WRC 1.6T or IRC S2000

For a first post this may be a bit brave but why does there have to be one engine type. One of the great things about group B was the oppotunity to use different engines.

Just pulling this out of the air but, use the chassis/transmission of the S2000 concept. Allow N/A engines of a capacity up to 3L, turbo cars up to 2L & if you want to go completly mad supercharged & turbochaged/twin turbo cars up to 1.6L. I know that the engine regs would have to be written very carefully but it would certainly be interesting. BMW might join in with one of their I6 engines, suzuki could use their S1600 engine & strap a couple of turbo's on & mitsubishi/subaru can just develop their evo/sti engines. It means all manufacturer's can use an engine from their own stables & that has to be a plus for marketing.

Is the Ford + Citroen plan to push FIA back and fourth so much that in the end they have to keep todays WRCar ?

I thought they were the ones pushing FIA from S2000 to 1600T for 2011 instead of 2013 - or was it a compromize; you can have 1600T, but then from 2011 ?

I wonder who runs the WRC - it sounds like it's run for the benefit of Ford & Citroen.

It's true the manufacturers are fickle when it comes to things like this but IMO the whole situation of having WRC down to 2 manufacturers with uncertain future rules is down to the FIA.

Going S2000 at least for a few years might not be bad because even if another manufacturer doesn't officially join there would be a lot more competitive cars available to private teams for a much smaller price so in theory more drivers would have a chance to drive and competition would increase.

The delays of the new WRC regulation proved Mosley incompetence and indifference about the rally world.

It’s now obvious that this issue will be decided by the new president to be elected at October and because all 3 candidates, Vatanen, Todt and Boeri, have large rally groundwork, everyone can only expect from them a suitable solution and a truly commitment to the sport.

PS: GPWeek reports Fiesta S2000 homologation at the beginning of 2011, but Wilson’s words indicate that it should be release to Gr. N customers from earlier 2010. Can anyone clarify it?

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Originally Posted by AndyRAC

I wonder who runs the WRC - it sounds like it's run for the benefit of Ford & Citroen.

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why not? if they pull out, you dont have a WRC.

And there lies the problem ^^

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Originally Posted by macksrallye

For a first post this may be a bit brave but why does there have to be one engine type. One of the great things about group B was the oppotunity to use different engines.

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That is possible even at this moment. All WRC engines are 2.0T because without turbo car is not competitive and with turbo modifier (1.7x) even smaller engine's displacement skyrockets. In theory, as it was with Group B rules, car with smaller engine could run with lower minimum weight - counterbalancing the effect of having less power.

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Originally Posted by Rally Power

PS: GPWeek reports Fiesta S2000 homologation at the beginning of 2011, but Wilson’s words indicate that it should be release to Gr. N customers from earlier 2010. Can anyone clarify it?

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Could it be that the WRC would need more development? It's a pitty they use different cars on different levels. Look at IRC how well they do everytime they visit a rally-popular country...

How many 1.6t road car engines are actually in production at the moment? A quick scan through a recent car mag indicates that there are just as many n/a 2lt engines in production so I don't see how manufacturers are 'leaning' towards 1.6t!

The concept of allowing different spec engines in, such as in the Group B days, is a novel idea, but one which I like - it would allow manufacturers the opportunity to be individualistic again! Audi now has a 5cyl turbo in their TT - imagine the sound of that out on the stages again mmmmmmmmmm

You could level the playing field with weight - a 2.5 n/a would way less than a 2.3 turbo, but both would be heavier than an S2000 or 1.6t.

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Originally Posted by Audimadgeoff

How many 1.6t road car engines are actually in production at the moment? A quick scan through a recent car mag indicates that there are just as many n/a 2lt engines in production so I don't see how manufacturers are 'leaning' towards 1.6t!

The concept of allowing different spec engines in, such as in the Group B days, is a novel idea, but one which I like - it would allow manufacturers the opportunity to be individualistic again! Audi now has a 5cyl turbo in their TT - imagine the sound of that out on the stages again mmmmmmmmmm

You could level the playing field with weight - a 2.5 n/a would way less than a 2.3 turbo, but both would be heavier than an S2000 or 1.6t.

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I'd agree, but I'd go further regarding transmissions/weight - 4WD increase the weight, but lose the weight for RWD/FWD. Then organise the season with a fair spread of Gravel, Tarmac, Mixed events so a 2L FWD lightweight flyer can compete over a season against a big heavy FWD car - impossible??
Imagine a lightweight Renault screamer v Ford 4WD Turbo....

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Despite some recent contradictory statements, particularly by managers of teams, for the rules of the WRC from 2011, which as we know are being prepared behind the scenes, a source not identified, allegedly placed well within the sphere of the WRC revealed to autosport.com that the engines will be the same turbo 1.600cc: "It has to stop speculation, the rules must be stable and it was what did the FIA. We must not continue to discuss and 'undermine' the question. Believe in what we say, the engines of the WRC in 2011 are 1.600cc turbo, "he said.

WRC: 1600 cc Turbo engine is in front --

Both the Citroen and the Ford are interested in running with the rules of the current Super 2000 for engines in 2011 to avoid costs of developing a turbo engine 1600, but already know that if necessary, even build a new engine 1.6 turbo for 2011.

Apparently, the Skoda is keen to return to the WRC event were similar to the current regulations for engines, because so little need to change your Skoda Fabia S2000, but for President of the Commission of the FIA rally, Morrie Chandler, the matter is clear: "Nothing I know of Skoda! Of course we want more manufacturers, but we must realize that we look at a major, and only if the marks are no longer seduce the rules are well planned, clear and concise, leading to regulations predictable. This is the case! "said Chandler.

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Original link (in portuguese)...

http://autosport.aeiou.pt/gen.pl?p=s....stories/75258

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Originally Posted by Francis44

Original link (in portuguese)...

http://autosport.aeiou.pt/gen.pl?p=s....stories/75258

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I just don't get what the FIA is thinking. With all the manufacturers that allready have a s2000 car + Ford developing one for 2010 (as revealed in wrc.com) why the he*l do the wan't a 1,6t that nobody has or is willing to produce as yet?

It seems again, that they had an idea and they won't change their mind, no matter if there are very few or no manufacturers in WRC. Bloody idiots of FIA again.

Especially as Skoda had dropped a big hint they would stick with IRC in 2010 and join WRC with the S2000 car in 2011, also Abarth. Maybe FIA dont want a resolution to WRC

All is still as clear as mud now. As I said earlier and is mentioned in the Autosport link

"The last World Motor Sport Council meeting confirmed that the WRC would run with turbocharged 1.6-litre engines from 2011 onwards. Since then, however, there has been talk of 2011 running to straight Super 2000 regulations, with the 1.6 turbo engine coming in from 2012. But AUTOSPORT has learned that this will not be the case.

"This on-going debate about what format of technical regulations we're running to has to stop," a WRC insider told AUTOSPORT. "It's not helping the championship at all right now. We need stability in the regulations and that's what the FIA has given to us, we're not going to have anything undermine that right now. Believe me, World Rally cars, 2011 onwards, will run with 1.6-litre turbocharged engines."

Both current WRC manufacturers Citroen and Ford had been interested in running Super 2000 engines in 2011 to delay the cost of developing and producing a new engine. Both firms insist, however, that they will build the new engine if and when a new manufacturer signs up to 1.6 turbo WRC regulations for 2011"

So, if I'm reading this correctly FIA say 1.6T from 2011 onwards but the manufacturers say 2,000cc N/A from 2011 onwards unless a new manufacturer enters the series? Is that stability? So, the future of the WRC is based on speculation and hope?

Škoda never said they will join WRC again. There is no official statement about that. Mr. Hrabánek only said that in the moment they don't consider WRC intereting enough to join.

Of course that doesn't mean that they won't join. I only wanted to point out that they never said they would.

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Originally Posted by 'Mirek Fric [Cze

]Škoda never said they will join WRC again. There is no official statement about that. Mr. Hrabánek only said that in the moment they don't consider WRC intereting enough to join.

Of course that doesn't mean that they won't join. I only wanted to point out that they never said they would.

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Autosport ran a story last week following NORF that "a high ranking but declined to be named Skoda representative suggested IRC in 2010 and WRC in 2011 if the S2K format was adopted".
I was getting a bit excited after Finland when Ford & Citroen re-affirmed their commitment and NORF signed a 5 year deal, I thought WRC is staring its come back to glory days. Now I dont know if IRC retain their manufactureres maybe thats where the 'drives' will be. I for one will be disappointed with that as I prefer WRC to IRC but 5 manufactureres running professional drivers over pay as you go rich kids will make me change my mind.

This does not look promising to me. At present we have Citroen and Ford commtted to WRC for 2 years, I think partly based on the assumption they could use N/A 2 litre engines in 2011. According to Autosport last week they had a tip off from a high ranking Skoda person who dropped a big hint that Skoda would come back to WRC in 2011 with the Fabia S2000, making 3 manufactureres able to offer works drives, (maybe Abarth would also join, as I think Kimi & Anton's NORF rally performance will have been suject to some post rally meetings in Turin.) At this moment in time - some 16 months away from the start of the 2011 WRC season there is NO manufacturer with a suitable engine. Utter madness, how in these difficult economic times can you persuade the accountants running the manufacturers to commit? To me this strenghtens IRC's position to the detriment of WRC. Ego's & greed are killing our sport.

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Originally Posted by MJW

This does not look promising to me. At present we have Citroen and Ford commtted to WRC for 2 years, I think partly based on the assumption they could use N/A 2 litre engines in 2011.

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No, both confirmed to WRC knowing what the engine rule is, confirmation came after FIA's decision to go to 1.6T 2011.

IMO the engine could be a 1.4T right away. I think there’re more 1.4T engines on the market than 1.6T engines.

About having different weight for different engine displacement is OK but for bigger engines there should be a power restrictor because the bigger engine cars would be superior compared to the smaller displacement engines. For example if a 1.6 NA engine has 200 hp and a weight of 1000 kg, the weight/power ratio is 5kg/hp. A 2L engine would produce 250 hp (2 / 1,6 = 1,25 * 200 = 250). To have equal weight/power ratio the weight of a 2L engine car should be 1250 kg. This is a quite reasonable weight but what if the engine is 3L. Calculated by same formula a 3L engine produce 375 hp and weight, with an equal weight/power ratio, should be 1875 kg which is a lead monster.

I like the idea of different engine displacement but even with an air restrictor an engine with bigger displacement would have higher torque and therefore more power on lower revs (both NA and turbo engines).

Another problem with different weight limits is that a car can’t be made as light as necessary (if the bigger displacement engine cars aren’t lead monsters) because even small cars body shells are quite heavy nowadays because of safety reasons.

I'm also no optimistic about World Rally Championship. Ford and Citroen will have WRC cars (1.6T), all the others will have instead S2000 cars? Some teams will compete in S2000 Cup for S2000, but I think we will see there only small numbers of cars ...
I think that IRC will become even stronger (if Eurosport will go on with the support). Your opinion?

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Originally Posted by modri dirkac

I think that IRC will become even stronger (if Eurosport will go on with the support). Your opinion?

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I dont think so, among drivers it will always be the 3:rd option, after works car or privateer in WRC, atleast here.

That ing nightmare still going on.. With S2000 cars we would have seen entry list of 20 drivers and now they obviously want 1600 cars with two manufacturers. I think major manufacturers should move to IRC to stop this stupidity for the sake of the sport.

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Originally Posted by Finni

That ing nightmare still going on.. With S2000 cars we would have seen entry list of 20 drivers and now they obviously want 1600 cars with two manufacturers. I think major manufacturers should move to IRC to stop this stupidity for the sake of the sport.

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Isn`t it a bit naive to think that "major manufacturers" would like to fight for the Intercontinental Rally Challenge instead of the World Rally Championship?

I find this decision from FIA to be tactical rather than stupid. With a S2000 engine rule the WRC would compete directly with the IRC, as the cars in both series would be identical fast. The World Rally Championship is supposed to be fought out by the best drivers in the fastest cars. With a 1.6Turbo engine rule WRC will maintain its position as the series with the fastest cars, and therefore also attract the best drivers (and the major manufacturers).

I do agree that two manufacturers alone in the championship is a bit weak, but it`s still better than IRC. And who knows, maybe in 2012 or onwards it will be four, five or even more manufacturers contesting the WRC. And the reason for being so optimistic? It`s the World championship we are talking about, not a "Challenge" with dubious status among media, sponsors and spectators.

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Originally Posted by Iskald

Isn`t it a bit naive to think that "major manufacturers" would like to fight for the Intercontinental Rally Challenge instead of the World Rally Championship?

I find this decision from FIA to be tactical rather than stupid. With a S2000 engine rule the WRC would compete directly with the IRC, as the cars in both series would be identical fast. The World Rally Championship is supposed to be fought out by the best drivers in the fastest cars. With a 1.6Turbo engine rule WRC will maintain its position as the series with the fastest cars, and therefore also attract the best drivers (and the major manufacturers).

I do agree that two manufacturers alone in the championship is a bit weak, but it`s still better than IRC. And who knows, maybe in 2012 or onwards it will be four, five or even more manufacturers contesting the WRC. And the reason for being so optimistic? It`s the World championship we are talking about, not a "Challenge" with dubious status among media, sponsors and spectators.

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It could be said that the WRC is just living on it's name at the moment - it has the name, history and the top 3-4 drivers. It has been resting on it's laurels. The longer it only has 2 Manufacturers, the less it becomes - at the moment it is suffering from credibility problems - very few people take it seriously - that cannot go on much longer. Personally, I'd have gone for S2000 for a few years, then bring in S1.6T.

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Originally Posted by Iskald

Isn`t it a bit naive to think that "major manufacturers" would like to fight for the Intercontinental Rally Challenge instead of the World Rally Championship?

I find this decision from FIA to be tactical rather than stupid. With a S2000 engine rule the WRC would compete directly with the IRC, as the cars in both series would be identical fast. The World Rally Championship is supposed to be fought out by the best drivers in the fastest cars. With a 1.6Turbo engine rule WRC will maintain its position as the series with the fastest cars, and therefore also attract the best drivers (and the major manufacturers).

I do agree that two manufacturers alone in the championship is a bit weak, but it`s still better than IRC. And who knows, maybe in 2012 or onwards it will be four, five or even more manufacturers contesting the WRC. And the reason for being so optimistic? It`s the World championship we are talking about, not a "Challenge" with dubious status among media, sponsors and spectators.

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If the FIA hadn't f*cked it all up in the first place, there wouldn't even be an IRC. It is exactly because of the mismanagement of the WRC by the FIA that there was enough interest in the first place to start a break away series. Frankly, and this pains me to say it as a follower since the early 80's, I don't really care if the WRC disappears altogether now, because it has become a laughable parody of its former self. In its current form, it is actually worse than no series at all.

FIA monopoly on using name "championship" doesn't make these series better itself. Good names are fine but still are only names. There should be something more not like in European championship for example...

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Originally Posted by RAS007

If the FIA hadn't f*cked it all up in the first place, there wouldn't even be an IRC.

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Maybe Eurosport loosing their rights to send, F1, MotoGP, has quite much to do with it that there is an irc today, but its ok there is, Eurosport is still loosing huge amounts of money every year, better not forget that.
Agree also with Iskald on his points completely.
Also I belive that its checked with other manufacturers what the interest is before they made the 1600 desition.

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Originally Posted by Tomi

Also I belive that its checked with other manufacturers what the interest is before they made the 1600 desition.

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By the “Jarmo’s corner” six manufacturers agreed that it should be 1.6T.

http://www.nesteoilrallyfinland.fi/s...9/default.html

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Originally Posted by OldF

By the “Jarmo’s corner” six manufacturers agreed that it should be 1.6T.

http://www.nesteoilrallyfinland.fi/s...9/default.html

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Yes true, the "Stakeholder Board" is a good thing else too, less politics, better desitions hopefully.

Let’s hope that those manufacturers also will attend WRC in the near future. Would also be nice to know which these manufactures were.

Maybe the second attempt by FIA to have similar engines for WRC and WTCC gives a better result than the first one (S2000). The S2000 engines in rallying and track racing are not exactly the same and therefore it’s not possible to use the same engine in both rallying and track racing but if the 1.6T engine would be exactly the same in both rallying and track racing then maybe (big maybe) there could be some manufacturer that would attend the both championships.

OK, if so many potential manufacturer has agreed on s1600 then it's not too bad decision.

But I have been wondering some time why they are not doing three cars per manufacturer rule? If there was Petter and Atkinson driving during 2009 the championship would be worthy. In that case we could safely say that there would be four best drovers in the world (Loeb, Hirvonen, Petter and Atkinson).

Thank God they are moving to a turbo engine...

Wrc cars had turbo since.... since i remember.

And the s2000's are not bad but may i say that they are slow as hell... I watched IRC in Madeira few weeks ago and man were they slow...

The top sport has always to have the top car and get more people into the sport, s2000 cars aren't capable of that because they are not that fun to watch!!!!

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Originally Posted by RAS007

If the FIA hadn't f*cked it all up in the first place, there wouldn't even be an IRC. It is exactly because of the mismanagement of the WRC by the FIA that there was enough interest in the first place to start a break away series. Frankly, and this pains me to say it as a follower since the early 80's, I don't really care if the WRC disappears altogether now, because it has become a laughable parody of its former self. In its current form, it is actually worse than no series at all.

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RAS007, I totaly agree with you!

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Originally Posted by RAS007

If the FIA hadn't f*cked it all up in the first place, there wouldn't even be an IRC. It is exactly because of the mismanagement of the WRC by the FIA that there was enough interest in the first place to start a break away series. Frankly, and this pains me to say it as a follower since the early 80's, I don't really care if the WRC disappears altogether now, because it has become a laughable parody of its former self. In its current form, it is actually worse than no series at all.

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Agree about FIA but not necessarily about WRC dying.

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Originally Posted by OldF

By the “Jarmo’s corner” six manufacturers agreed that it should be 1.6T.

http://www.nesteoilrallyfinland.fi/s...9/default.html

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Good news, let's see: Ford, Citroen, Skoda, Proton, Fiat(Abarth) and... Suzuki?

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Originally Posted by AndyRAC

It could be said that the WRC is just living on it's name at the moment - it has the name, history and the top 3-4 drivers. It has been resting on it's laurels. The longer it only has 2 Manufacturers, the less it becomes - at the moment it is suffering from credibility problems - very few people take it seriously - that cannot go on much longer. Personally, I'd have gone for S2000 for a few years, then bring in S1.6T.

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I agree entirely with your post here. :up:
Nevertheless someone who is realistic and sees the truth.

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Originally Posted by 'Mirek Fric [Cze

]FIA monopoly on using name "championship" doesn't make these series better itself. Good names are fine but still are only names. There should be something more not like in European championship for example...

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Didn't the WRC have to have some special dispensation to be called a 'championship' this year anyway as it only has 2 manufacturers? Maybe they got round this with the pretend "teams" such as Munchis and Stobart..

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Originally Posted by RS

Didn't the WRC have to have some special dispensation to be called a 'championship' this year anyway as it only has 2 manufacturers? Maybe they got round this with the pretend "teams" such as Munchis and Stobart..

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Yea they fudged it with the "manufacturer teams" as AFAIK in order to have a FIA Manufacturers Championship there need to be more than 2 manufacturers...

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Originally Posted by Iskald

I do agree that two manufacturers alone in the championship is a bit weak, but it`s still better than IRC.

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Still better with only 2 manufacturers ? And 2/3 drivers allowed to win ? FAIL !

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Originally Posted by Iskald

And who knows, maybe in 2012 or onwards it will be four, five or even more manufacturers contesting the WRC.

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Yes, that's what we used to say also in 2006 ... let's keep on dreaming.

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Originally Posted by Finni

But I have been wondering some time why they are not doing three cars per manufacturer rule? If there was Petter and Atkinson driving during 2009 the championship would be worthy. In that case we could safely say that there would be four best drovers in the world (Loeb, Hirvonen, Petter and Atkinson).

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First time ever that a Finni's post makes not much sense xD "three cars ! having Petter and Atkinson again !", you mean one in Ford and one in Citroen ? Apart that it would be impossible (they would take other paying people - oh wait, Ford has already Al Qassimi in the third official car ! Didn't you know ?)...what would be the difference compared to last poor year ^^ ?

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Originally Posted by Iskald

Isn`t it a bit naive to think that "major manufacturers" would like to fight for the Intercontinental Rally Challenge instead of the World Rally Championship?

I find this decision from FIA to be tactical rather than stupid. With a S2000 engine rule the WRC would compete directly with the IRC, as the cars in both series would be identical fast. The World Rally Championship is supposed to be fought out by the best drivers in the fastest cars. With a 1.6Turbo engine rule WRC will maintain its position as the series with the fastest cars, and therefore also attract the best drivers (and the major manufacturers).

I do agree that two manufacturers alone in the championship is a bit weak, but it`s still better than IRC. And who knows, maybe in 2012 or onwards it will be four, five or even more manufacturers contesting the WRC. And the reason for being so optimistic? It`s the World championship we are talking about, not a "Challenge" with dubious status among media, sponsors and spectators.

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First of all you are way too optimistic about the WRC and the F1A. They dug the hole that started a spinoff series (IRC), so what makes you think they can dig their way out of it by making the same stupid mistakes all over again? If they want to call themselves the “World” Rally Championship they need to be more open to more worldly cars and engine platforms. Another thing you need to take into account is that most all organizations whose names begin with the word “world” are usually corrupt and maybe the WRC isn’t any different.