Kimi's future - No racing in 2010?

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

I think Raikonnen would fit in well at Mclaren - better than before.

The change that has been noticed by f1 journalists and even the interviews given by Whitmarsh in his approach and the "official" forgiveness by Bernie a few races ago when he publicly joined Lewis at a press gathering at the Mclaren motor home declares that it is a clean slate.

And Hamilton has demonstrated his ability to take care of Alonso and Raikonnen knows the Massa weakness.

Mclaren might even find their next "dream team": Prost-Lauda now Hamilton-Raikonnen.

It is fun to speculate. One thing we can all rely on is that it would probably be the calmest team of drivers and the quietest in the whole paddock!!

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Kimi has his contract and want to keep it even 2010 as expected.

But - if Ferrari “unilateral” breaks it and Kimi must leave Ferrari (against his wish) then I would like to see him back in a McLaren again.

I think that Schumacher has still much to say in the Ferrari team and since he like's Felipe a lot, (who helped him when he was active and who he called him his little brother - and nothing wrong with that). Felipe has been at Ferrari a long time now and works very well together the people there and the fact is that Ferrari would like to see Massa as WDC rather than Kimi and are naturally working in that direction (with Schumi helping) which not always be in fully accordance what Kimi want - of course.

That's normally and happen in every team and the team must of course make their choice - but however it's a little disadvantage for Kimi. We can see that after Massa's regrettable accident now when Kimi has the first driver position are his results been very good - and inasmuch as we even know that Ferrari doesn't develop the 2009 year's car any more, we can only think that team and Kimi work today better together than before.

So I think the first choice for Kimi still is Ferrari and then McLaren. I’m quite sure McLaren are interested to get him back.. the question is more what Kimi like’s ..

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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

Stupid logic.

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Why's that?

You believe that a no one like our devoted 'saint' has the moral grounds to talk like that about Enzo Ferrari?!

Apropos of Kimi, I find it interesting that since Felipe has been sidelined by that accident Kimi is having a better time.
Either the car suddenly became better, which I doubt, as they stopped development work after the Hungarian GP, or he was being psychologically dominated by Massa at Ferrari, which means he's cool attitude is just a smoke screen.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Apropos of Kimi, I find it interesting that since Felipe has been sidelined by that accident Kimi is having a better time.
Either the car suddenly became better, which I doubt, as they stopped development work after the Hungarian GP, or he was being psychologically dominated by Massa at Ferrari, which means he's cool attitude is just a smoke screen.

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Or maybe the team is concentrating on him now? To be honest, I don't think anything has changed except the circuits have suited Ferrari and Spa has always been Kimi's circuit. Kimi seems to have a better time since his teammate isn't matching him. He is no better or worse than before.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Why's that?

You believe that a no one like our devoted 'saint' has the moral grounds to talk like that about Enzo Ferrari?!

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Well, since you never achieved the position of F1 team boss, you therefore can't critisise Ron Dennis or Martin Whitmarsh.


Stupid concept, isn't it?

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

Or maybe the team is concentrating on him now?

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I think so as well.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

Or maybe the team is concentrating on him now? To be honest, I don't think anything has changed except the circuits have suited Ferrari and Spa has always been Kimi's circuit. Kimi seems to have a better time since his teammate isn't matching him. He is no better or worse than before.

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But the team was giving equal chances to both as far as I know. Does Kimi need no. 1 status in order to be able to deliver?

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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

Well, since you never achieved the position of F1 team boss, you therefore can't critisise Ron Dennis or Martin Whitmarsh.

Stupid concept, isn't it?

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Criticize them for what for a race strategy mistake? For Spygate?! Or for their lifetime achievements?

I never said I can criticize Ron Dennis (for example) as far as his achievements as a team grounder (developer) go, and that's exactly what our sanctified friend thinks he can do about the founder of the most coveted car manufacturer and F1 team.

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Originally Posted by ioan

But the team was giving equal chances to both as far as I know. Does Kimi need no. 1 status in order to be able to deliver?

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Good question. I don't know.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Criticize them for what for a race strategy mistake? For Spygate?! Or for their lifetime achievements?

I never said I can criticize Ron Dennis (for example) as far as his achievements as a team grounder (developer) go, and that's exactly what our sanctified friend thinks he can do about the founder of the most coveted car manufacturer and F1 team.

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You can respect someones achievements while still critisising their faults. Ferrari was no saint.

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Originally Posted by ioan

But the team was giving equal chances to both as far as I know. Does Kimi need no. 1 status in order to be able to deliver?

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I think he needs to get more involved in the decision making process. Schumacher eluded to this earlier this year.
Massa and Raikkonen have very different driving styles, and perhaps Kimi is not forceful enough when it comes to making team decisions go his way.

I am not sure about this No.1 driver stuff that gets repeated constantly. Both drivers have their own race team and the "team" of Badoer/Fisichella is also led by Smedley like it was the case with Massa.

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Originally Posted by henners88

At last someone on my wave length. I wish everyone thought like you ... :)

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Don't wish for things you don't know very well. ;)

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

Good question. I don't know.

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I don't know it either and I'm a bit surprised that Kimi is needing some ego massaging as it doesn't mesh with the image he's trying to project about himself.

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Originally Posted by ioan

I don't know it either and I'm a bit surprised that Kimi is needing some ego massaging as it doesn't mesh with the image he's trying to project about himself.

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In an interview of over twenty people that know Raikonnen, amongst them Peter Sauber and one of his closest friends Tom Vilander, your comment is totally erroneous or worse.

The press make things up about the Finn when he says nothing or little - which is usual and he knows that.

Secondly, anyone following Raikonnen since the days that Sauber fought for his Superlicense will know that Kimi is not projecting an "image" - he is who he is and there is no agenda or dishonest pretentous image management that is so prevalent in the world today.

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Originally Posted by ioan

I don't know it either and I'm a bit surprised that Kimi is needing some ego massaging as it doesn't mesh with the image he's trying to project about himself.

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I don't think he is projecting anything, he just is that way, but nobody is immune to pressure, nobody.

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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

I think he needs to get more involved in the decision making process. Schumacher eluded to this earlier this year.
Massa and Raikkonen have very different driving styles, and perhaps Kimi is not forceful enough when it comes to making team decisions go his way.

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A Ronnie Peterson moment!

Kimi may be thought by some that he should be more involved but he does not want to be and it would complicate things. He is not the sort of driver that huddles with the team and spends hours on a technical issue and we all know that.

But Domenicali has said that they work with Kimi that way - he tells them what he wants and when it is doen he goes out and drives the car and if it is good, excellent if not they try again.

The thng is that Kimi delivers and does not give up. The win in Spa was the result of Raikonnen not Ferrari.

He reminds me of SuperSwede- as close as someone can be today I suppose.

During his Lotus days when Andretti was there the mechanics used to unofficially intervene on the side of Ronnie. He would be quicker than Andretti in practice and Chapman would then tell them to put more fuel into Petersons car to slow him down so that Andretti would be on pole for the grand prix.

Chapman would find out if they did not - which they tried - and there would trouble to say the least and the fuel would go in.

Another great story is when they asked Ronnie what sort of set-up he wanted he would say to just put whetever Andretti had on the car and would drive it. So utterly sublime.

Those were great irreverent years in f1. Drivers could really shine. Great stories from people such as former chief Lotus mechanic Bob Dance.

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

In an interview of over twenty people that know Raikonnen, amongst them Peter Sauber and one of his closest friends Tom Vilander, your comment is totally erroneous or worse.

The press make things up about the Finn when he says nothing or little - which is usual and he knows that.

Secondly, anyone following Raikonnen since the days that Sauber fought for his Superlicense will know that Kimi is not projecting an "image" - he is who he is and there is no agenda or dishonest pretentous image management that is so prevalent in the world today.

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Whatever! :cool:

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Originally Posted by ioan

Whatever! :cool:

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Come on, let the guy state his opinion, let him be, please.

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Originally Posted by jas123f1

Kimi has his contract and want to keep it even 2010 as expected.

But - if Ferrari “unilateral” breaks it and Kimi must leave Ferrari (against his wish) then I would like to see him back in a McLaren again.

I think that Schumacher has still much to say in the Ferrari team and since he like's Felipe a lot, (who helped him when he was active and who he called him his little brother - and nothing wrong with that). Felipe has been at Ferrari a long time now and works very well together the people there and the fact is that Ferrari would like to see Massa as WDC rather than Kimi and are naturally working in that direction (with Schumi helping) which not always be in fully accordance what Kimi want - of course.

That's normally and happen in every team and the team must of course make their choice - but however it's a little disadvantage for Kimi. We can see that after Massa's regrettable accident now when Kimi has the first driver position are his results been very good - and inasmuch as we even know that Ferrari doesn't develop the 2009 year's car any more, we can only think that team and Kimi work today better together than before.

So I think the first choice for Kimi still is Ferrari and then McLaren. I’m quite sure McLaren are interested to get him back.. the question is more what Kimi like’s ..

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Your point makes me wonder whether Ferrari are Schumacher dependent? Is the team unsure of itself and does allo too much input from the German.

Their first inclination was to "run back to daddy" when Massa was injured and when that was impossible they panicked and put Badoer in the car.

Now Badoer is ridiculously blaming "the media" for his unseating. How delusional can one be?

I still insist that it was Raikonnen that won and it flattered the car. The FI is a better chassis [shock!] but the Ferrari was quicker in the KERS-advantage sectors but it was the FI that qualified on pole.

In Valencia Raikonnen and Barrichello were the two quickest drivers at pit in and out.

Given the close race run and that both Kimi and Fisi ran the same strategy and at the last pitstop Kimi just got out ahead while as I recall their stop times were the same, Raikonnen won because he did what Schumacher was a good at doing - being quick into and out of the pits.

So it was not that Ferrari worked any harder for him, just that Kimi set himself up for the win on that first lap out of La Source and his ability to be quicker in strategic areas such as the pit in-out, won him the grand prix.

This ability and abolute self-confidence is what makes him the better driver for Ferrari to retain. Massa does not have that albeit that he is an excellent driver.

Problem is that if Alonso joins in 2010, it will have been via such as serenade and the Spaniard is such a cry baby as we discovered at Mclaren, it could become untenable for Kimi to stay at Ferrari and in his interests to move back to Mclaren alongside Hamilton.

Hamilton is one thing and that is he is like Raikonnen - the identity of his teammate does not faze him - he gets on with the job.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

Come on, let the guy state his opinion, let him be, please.

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Did I stop him or what?! :confused:

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Originally Posted by ioan

But the team was giving equal chances to both as far as I know. Does Kimi need no. 1 status in order to be able to deliver?

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No- the team as not giving equal chances to both - Massa helped Kimi 2007 and Kimi did the same to Massa 2008.. Every team make their plans and you can see (if you want) that Massa has been the first driver 2009.. and i agreed with the team - Massa deserves a WDC-title after al his years at Ferrari and al the development he has made with his driving..

And we should don’t forget that Massa helped Schumi … and then Kimi … so it’s fair to give him a chance to the title now - it's his turn and I'm sure every one knows that at Ferrari.

Don’t let your antipathy against Kimi make you blind.

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

There was a quote on the wall in the offices of the Home Office in the UK that said "if you torture the statistics enough they will tell you anything".

The way you have engineered your retort is just that - in order to support your artgument. The universe you have used is too small therefore the picture shown is a distorted one.

This is the reason the beginning I have taken was from the period that Mclaren came into its own as a top constructor and at the same time Ferrari team was literally taken by Niki Lauda and reingineered. At the time he spent six weeks testing from light until dark and lived at the circuit only returning him once a week.

And since 1974, the year this all coincided because 1973 was the year that both Lotus and Tyrrell peaked, never to return to their former glories.

So it was the beginning of a new era and since then the numbers I provide are the facts. Your view or my view is not relevant here because we have 35 years of what actually happened.

I refer you to my original post above on this matter because it encompasses the entire period, not your cherry picked short period.

Lastly, this debate referred to the driver's championship only, not the contructor's. Remember the original question was which team did a driver have a greater probability of winning and I have shown my case and stated that that is Mclaren not Ferrari.

I am not beholden to any team as I do not support teams and never have, I have favorite drivers.

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OK, but I think that the Constructor's title is a better indication of a car's capability of winning. If a team wins the WCC without the WDC, you have clear evidence that the car would have won the WDC if one of the drivers had been capable (or fit for the entire year). Over your measuring period, McLaren won the WCC 8 times (1974, 1984, 1985, 1988-91, 1998), and Ferrari won 14 times (1975-77, 1979, 1981-2, 1999-2004, 2007-8). Now, based on points McLaren would have won 2007, but based on the team data issue, perhaps all the points scored by all 4 drivers should have been scored for Ferrari!

Yes, Ferrari benefitted mightly from Schumacher, but without Prost and Senna, McLaren's result would be pretty thin gruel, too. Even throwing out 2007, a 13-8 edge for Ferrari says that if you really want to win, drive a red car.

ClarkFan

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Originally Posted by jas123f1

- Massa deserves a WDC-title after al his years at Ferrari and al the development he has made with his driving..

And we should don’t forget that Massa helped Schumi … and then Kimi … so it’s fair to give him a chance to the title now - it's his turn and I'm sure every one knows that at Ferrari.

Don’t let your antipathy against Kimi make you blind.

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nobody deserves a title, it is earned.

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

I still insist that it was Raikonnen that won and it flattered the car. The FI is a better chassis [shock!] but the Ferrari was quicker in the KERS-advantage sectors but it was the FI that qualified on pole.

In Valencia Raikonnen and Barrichello were the two quickest drivers at pit in and out.

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Hey SD. I agree with a lot of what you say, but please could you spell it Raikkonen? Or Kimi, thats easier.

Doesnt matter otherwise except makes you look stupid. Even if you were not.

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Originally Posted by truefan72

nobody deserves a title, it is earned.

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And whoever wins the title is the best driver that year. Period.

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Originally Posted by Dzeidzei

Hey SD. I agree with a lot of what you say, but please could you spell it Raikkonen? Or Kimi, thats easier.

Doesnt matter otherwise except makes you look stupid. Even if you were not.

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:up:

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Originally Posted by jas123f1

No- the team as not giving equal chances to both - Massa helped Kimi 2007 and Kimi did the same to Massa 2008.

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Looks pretty much equal to me. Don't know what looks inequitable to you. :confused:

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Originally Posted by Dzeidzei

Hey SD. I agree with a lot of what you say, but please could you spell it Raikkonen? Or Kimi, thats easier.

Doesnt matter otherwise except makes you look stupid. Even if you were not.

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What a lovely family photo. Heartbreaking! :rotflmao:

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Originally Posted by henners88

We should all start writing full names rather than initials too, then we don't look lazy even if we are not.. :p

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Speak for yourself. Personally, I'm just Lazy :D

What will Kimi do? Who knows. Kimi could do anything.

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Originally Posted by ioan

What a lovely family photo. Heartbreaking! :rotflmao:

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Talking about family, Kimi's grandmother passed away last week. :(

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

Talking about family, Kimi's grandmother passed away last week. :(

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Sorry to hear that. :(
My sincere condolences to the family.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Sorry to hear that. :(
My sincere condolences to the family.

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You? Sincere? Can you proove that?

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Originally Posted by Dzeidzei

You? Sincere? Can you proove that?

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You could at least show some manners when we talk about dead people. :\

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Originally Posted by ioan

You could at least show some manners when we talk about dead people. :\

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Well, you could show some manners. Sometime. Anytime. Of course everyone is sorry when something like that happens, dont be a moron.

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Originally Posted by Dzeidzei

Well, you could show some manners. Sometime. Anytime. Of course everyone is sorry when something like that happens, dont be a moron.

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Post reported.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Post reported.

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Congrats. Good for you. But thats in your blood. East Europeans are taught to report on suspicious behaviour. Keep on reporting!

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Originally Posted by ioan

Post reported.

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What does that help? People report you all the time and you never really get banned.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

What does that help? People report you all the time and you never really get banned.

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It spares me time from answering some of your posts.
I don't get banned? Good joke.
I don't get banned when you want it? That's maybe because unlike you I don not go around posting xenophobic insults.

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Originally Posted by ioan

It spares me time from answering some of your posts.
I don't get banned? Good joke.
I don't get banned when you want it? That's maybe because unlike you I don not go around posting xenophobic insults.

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I don't insult people, I guarantee that no other poster on this or any other forum I write thinks so. The only times I've written things that are not so nice is when you answer to a perfectly normal post with an insult.