Rise of the Phoenix?

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Originally Posted by CCWS77

I'm at a loss on motivations of those of you who would hope the new race series dies, don't want to see the most powerful and modern open wheel car in north america run anymore

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It was Bernie who got the Canadian Grand Prix removed from the '09 schedule, not the North American fans.

You are talking about the most powerful and modern open wheel cars that race in North America, right?

Not a matter of hoping something dies, CCWS77. Matter of skepticism based on past history.

And road and street courses are just plain slower than ovals. A few miles an hour here or there on those courses makes little difference, IMO. 50-mile-an-hour hairpins are 50-mile-an-hour hairpins. Maybe your stopwatch tells you 48 or 53. Big deal. I go that fast on my way to work.

And four seconds slower on one of those courses is just about one sip of cold beer.

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Originally Posted by CCWS77

If you want to end the US vs THEM stuff then the first step is to accept facts and not act as propoganda spokesmen. We can start by not making up numbers. Power is more then 4 seconds behind last year not 2-3. The slowest CC's were faster then IRL pole.

FYI Atlantic was around 4.5 second slower then IRL pole at Edmonton. Realistically, the IRL as a series is halfway inbetween the speeds of Atlantic and CCWS, not equal to CC. If you really want to accept that and use rationalizations about how it doesnt matter or that the IRL is oval focused, I guess that is a matter of opinion. but that is kind of weak since this is racing

I'm at a loss on motivations of those of you who would hope the new race series dies, don't want to see the most powerful and modern open wheel car in north america run anymore, argue which cars are faster in racing doesnt matter, and fail simple tasks of measuring who is faster on a stopwatch and claim those who attend a racing event would never be able to tell the difference. Just what kind of racing fans are you?

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You're of course missing the real point, which is that the vast majority of open-wheel fans want 1 series and all the good stuff that comes along with it like full 22-28 car grids, guaranteed 18-20 races per season, big at track attendance, good tv numbers, sponsors that can focus on one series, variety of tracks from ovals to streets, all the best drivers, etc. If all you've got in your bag is that we should have 2 series again because the current one is not as technologically ahead as you'd like, then I think you've got a very weak argument. Even F1 is scaling back technology, and CC was nowhere near F1 so I guess they should have thrown in the towel too. Another 8-10 years of a split series (both spec btw) because one (currently) has an older chassis, would be a sad situation indeed.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

And the IRL is?

Right now there are 4 formula series that have superior cars and technology.

F1
GP2
A1GP
Superleague

Doen't say much about a series when 3 "ladder" series are above the US's top series.

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So in other words all four of the series you mentioned aren't good enough for you, but this "GreenPrix" is? Why does it matter if they race in the U.S. or not? Strictly road/street formula racing is not going to work in the U.S. The IRL will always be superior because Americans like AMERICAN Open Wheel, not the European version. If you like European Open Wheel more, watch one of those four series you think is so much better.

Just some friendly advice. I don't want you to get your hopes up about this GreenPrix because there's no way it survives. (At least if it tries to be bigger than it's vintage racing fate)

You'd think Americans would've learned this by now after TWO bankruptcies by the amigos trying to do the same thing.

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Originally Posted by garyshell

#2. ICS is racing at Surfer's this weekend. Any continuation of or demise of that is the sole responsibility of ICS. CCWS has nothing to do with that.

Gary

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Well, yes and no. You're lucky the IRL agreed to take it on this year to get the "merger" done. If it doesn't fit in the IRL's schedule from here on out it can hardly be called the IRL's fault. They agree to run a race there this year, and to negotiate future contracts. That's it.

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Originally Posted by indycool

Not a matter of hoping something dies, CCWS77. Matter of skepticism based on past history.

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Skepticism is fine. I have no idea what will happen either. There is more then skepticism here. There is the vibe that anything that might possibly compete with the IRL is bad.

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Originally Posted by nickfalzone

You're of course missing the real point, which is that the vast majority of open-wheel fans want 1 series and all the good stuff that comes along with it

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An established buisness needs to continually defend itself against competitors. That is totally different then having one organization split apart into a damaging civil war. If you (or Tony George!) are basing the success of the IRL on the idea that there is a monopoly of only 1 series then clearly you have failed to yet escape from the damaging mindset of the split. Scorched earth for anything that is not under the control of Indianapolis!

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Originally Posted by -Helix-

If you like European Open Wheel more, watch one of those four series you think is so much better.

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Wow you guys are infuriating. So the same crowd that wants to maximize the number of races they get to see in the US and cares little for keeping Surfers has no problem telling others to go take a hike all over the globe. hypocrytes

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Originally Posted by CCWS77

Skepticism is fine. I have no idea what will happen either. There is more then skepticism here. There is the vibe that anything that might possibly compete with the IRL is bad.

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It's pretty damn obvious.

Look at how successful the last 13 years of American open wheel racing was when they had two series competing for the same fans.

Not very successful.

CCWS77:

1. What ug said.
2. Where do you want control of it? Ansan?
3. IRL's made it clear that its focus is North America, particularly the U.S., as the heir to the 90-odd-year-old U.S. National Driving Championship. Unlike its bankrupt predecessors, it has left no hint that it wants to globetrot.

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Originally Posted by CCWS77

If you want to end the US vs THEM stuff then the first step is to accept facts and not act as propoganda spokesmen. We can start by not making up numbers. Power is more then 4 seconds behind last year not 2-3. The slowest CC's were faster then IRL pole.

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First, since I was the one calling for an end to the us vs. them arguments I assume this was directed to me. My suggestion was directed at one of the ICS stalwarts, and I made no mention of any numbers. So, I fail to see how I am acting as a "propaganda spokesman". You seem to be mixing some comments from different folks in your admonishment to me.

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Originally Posted by CCWS77

FYI Atlantic was around 4.5 second slower then IRL pole at Edmonton. Realistically, the IRL as a series is halfway inbetween the speeds of Atlantic and CCWS, not equal to CC. If you really want to accept that and use rationalizations about how it doesnt matter or that the IRL is oval focused, I guess that is a matter of opinion. but that is kind of weak since this is racing

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Yes it is racing, but not drag racing mind you, where top speed is the all important number. To me, and I dare say a lot of other folks, the relative speed between the participants in a given race or series is a hell of a lot more important than the relative speed between two different series. I do not give a damn if the IRL car is four seconds slower than a Champ Cat, just like I didn't give a damn if an Champ Car was 4 seconds slower than an F1 car back when I never watched the IRL.

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Originally Posted by CCWS77

I'm at a loss on motivations of those of you who would hope the new race series dies, don't want to see the most powerful and modern open wheel car in north america run anymore, argue which cars are faster in racing doesnt matter, and fail simple tasks of measuring who is faster on a stopwatch and claim those who attend a racing event would never be able to tell the difference. Just what kind of racing fans are you?

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Well then let me explain some of those motivations. No one, I repeat no one, is calling for this new series to die. What IS being called for is a hope that when the details of this series emerge, it is clear that it is not trying to shoe horn its way into the same marketing space as the ICS. You DO realize that racing is a business don't you? And that the last twelve years have throughly disproved the theory that good old "King George" had that two series could fill that single marketing space. I am not happy that he was the eventual winner given this flawed theory. But I am sure as hell not going to be happy with someone else trying to prove the theory all over again.

As for your "simple task of measuring who is faster on a stopwatch", I challenge YOU to measure who is faster without your damn stop watch. THAT is what is important. How many folks do you see at the track or sitting at home on their couch timing the cars with a stop watch? You do it. I do it. But how many others do it? And if you can't make that measurement without your stopwatch, then guess what, it doesn't matter. Because only a very very minuscule number of folks track side will ever notice the difference. And to suggest in some way that this makes those fans less of a race fan, puts the question in your lap, what kind of race fan are YOU??? The kind of fans WE are are ones who notice the difference in speed between the cars in front of us on the track on that day. Because that is all that REALLY matters to someone who wants to see folks race against each other on the track. WE want to see Dario and Graham duke it on going into a corner. We want to see Helio and Tony dice for position as they play a high stakes game of chicken seeing who can brake latter at the end of a high speed straight. The only "fans" who worry about the speed between Champ Car and F1 are stat geeks. Just what kind of fans are those?

Gary

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Originally Posted by CCWS77

Skepticism is fine. I have no idea what will happen either. There is more then skepticism here. There is the vibe that anything that might possibly compete with the IRL is bad.



An established buisness needs to continually defend itself against competitors. That is totally different then having one organization split apart into a damaging civil war. If you (or Tony George!) are basing the success of the IRL on the idea that there is a monopoly of only 1 series then clearly you have failed to yet escape from the damaging mindset of the split. Scorched earth for anything that is not under the control of Indianapolis!

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Another series that wants to try to compete with the IRL is bad. Let's be clear about that. The past twelve years proved, definitively that two series cannot survive in a single market space. There are simply not enough sponsors, venues, drivers, TV networks or fans.

Let's also get some historical facts straight. The IRL was not born of one organization splitting apart, as your statement above implies. It was born of a brand new series (the IRL), as I said before, "shoe horning" its way into the existing market space of another series (Champ Car). Again, I am not happy that the eventual winner of that war was the series that barged in. But it did win. And you seem to suggest that we should welcome with open arms another battle for the market. That is asking us to ignore what transpired over the past twelve years. Some of us learned from that mistake. Clearly other have not.

Gary

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Originally Posted by pits4me

Until you put the demise of Atlantics AND Surfers under your beloved magnifying glass IC.

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Originally Posted by downtowndeco

Again, you have CCWS management to blame for that, not TG.

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Originally Posted by garyshell

#2. ICS is racing at Surfer's this weekend. Any continuation of or demise of that is the sole responsibility of ICS. CCWS has nothing to do with that.

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Originally Posted by downtowndeco

Well, yes and no. You're lucky the IRL agreed to take it on this year to get the "merger" done. If it doesn't fit in the IRL's schedule from here on out it can hardly be called the IRL's fault. They agree to run a race there this year, and to negotiate future contracts. That's it.

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I never said it was the IRL's fault. I was correcting your saying that it was CCWS fault. If it doen't fit in the schedule any more that it that is the fault of the ICS and the Surfer's Paradise principles. That has, zero, zilch, nada, to do with the CCWS management.

Gary

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Originally Posted by CCWS77

Wow you guys are infuriating. So the same crowd that wants to maximize the number of races they get to see in the US and cares little for keeping Surfers has no problem telling others to go take a hike all over the globe. hypocrytes

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Uh. WE'RE the hypocrites? You just kinda proved that you CCers are. You want the IRL to race halfway around the world and focus on international markets yet you can't support a series that isn't American based?

You're the ones that love European style racing, so doesn't it seem logical to "take a hike"? Us AOWR fans already have a series with a formula that has proven to be the preferred style of Americans.

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Originally Posted by garyshell

Another series that wants to try to compete with the IRL is bad. Let's be clear about that. The past twelve years proved, definitively that two series cannot survive in a single market space.
Gary

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maybe

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Originally Posted by -Helix-

Uh. WE'RE the hypocrites? You just kinda proved that you CCers are. You want the IRL to race halfway around the world and focus on international markets yet you can't support a series that isn't American based?

You're the ones that love European style racing, so doesn't it seem logical to "take a hike"? Us AOWR fans already have a series with a formula that has proven to be the preferred style of Americans.

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Your insistence that certain types of Indycentric racing are "American" and other types are "European" and should be banished is part of the basis of the whole damn 12 year war. By excising all elements of the European style from the IRL (such as surfers), you make it MORE LIKELY that another series will be invented to fill that gap, not less. Futhermore you seemed to have missed the fact that NASCAR exists. THAT is the essence of the fundamentally American style racing to which you prefer - NOT INDYCAR. I question the sanity of the idea of duplicating that but just with a different style of car.

It seems to me the split continues until this point is resolved, even among everyone who is in ICS fan. You may be arguing with me, but clearly there is vast difference of opinion even between Garyshell and Helix there. Even ICS seems undecided on the point since at times they concede to morphing into CART II and other times they retreat to thier midwest oval centric ideas like in this case viewing Surfers as expendable and not part of the core of what ICS is. Just becase there is 1 series does not mean these problems are solved. The insistence they should be swept under the rug and mean nothing is truely maddening. Imagine the split never existed and all those years are erased. I would still be arguing the exact same thing, that ICS should be distancing itself from the NASCAR style and should better fill that "european" style in north America or else you risk those european series crossing the sea and stealing your market share anyway when you leave an obvious gap like that.

Those European series have their own schedules where they are. Even Formula One couldn't sustain itself here, drawing less than half the crowd of the Indianapolis 500 and Brickyard 400 at the same facility.

Your explanation of what the IRL seems to be doing seems critical of it, as if you don't like it, but accurate and I don't think the IRL has ever said any differently: It's an ovalcentric series which has added some road and street courses centered around the Indianapolis 500 and run primarily in North America. When all those European series start running ovals, let us know.

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Originally Posted by CCWS77

maybe


Your insistence that certain types of Indycentric racing are "American" and other types are "European" and should be banished is part of the basis of the whole damn 12 year war. By excising all elements of the European style from the IRL (such as surfers), you make it MORE LIKELY that another series will be invented to fill that gap, not less. Futhermore you seemed to have missed the fact that NASCAR exists. THAT is the essence of the fundamentally American style racing to which you prefer - NOT INDYCAR. I question the sanity of the idea of duplicating that but just with a different style of car.

It seems to me the split continues until this point is resolved, even among everyone who is in ICS fan. You may be arguing with me, but clearly there is vast difference of opinion even between Garyshell and Helix there. Even ICS seems undecided on the point since at times they concede to morphing into CART II and other times they retreat to thier midwest oval centric ideas like in this case viewing Surfers as expendable and not part of the core of what ICS is. Just becase there is 1 series does not mean these problems are solved. The insistence they should be swept under the rug and mean nothing is truely maddening. Imagine the split never existed and all those years are erased. I would still be arguing the exact same thing, that ICS should be distancing itself from the NASCAR style and should better fill that "european" style in north America or else you risk those european series crossing the sea and stealing your market share anyway when you leave an obvious gap like that.

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Maybe? You must be kidding... maybe??? So you think the solution to the problems, and yes there are problems, is to start another series? Oh, yes that is going to fix things, just like it did when the idiot grandson had the supreme vision and started a new series back in 1996.

Gary

Nobody would be talking about starting another series if the IRL was putting out a quality product.

You still see this down in the south once in a while. People who still aren't over the south losing the civil war. I'm telling you. 10 years from now some will still be clinging to hope that Gerry Forsythe will dust off the DP1's & start a new street racing series.

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Originally Posted by indycool

Even Formula One couldn't sustain itself here, drawing less than half the crowd of the Indianapolis 500 and Brickyard 400 at the same facility.

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Because fans on both coasts of the US would rather have visited Montreal than Indianapolis to see a North American F1 race, and they did.

Let F1 run Long Beach in 2010 and then compare their attendence numbers with the ICS 2009. (Oh wait, then you would spin that as evidence that the ICS shouldn't be on street courses. LOL)

And if you are going to use Indianaplois as your gauge for the popularity of American style racing, then NASCAR draws a larger crowd than the Indy 500. So that must prove that the ICS should running fenders and carburators!

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Originally Posted by downtowndeco

You still see this down in the south once in a while. People who still aren't over the south losing the civil war. I'm telling you. 10 years from now some will still be clinging to hope that Gerry Forsythe will dust off the DP1's & start a new street racing series.

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And don't pretend that your missives here aren't the equivalent of the Yankees gloating over the fact that they forced the Confederates to surrender.

Gary

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Originally Posted by Rex Monaco

And if you are going to use Indianaplois as your gauge for the popularity of American style racing, then NASCAR draws a larger crowd than the Indy 500. So that must prove that the ICS should running fenders and carburators!

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Are you SURE about that? As I recall, the indfield is not open for the NASCAR crowd, and if so I really doubt if they draw higher numbers.

Gary

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Originally Posted by downtowndeco

You still see this down in the south once in a while. People who still aren't over the south losing the civil war.

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Except in this case, it was the confederate master that beat the union. And although these teams are now his slaves, someday those teams will rise up and fight that master. It's only a matter of time. When the series is healthy and making money, they will want more money and more control.

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Originally Posted by garyshell

Are you SURE about that? As I recall, the indfield is not open for the NASCAR crowd, and if so I really doubt if they draw higher numbers.

Gary

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You might be right, I was thinking TV ratings.

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Originally Posted by downtowndeco

You still see this down in the south once in a while. People who still aren't over the south losing the civil war. I'm telling you. 10 years from now some will still be clinging to hope that Gerry Forsythe will dust off the DP1's & start a new street racing series.

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and some will be thinking someone is out to get Tony George and the IRL.

There are extremist fans who will never let go of whatever side of the "split" they were on - but most of us understand it is over and it is time to move on. I understand where you are coming from but I think you are lumping far too many people into the extremist category....

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Originally Posted by Chris R

and some will be thinking someone is out to get Tony George and the IRL.

There are extremist fans who will never let go of whatever side of the "split" they were on - but most of us understand it is over and it is time to move on. I understand where you are coming from but I think you are lumping far too many people into the extremist category....

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And downtowndeco fails to recognize that his replies here consistently put him in the other extremist category.

Gary

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Originally Posted by garyshell

And don't pretend that your missives here aren't the equivalent of the Yankees gloating over the fact that they forced the Confederates to surrender.

Gary

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GMA break. Some of these guys come in here trying to do nothing other than poking the snake with a stick & we're not suppossed to respond or comment?

You've most certainly have not looked the other way or let things go when you've disagreed with anything I've posted. Every time I've got to hear about it. You should follow your own advise and allow others to have an opinion. Oh, I forgot. As long as it's "TG is an idiot grandson" it's OK, right?

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Originally Posted by downtowndeco

GMA break. Some of these guys come in here trying to do nothing other than poking the snake with a stick & we're not suppossed to respond or comment?

You've most certainly have not looked the other way or let things go when you've disagreed with anything I've posted. Every time I've got to hear about it. You should follow your own advise and allow others to have an opinion. Of that's right, as long as it's "TG is an idiot grandson" it's OK, right?

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Did I say you shouldn't respond? No. I said don't pretend that your attitude here is absolutely no different from those you denigrate. You are just on the opposite side. You do your fair share (or I dare say more than fair share) of prodding that snake at every opportunity.

Yes I called him an idiot grandson, I thought that in 1996 and think so today. But, if you look at my replies in threads here you will see I am just as critical of the CCF crowd.

Gary

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Originally Posted by indycool

Even Formula One couldn't sustain itself here, drawing less than half the crowd of the Indianapolis 500 and Brickyard 400 at the same facility.

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Garyshell states that the NASCAR race closes the infield. How did the F1 seating differ from the Indy 500 configuration?

I remember that F1 was sold out the first couple of years at Indy and I beleive that NASCAR still sells out too. When is the last time the Indy 500 officially (or truthfully) sold out?

Rex, the NASCAR race at Indianapolis has no GA tickets in the infield. The Indianapolis 500 does. The Indianapolis 500 has ALWAYS had a higher attendance than the Brickyard 400 and that is ONE of the reasons. The place has about 260-270,000 seats for those races.

For the F1 race, MOST of the seats were used, but T3 oval and well into the north short chute were blocked off because it was nowhere near the course and didn't apply. Temporary seating was built at the esses in the infield. The race drew an estimated 100-125,000 after a bigger gush (150,000 or so) the first year. Ticket prices were pretty much the same as the other two races, with some seats better for the road course and some not as good and prices showing those. At the attendance estimated, the Speedway was STILL among the top three in F1 attendance every year.

As is the case with many Sprint Cup races these days with the big TV contract, a look at the Brickyard 400 crowd the past few years would NOT indicate a sellout for some time.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Nobody would be talking about starting another series if the IRL was putting out a quality product.

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QFT! :up:

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Originally Posted by indycool

I didn't like to see the Trans Am go away and I would not like to see the Atlantics diminished or go away. Surfers is thousands of miles away on a channel I don't get, they apparently want to focus on this as a North American series and I have no idea of the financial feasibility of the deal.

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C'mon, Trans-AM was an entirely different situation. Like Roger Elliott's North American Super Touring Car Championship in 95-96, it eventually succommed to NASCAR'S wish to dominate stock car/saloon car racing in the US. Leveraging corporate sponsors and factory participation.

Atlantic's on the other hand has survived as the premier development racing series in North America. It now sits as the top rung of the Mazda ladder.

The Surfers TV coverage this weekend just demonstrates the lack of respect ICS gives it as an international motorsport event. These types of events are critical to the global branding of IndyCar and the sponsors it supposedly relies on for survival revenue. Even the current champion is from Australasia. Go figure.....

I don't think Surfers is nearly as important to a series as you think it is. It couldn't save CART or CCWS, nor could races in Mexico, Holland, Germany or Canada.

The IRL is a US based series and will best served to focus on races here.

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Originally Posted by pits4me

C'mon, Trans-AM was an entirely different situation. Like Roger Elliott's North American Super Touring Car Championship in 95-96, it eventually succommed to NASCAR'S wish to dominate stock car/saloon car racing in the US. Leveraging corporate sponsors and factory participation.

Atlantic's on the other hand has survived as the premier development racing series in North America. It now sits as the top rung of the Mazda ladder.

The Surfers TV coverage this weekend just demonstrates the lack of respect ICS gives it as an international motorsport event. These types of events are critical to the global branding of IndyCar and the sponsors it supposedly relies on for survival revenue. Even the current champion is from Australasia. Go figure.....

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Originally Posted by pits4me

...Like Roger Elliott's North American Super Touring Car Championship in 95-96...

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The best racing I ever saw anywhere. Period. :(

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Originally Posted by Starter

You mean all 8 cars? Oops, forgot, I think they started 12 once.

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Yes, and I used to rip on CCWS about 16 cars, but NATCC was flat-out racing all the way! Smoke coming off the tires in the braking zones. Even though they were FWD, they would move around in the turns because they were cornering at the limit, trying to maintain momentum.

Great stuff!

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Originally Posted by indycool

At the attendance estimated, the Speedway was STILL among the top three in F1 attendance every year.

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And yet you used it's attendence numbers as your example of how Americans don't except 'European style' racing.

American aren't what filled the grandstands. Much of the crowd were international visitors.

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Originally Posted by Rex Monaco

And yet you used it's attendence numbers as your example of how Americans don't except 'European style' racing.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Nobody would be talking about starting another series if the IRL was putting out a quality product.

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Damn right!

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Originally Posted by downtowndeco

American aren't what filled the grandstands. Much of the crowd were international visitors.

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Well since the Indianapolis tourism dollars were higher for F1 than either the Indy 500 or BY400, we know they weren't Hoosiers.

But I'm not certain they were all rich foriegners flocking to the midwest to partake of Americana.

But if large percentage of them were Canadian, then you got your justification for holding Indycar events in Canada.

I never said they were all from outside the U.S. But a lot of them were.

Whether they were Canadian or not I don't know.

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Originally Posted by Rex Monaco

Well since the Indianapolis tourism dollars were higher for F1 than either the Indy 500 or BY400, we know they weren't Hoosiers.

But I'm not certain they were all rich foriegners flocking to the midwest to partake of Americana.

But if large percentage of them were Canadian, then you got your justification for holding Indycar events in Canada.

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Originally Posted by downtowndeco

American aren't what filled the grandstands. Much of the crowd were international visitors.

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Also, some American CART/CC fan did NOT attend because they chose not to give TG any money. I would have been to all the GP's but for that reason.

I attended all but the last Formula One races at Indy (and I live on the east coast). There were a lot of international visitors at those races. There were also a lot of US citizens like myself there. That is, I had no problem traveling all the way to IMS to see F1, but I wouldn't bother to cross 16th Street to see an Indy 500, and I'm not particularly interested in traveling all the way to Indy for the B/Y 400 when there are better NASCAR races much closer to home.

And I am totally ambivalent about Tony George. He's never done anything to me.