 at least for 10 years there will be no more changes. About the quality of new teams, let's wait to see what happens. They might be good, if not, people will start cheering for the underdogs again :)

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Originally Posted by scaliwag

It gives me no pleasure in writing this, however I've warned the forum on many occasions that manufacturers are not the life blood of F1 they could well be it's death knell, and as usual I've been ridiculed and once or twice abused for my views, however I stick to my guns

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I have always thought that to be a very sensible view, and not just in relation to F1, but other forms of motorsport too.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I have always thought that to be a very sensible view, and not just in relation to F1, but other forms of motorsport too.

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Yes but you claim that the BTCC is going gangbusters at the moment so I really do have to disagree.

Yeah it's nice to see independants but the real heart of top level motorsport is factory teams. I think it's possibly less important in F1 because they don't actually race anything even remotely close to a production car but manufacturers do make motorsport more popular and when the regs are done they don't always ruin it.

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Originally Posted by truefan72

I completely agree with Ferrari's comments

this is Mosley's legacy, another 5-6 years of F1 going to the dogs, before all remnants of his FIA involvements are gone. Then perhaps manufacturers and proper teams will consider returning to a stable sport without the lunacy of an out of control president. As of right now, all these new entrants are poor excusef for teams that only managed tog et inot the sport through mosleys assitance and artificial policies. none of these teams are competnet or worthy of an F1 place IMO.

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Did you forget? The entire world is currently in a recession. The recent withdrawal of Manufacturers is bigger than the shenanigans made by FIA, Mad Max or FOTA.

Formula 1 and EVERY other racing series in the world (NASCAR, WRC, IRL, etc) is going through a downward phase right now. When a global economic crisis hits, manufacturers will reduce or drop their participation in a racing series.

All of the major auto manufacturers in the world have problems right now and they've been losing billions every year. Their number 1 priority is make sure they survive, while continuing to sell automobiles & keeping workers employed. Whether you like it or not, F1 is a tiny piece of their marketing mix and operations. After all, it is just a glitzy sideshow.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Yes but you claim that the BTCC is going gangbusters at the moment so I really do have to disagree.

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Nice to see the usual record has remained stuck during your absence.

In fact it is exactly the BTCC I was thinking of, because having 10 manufacturers involved in 1994 might have seemed excellent, but was clearly unsustainable. When some of those manufacturers go without success for any length of time, or if it doesn't suit their marketing strategies, they will pull out. Same in the WRC, same in F1. There is no point their being involved any more. At present, Toyota will clearly not become involved in any branch of motorsport once they leave F1. What would be the point?

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Originally Posted by Daniel

I think it's possibly less important in F1 because they don't actually race anything even remotely close to a production car but manufacturers do make motorsport more popular and when the regs are done they don't always ruin it.

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If they didn't think there were benefits to be derived from being in F1, they wouldn't be there. I think these things are so nebulous as to be impossible to define, but I'm not a marketing man, nor a corporate strategist. It is my belief that participation in F1 can probably never be truly justified in the sense of a correlation between investment in F1 and cars sold as a result.

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Originally Posted by F1boat

Interesting that they fail to mention Brawn GP which won more victories, not to mention titles, than Honda, BMW and Toyota put together.

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And all that with more Honda money than any team ever invested in one season.

The conclusion being that manufacturer money and backing is what got Brawn their success. So what exactly should Brawn GP's case prove?

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

Sad day for F1, good day for Sauber and Mr. Theissen who now probably doesn't have to get involved with touring cars or whatever...

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Not necessarily - Toyota still have a place on next years grid as they signed concorde.

They could sell - lock stock - and still leave Mario and his band up the over engineered creek sans rowing instrument. Dave Richards could have a nice easy way into F1......

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Originally Posted by truefan72

I wonder if Aguri could come to some sort of arrangement with the toyota folks. would be nice

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I hope that Sauber will take up the place left open by Toyota as they are worth it even though Williams are trying to block them out of obvious personal grudge.

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Originally Posted by F1boat

Although Ferrari blames Max.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80013

"In reality the steady trickle of desertion is more the result of a war against the big car manufacturers by those who managed the sport, than the effects of the economical that affected Formula 1 over the last years," it read.

There is also another quite nasty remark.
""Formula 1 continues losing important parts: over the last 12 months Honda, BMW, Bridgestone and this morning Toyota announced their retirements. In exchange, if one could call it that, Manor, Lotus [because of the team of Colin Chapman, Jim Clark and Ayrton Senna, to name a few, there is hardly more than the name], USF1 and Campos Meta arrived."

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or, in the words of Marie Antionette... "Bread? Then, let them eat cake."

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Originally Posted by ioan

And all that with more Honda money than any team ever invested in one season.

The conclusion being that manufacturer money and backing is what got Brawn their success. So what exactly should Brawn GP's case prove?

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Manu money and wonderful Mercedes engine, but no factory team. :)

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Originally Posted by F1boat

Manu money and wonderful Mercedes engine, but no factory team. :)

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Manufacturer money = factory team, no matter the name.
Sauber BMW was a manufacturer team even if they chose to continue to use the Sauber name and kept Sauber on board as a consultant and he still owned 20% of the team.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Manufacturer money = factory team, no matter the name.
Sauber BMW was a manufacturer team even if they chose to continue to use the Sauber name and kept Sauber on board as a consultant and he still owned 20% of the team.

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Well maybe our definition varies. I have nothing against manu money. I dislike the manu corporate approach, which, I believe is a failure. Compare BMW to Williams BMW and you will see the difference.

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Originally Posted by F1boat

Compare BMW to Williams BMW and you will see the difference.

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Yep, BMW beat them every season even the 2009 one.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Yep, BMW beat them every season even the 2009 one.

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BMW never beat Williams BMW ;)

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Originally Posted by Langdale Forest

The only reason Renault would leave is because of the incident in Singapore and if they do leave, they should move to the WRC because there is not enough teams there.

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Sorry but nobody follows the WRC, not really.

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Originally Posted by Lemmy-Boy

Did you forget? The entire world is currently in a recession. The recent withdrawal of Manufacturers is bigger than the shenanigans made by FIA, Mad Max or FOTA.

Formula 1 and EVERY other racing series in the world (NASCAR, WRC, IRL, etc) is going through a downward phase right now. When a global economic crisis hits, manufacturers will reduce or drop their participation in a racing series.

All of the major auto manufacturers in the world have problems right now and they've been losing billions every year. Their number 1 priority is make sure they survive, while continuing to sell automobiles & keeping workers employed. Whether you like it or not, F1 is a tiny piece of their marketing mix and operations. After all, it is just a glitzy sideshow.

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Not all, the world's fourth biggest manufacturer Hyundai/Kia is doing exceptionally well and increasing its market share in virtually all markets. Who could lure them into F1?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Nice to see the usual record has remained stuck during your absence.

In fact it is exactly the BTCC I was thinking of, because having 10 manufacturers involved in 1994 might have seemed excellent, but was clearly unsustainable. When some of those manufacturers go without success for any length of time, or if it doesn't suit their marketing strategies, they will pull out. Same in the WRC, same in F1. There is no point their being involved any more. At present, Toyota will clearly not become involved in any branch of motorsport once they leave F1. What would be the point?



If they didn't think there were benefits to be derived from being in F1, they wouldn't be there. I think these things are so nebulous as to be impossible to define, but I'm not a marketing man, nor a corporate strategist. It is my belief that participation in F1 can probably never be truly justified in the sense of a correlation between investment in F1 and cars sold as a result.

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This is what my Marketing dissertation is on this year. In 1960's America it was win on Sunday, sell on Monday.

Is success counted on sales or technological advancement. Maybe the ever more restrictive regulations are preventing the manufacturers developing technology for future road cars.

Do not forget that Toy are in Taxi Cab racing in NA. in a big way.

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Leave the F1 Toyota!

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Originally Posted by F1boat

I do not agree with your comments about Brawn. Barrichello mentioned that the atmosphere in the smaller team is better, not to mention that Ross used Mercedes engines. About the grey area, it is good for F1 teams to be smart and need I remind you that Williams and Toyota also benefited from this, however, they were unable to stay in front of RBR, Ferrari and McLaren-Mercedes. However I agree that the constant rule changes are not good for the sport and hopefully after 2010 at least for 10 years there will be no more changes. About the quality of new teams, let's wait to see what happens. They might be good, if not, people will start cheering for the underdogs again :)

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So how good would the Brawn have been had Honda not been behind its development throughout late 2007 and 2008? The car that won the championship in my view is one of the most expensive, if not THE most expensively developed F1 car in history, designed by a team under Honda control and management with access to their R and D. Lets blow away the fairy tale crap here, Brawn winning is not so far different to McLaren or Ferrari winning, big manufacturer money getting big points is the name of the game here.

As for Toyota, there are big reasons for them to leave, their lack of performance being only one small one.

Will the makers be missed? I think they will, they bring a lot of money and sponsorship to the sport as well as raising its profile with F1 being used in advertising a lot. When they leave, they will take a lot of that with them. Not only that but the FIA will be able to rule F1 unopposed by powerful lobby groups, small independent teams struggling for survival can be bought off, makers are harder.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Lets blow away the fairy tale crap here

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There is still a fairytale aspect, in that the personnel at Brackley went from the scrapheap to the championship in a very short space of time. If it wasn't for the efforts of Brawn, Fry and Co the 'most expensively developed F1 car in history' would never have hit the track.

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Originally Posted by BeansBeansBeans

There is still a fairytale aspect, in that the personnel at Brackley went from the scrapheap to the championship in a very short space of time. If it wasn't for the efforts of Brawn, Fry and Co the 'most expensively developed F1 car in history' would never have hit the track.

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I agree, the fairytale aspect was on the administrative side and goes as far as shoehorning in a brand new engine in a matter of weeks. The overall pace of the car was still thanks to a manufacturer owned and supported outfit though.

Well, the team was given very strict goals before the start of the season - win or departure. From this point of view Toyota's decision wasn't surprising/unexpected unlike Honda/BMW - actually the bosses pretty much kept their word! Maybe a title contention could have saved the team, but that's purely a speculation.

But life goes on and Toyota can find a new challenge in other motorsports. From 2011 onwards we will see significant rule changes in various series (DTM, WTCC, WRC, LMS), so one could expect them at least somewhere and more successfully than F1. ;) Their promoted "Toyota Way" probably didn't quite work out like they expected during those 8 season in F1, but at least they tried and got a new experience. :up: What I appreciate very much is that they decided to set the whole team up entirely by themselves and didn't by an existing outfit like BMW/Honda/Renault did. That's why I don't expect a buy-out of the Cologne team, but that Toyota will start using their very 'own' factory for other motorsport activities.

Next year is going to be quite different and it's going to be interesting to witness it, but the main thing I fear with all those manufacturer withdrawals - which hasn't been highlighted in this thread at all - is that the level of competition will decrease. Brawn/Sauber/etc may not have the backing they had during manufacturer days and McLaren/Ferrari/RBR may have an easier run. And of course it's hard to expect any of the new teams becoming a major player or even a midfielder straightaway. For instance in 98/99 McLaren and Ferrari were pretty much the only manufacturer-supported teams (maybe with the exception of Prost-Peugeot?!) and they were way above others, who were struggling with lack of finances, underpowered engines, etc.

The way Toyota treated Ove Andersson was a disgrace so I won't be shedding a tear for them. They had the makings of a good team with Andersson at the helm, hiring Gascoigne - no coincidence its best results were with these two being given freedom.

When BMW/Honda quitted, people were more positive about those teams and especially in Honda's case there was a lot of disappointment on these forums despite two previously abysmal seasons, so... I think folks should show at least some respect about ToyotaF1. Overall they weren't too impressive, but at least in some way different to others. :p : You will never see their peculiarity back in F1 anyway, so why bash. Btw, Team Princial Yamashina cried at the press conference after the announcement, so that's not really true that the team is passionless, soulless, etc, like is tried to be made out. ;)

No it's called "saving face". Toyota screwed Ove Andersson over - a man who set up TTE in 1979 with impressive results for them and what does the Japanese board do? Sack him.

When he left Toyota F1 went downhill - it's all of their own making.

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Originally Posted by I am evil Homer

No it's called "saving face". Toyota screwed Ove Andersson over - a man who set up TTE in 1979 with impressive results for them and what does the Japanese board do? Sack him.

When he left Toyota F1 went downhill - it's all of their own making.

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Wasn't Ove's departure due to "compulsory retirement age"? Although in a competitive sport like F1 this shouldn't be really followed that strictly.

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Originally Posted by I am evil Homer

No it's called "saving face". Toyota screwed Ove Andersson over - a man who set up TTE in 1979 with impressive results for them and what does the Japanese board do? Sack him.

When he left Toyota F1 went downhill - it's all of their own making.

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They didn't sack him, they retired him and kept him on as an adviser.

It ought to be remembered too that it had been implied that both Andersson and Brunner had been involved in the decision to use Ferrari's 2002 plans that they had bought on CD from an ex-Ferrari employee, it was therefore not surprising to see both leave the team soon after.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

What about Ferrari?

Also, don't manufacturers derive greater benefits from having their own team, rather than simply supplying engines? Aren't Williams remembered for winning titles with Hill and Villeneuve (just as an example) rather than Renault?

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Arrows point taken, however Williams have always been an independent team, over the years they have used many different engines, Williams have always been solely a racing team, until quite recently the vast majority of teams were independent, agreed one or two teams did manufacture sports cars, as for Ferrari they were invited into F1 post 1945 by Bernie, and only agreed to join with a guaranteed veto.
As for me the best racing was from the 1950's to 1990,s.

Regards scaliwag.