Webber--dirty driver and hypocrite

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11th May 2009, 08:58
SGWilko

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

http://www.crankshafted.com/upload/f...lingalonso.jpg

Well, I still think Webber left too little room! But at least he realized his mistake quickly and allowed Alonso to get back to the racing track.

Darn it - I stand corrected. Now, where is my sword...... ;)
11th May 2009, 09:15
millencolin

Ok, forgive me for being a bit late, due to the fact that as soon I finish watching a race, i go to sleep then straight to work next morning...

But you call that dirty driving? I call that BLOODY EXCITING! and not just because I'm an Aussie, i mean he was overtaken then took that spot back in a few hundred metres! This is what f1 needs MORE of, if it wasnt for that, the race would be boring as bat****.
11th May 2009, 09:41
Knock-on

I saw great driving.

If this was dirty, then bring on the filth.
11th May 2009, 09:50
EuroTroll

Quote:

Originally Posted by millencolin

Ok, forgive me for being a bit late, due to the fact that as soon I finish watching a race, i go to sleep then straight to work next morning...

But you call that dirty driving? I call that BLOODY EXCITING! and not just because I'm an Aussie, i mean he was overtaken then took that spot back in a few hundred metres! This is what f1 needs MORE of, if it wasnt for that, the race would be boring as bat****.

Ok, but imagine this...

In a parallel universe, an F1 race is held. Now, things are a bit different there. Catalunya is part of the Portuguese Empire. But the track is the same and the beginning of the race unfolds in exactly the same way. And then, Alonso comes up behind Webber...

Now, Alonso is slip-streaming. Webber sees him getting closer, and at just the right moment - while Alonso is still behind - moves to the right to claim the inside line into the first corner in the name of the Kiwi Empire (whom he represents, West-side!). Alonso moves with him and gets back into the slip-stream. Closer, closer, closer. Alonso then pulls a hard left to take the outside line, and gets ahead. Alonso brakes for the corner - but Webber dives inside and brakes much later. Webber retakes the position. The Kiwis celebrate. The Portuguese curse. And everybody else is just happy because they've seen a wonderful bit of clean hard racing.

D'you get my drift? ;)
11th May 2009, 10:13
Brown, Jon Brow

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJL25

With fans like these, is it any wonder many say that F1 is boring... you see some high quality racing between two drivers who don't give an inch, absolutely epic stuff, and you lot are having the worlds biggest cry because oh its all too aggressive!

Maybe the FIA have it all wrong, they should be concentrating on making it HARDER for the cars to overtake as that is clearly what some of you want.

Mark knew that if Alonso got past his race was stuffed, so he had a big go to try and hold the position, just as Alonso was having a big go to try and take the position. One driver won, the other didn't, its called motor racing! This is serious high stakes stuff fellahs! Its not a bloody tea party, bloody hell....

I can't agree more! :up:

People who call themselves 'fans' don't like exciting racing! I bet Markasilly thinks Mansell passing Senna in Spain when he was trying to squeeze Senna out was dangerous. :rolleyes:

I can't watch exciting F1 racing like Webber versus Alonso without getting sexually aroused. We want more racing like this, not less.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/facepalm.jpg
11th May 2009, 10:17
Brown, Jon Brow

Quote:

Originally Posted by studiose

Curiously, this drum is still banged on this thread. Endlessly.

You guys do know that blocking hinders overtaking, right? Is an enemy of overtaking. Is a... you know. What kryptonite is to Superman, blocking is to overtaking.

Without such choppy-choppies being tolerated, overtaking would be easier. As in, not as difficult. As in... you know?

And Rollo - well done fellow, you've nailed it! :crazy: :laugh:

Defensive driving is just as exciting to watch overtaking.

Imagine watching a football match in which one team doesn't have a defence. Sure there would be lots of goals, but it would be boring after 5 minutes. It would be like watching Basketball, and who wants that? :p
11th May 2009, 10:42
EuroTroll

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

Defensive driving is just as exciting to watch overtaking.

Imagine watching a football match in which one team doesn't have a defence. Sure there would be lots of goals, but it would be boring after 5 minutes. It would be like watching Basketball, and who wants that? :p

Yes, of course.

I just hate chopping. You know? Moves done with the attitude of "We're alongside, so I'm gonna veer into you. Feeling lucky today, punk?"

There's no skill in that. No elaborate thought. It's just bullying.

The majority of you obviously think that's ok. I don't. One of them "differences of opinion", I guess.
11th May 2009, 10:51
Blancvino

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

:rolleyes: Fair and clean. Don't be frightened by aggressive driving.

Forcing him to the grass through pit exit is not aggressive, it's blocking!
11th May 2009, 10:53
leopard

Quote:

Originally Posted by henners88

Its funny how this move wasn't even discussed by the drivers post race and not a single complaint has been raised. Alonso himself has not expressed any anger over the incident, and the fact he kept full throttle shows he is a true racer through and through.

He's passed anger management course, it sent forth fresh water and ruled out the bitter one, keep cool keep driving.
11th May 2009, 10:59
EuroTroll

Quote:

Originally Posted by leopardsleeping

He's passed anger management course, it sent forth fresh water and ruled out the bitter one, keep cool keep driving.

I just have to say it, mate. About 90% of the time, I have no idea what you're talking about. Is it some kind of code? :)
11th May 2009, 11:24
stevie_gerrard

A super move. Yeh there was a risk when Alonso was forced to overtake him on the grass, cause he could have caused a serious accident, but for me, Alonso wouldnt have taken that risk if he didnt think he could pull it off. Mark did ever so well to get the place back as well.
11th May 2009, 11:25
EuroTroll

Quote:

Originally Posted by studiose

I just have to say it, mate. About 90% of the time, I have no idea what you're talking about. Is it some kind of code? :)

I exaggerate. Read some of your other posts in other threads - they make sense. So let's replace "about 90% of the time" with "at times". :)
11th May 2009, 11:26
EuroTroll

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevie_gerrard

Mark did ever so well to get the place back as well.

For the record, I don't think anyone is denying that.
11th May 2009, 11:40
ShiftingGears

It was spectacular driving on both drivers behalf. End of story.
11th May 2009, 11:51
EuroTroll

Quote:

Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

It was spectacular driving on both drivers behalf. End of story.

You forgot to add "nuff said" and "case closed". ;) Oh yeah, and "fact!". :p :
11th May 2009, 11:55
ShiftingGears

Quote:

Originally Posted by studiose

You forgot to add "nuff said" and "case closed". ;) Oh yeah, and "fact!". :p :

:laugh:

Yeah, I gotta work on that.
11th May 2009, 12:12
wedge

Quote:

Originally Posted by markabilly

In the old days, when real men drove F1, as in the 50-70's, (not the silly candy ass kids like Webber) the situation was way too dangerous and the drivers policed themselves.

This is 2009.

Stirling Moss is quite happy to move with the times.

Go join JYS in 1960s timewarp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by studiose

You guys do know that blocking hinders overtaking, right? Is an enemy of overtaking. Is a... you know. What kryptonite is to Superman, blocking is to overtaking.

Without such choppy-choppies being tolerated, overtaking would be easier. As in, not as difficult. As in... you know?

You're missing the point. It's not just overtaking fans crave, its close racing.

Blocking is racing. The guy infront has every right to defend his position just as the guy behind has every right to attack.
11th May 2009, 12:27
markabilly

Okay, this time it is Webber trying to pass Fred or pass MS. MS or fred does the chops back and forth on Webber or Button, (which is what I am talking about--I should try to figure out how to upload the tv video of the first part)

Anyway much screeching, whining and tears would pop all over the place around here.

all you "fans" fuss all the time about MS and his driving.....

The fact there was not contact, changes nothing.

All such blocking does, is to discourge passing
and blocking is NOT racing that permits passing........
11th May 2009, 12:52
MrJan

Mark you chuffing plum :p : I have a really strong dislike for Webber, he comes across as a whingy, smarmy b****** and the worse he does, the harder I laugh. However you have to be a complete numpty to argue that the pass was dangerous. Get up some genuine footage of the race (as opposed to one photo which shows nothing conclusive) and people might start to agree with you. However I doubt that a) you will bother (because you are wrong) and b) people will agree anyway (because you are wrong)
11th May 2009, 13:00
EuroTroll

Here's a question. Why on earth is Senna heavily criticized for this, then:

[youtube]yjfwRrvtlNw[/youtube]

Please, tell. I really want to know!
11th May 2009, 13:10
wedge

Because Prost cried like a baby:

"If he's that desperate to win the championship then he can have it"
11th May 2009, 13:12
EuroTroll

Quote:

Originally Posted by wedge

Because Prost cried like a baby:

"If he's that desperate to win the championship then he can have it"

I don't think Prost's crying in 1988 can affect opinions now. And yet, to this day, that incident is cited as a prime example of Senna's unacceptable behaviour, by F1 journalists (like Nigel Roebuck) and forumers alike.

And Senna himself later apologized to Prost for doing that. He never apologized for Suzuka '90, but he apologized for that.
11th May 2009, 13:30
woody2goody

Quote:

Originally Posted by studiose

Yes, of course.

I just hate chopping. You know? Moves done with the attitude of "We're alongside, so I'm gonna veer into you. Feeling lucky today, punk?"

There's no skill in that. No elaborate thought. It's just bullying.

The majority of you obviously think that's ok. I don't. One of them "differences of opinion", I guess.

He wasn't even alongside him when Webber moved over.

Nobody has even mentioned the fact that Alonso had KERS, so he would have blasted past Webber quicker than the Aussie expected.
11th May 2009, 13:33
woody2goody

Quote:

Originally Posted by studiose

I don't think Prost's crying in 1988 can affect opinions now. And yet, to this day, that incident is cited as a prime example of Senna's unacceptable behaviour, by F1 journalists (like Nigel Roebuck) and forumers alike.

And Senna himself later apologized to Prost for doing that. He never apologized for Suzuka '90, but he apologized for that.

Nothing wrong with that move to be honest he tried to squeeze him but not too much to be honest. I don't think Webber tried to squeeze Alonso, because I don't think he even thought he would try it down the right hand side.

IIRC Michael Schumacher's squeeze of Ralf at the (Nurburgring?) was worse. They didn't speak for a few weeks after that I don't think.

The worst one of all was Schumi on Alonso in Britain 2003 (maybe 04 not sure)
11th May 2009, 13:36
Ent

I'm sick of all this stupid argument about blocking and chopping, especially since there was none of either of those things. It was a great overtaking move by Alonso and nothing more.

As words wont convince people, I've had to grab screen images from the video and paste them together...

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1403/passalonso.jpg

The only thing Webber was guilty of was being passed by Alonso in one of the best passes of the season so far.
11th May 2009, 13:39
EuroTroll

(Never mind.)
11th May 2009, 13:44
wedge

Quote:

Originally Posted by studiose

I don't think Prost's crying in 1988 can affect opinions now. And yet, to this day, that incident is cited as a prime example of Senna's unacceptable behaviour, by F1 journalists (like Nigel Roebuck) and forumers alike.

And Senna himself later apologized to Prost for doing that. He never apologized for Suzuka '90, but he apologized for that.

Schumi did the exact same thing to his own brother at the Nurburgring 2003(??) and I had no problems with it whatsoever likewise the infamous Schumacher startline chop I had no problems with.

Some people have certain standards and limits but the likes of Alonso, Gilles, Senna, Mansell, Hamilton, Schumi, JPM, etc, etc are racers and they are willing to push those limits.
11th May 2009, 13:47
EuroTroll

Quote:

Originally Posted by woody2goody

Nobody has even mentioned the fact that Alonso had KERS, so he would have blasted past Webber quicker than the Aussie expected.

Did he? I seem to remember that only McLaren and Ferrari used KERS in Barcelona. And even if that weren't the case, would Webber not have known about it? :erm:

Quote:

Originally Posted by woody2goody

Nothing wrong with that move to be honest he tried to squeeze him but not too much to be honest.

Well, a lot of other people certainly found fault with it. Real experts, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by woody2goody

I don't think Webber tried to squeeze Alonso, because I don't think he even thought he would try it down the right hand side.

Ah. So he veered to the right just to let Alonso by on the left?
11th May 2009, 13:50
Rollo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rollo

Webber moved once to cover the line, Alonso went round him, then Webber came back under him. All of which was totally legal.
If there was a problem, we would have had a protest lodged, but as yet there's been zip, nada, nil and nowt.

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1403/passalonso.jpg
- Box ticked

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... lterations)%2024-03-2009.pdf

Article 16.1
"Incident" means any occurrence or series of occurrences involving one or more drivers, or any action by any driver, which is reported to the stewards by the race director (or noted by the stewards and referred to the race director for investigation) which :
- forced a driver off the track ;

There as yet has been no "Incident" noted, and none reported to the race stewards by the race director - it is safe to assume that there is no incident.
It doesn't look like a duck, walk like a duck or quack like a duck.

IT'S NOT A DUCK
11th May 2009, 13:50
EuroTroll

Quote:

Originally Posted by wedge

Schumi did the exact same thing to his own brother at the Nurburgring 2003(??) and I had no problems with it whatsoever likewise the infamous Schumacher startline chop I had no problems with.

If that is the case, my good fellow, then you just don't have standards!

Let me make this point again: Senna, the hardest of them all, eventually came to the conclusion that what he did at Estoril '88 was wrong.
11th May 2009, 13:53
Ent

Quote:

Originally Posted by studiose

Ah. So he veered to the right just to let Alonso by on the left?

Did you not even look at the picture I posted? Alonso was in his slipstream and he moved to the right to protect the inside line. There was no "veering" at all. Look at how quickly Alonso moved to the right when he jumped out of Webber's slipstream. That was "veering". Webber's move to the right is slow and orderly in comparison.

These protests are now starting to border on trolling.
11th May 2009, 13:58
EuroTroll

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ent

Did you not even look at the picture I posted? Alonso was in his slipstream and he moved to the right to protect the inside line. There was no "veering" at all. Look at how quickly Alonso moved to the right when he jumped out of Webber's slipstream. That was "veering". Webber's move to the right is slow and orderly in comparison.

Do forgive me. English is not my first language, so sometimes I don't use words in quite the right way.

I should have said, in a sarcastic response to woody2goody, "Ah. So he moved to the right just to let Alonso by on the left?"

And if this discussion annoys you, feel free to not participate. ;)
11th May 2009, 14:14
CNR

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ent

I'm sick of all this stupid argument about blocking and chopping, especially since there was none of either of those things. It was a great overtaking move by Alonso and nothing more.

As words wont convince people, I've had to grab screen images from the video and paste them together...

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1403/passalonso.jpg

The only thing Webber was guilty of was being passed by Alonso in one of the best passes of the season so far.

Q: can you cut the pit lane like that before the pit lane bland line would have been nice if some one was coming ot of pit lane ?
Alonso cut the pit lane be for the white line
Japan - Massa crosses over white line and leaves the marked track, driving into pit exit, while passing Webber, no penalty
11th May 2009, 14:18
Gibbsy

I cant believe people are complaining about blocking.

I remember champ car (and probably indy car now) had a no blocking rule and it makes the racing boring as hell. Taking a place comes down to just pressing your i win (push2pass) button and not out breaking yourself. Wheres the fun or excitement in that?

Leave silly no blocking rules to crap yank racing and let the real drivers of formula 1 actually race.
11th May 2009, 14:22
big_sw2000

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blancvino

Forcing him to the grass through pit exit is not aggressive, it's blocking!

Alonso had time to back off, he chose to run on the grass, thats brave.
11th May 2009, 14:24
wedge

Quote:

Originally Posted by studiose

If that is the case, my good fellow, then you just don't have standards!

Let me make this point again: Senna, the hardest of them all, eventually came to the conclusion that what he did at Estoril '88 was wrong.

Did he really apologise for that? That was never Senna's style!

[youtube]ko94oniszuA[/youtube]

I do have standards. I feel what Senna did in Japan 1990 was wrong and so too Schumi at Jerez 1997.
11th May 2009, 14:34
EuroTroll

Quote:

Originally Posted by wedge

Did he really apologise for that? That was never Senna's style!

Yeah, I read it ages ago from an interview with Prost.

And it not being his style is part of my point. I mean, Senna almost always thought he was right, even when noone else did. But Estoril '88 was, I guess, something he couldn't justify to himself, on reflection.

Going for gaps, racing hard - I've no problem with that! Really. Why on earth would I?! I'm a fan too. I just feel that Webber-Alonso at Barca was the same as Senna-Prost at Estoril. Just a bully move. Which I think shouldn't be a part of F1. And I say this as one of the biggest Senna fans.
11th May 2009, 14:43
ShiftingGears

Quote:

Originally Posted by studiose

Here's a question. Why on earth is Senna heavily criticized for this, then:

[youtube]yjfwRrvtlNw[/youtube]

Please, tell. I really want to know!

Because before Senna there weren't drivers who regularly swerved to defend their positions.
11th May 2009, 14:45
EuroTroll

Quote:

Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

Because before Senna there weren't drivers who regularly swerved to defend their positions.

So are you saying that because Webber wasn't the first one to do it, it's ok?
11th May 2009, 14:47
Ent

Quote:

Originally Posted by big_sw2000

Alonso had time to back off, he chose to run on the grass, thats brave.

I think that's the point some people here are missing. It was a brilliant overtaking move by Alonso. He has a history of it. Didn't he overtake someone on the outside of 130R at Suzuka? He's a great driver to watch when he goes for the overtaking in those half gaps most drivers back away from. It also shows the faith the top drivers have in the driver they are overtaking, to see them coming from an unexpected place, as was the case here. Big thumbs up to Alonso.

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