The others you have a point on, but kimi was the one responsible for the bad pitstop at Valencia.Quote:
Originally Posted by jens
But if we go through like this, we will find every team has made similar mistakes.
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The others you have a point on, but kimi was the one responsible for the bad pitstop at Valencia.Quote:
Originally Posted by jens
But if we go through like this, we will find every team has made similar mistakes.
The answer to his question was obvious that's why I didn't bother to answer it, and thanks for answering it, looks like there are more than 10 of them blunders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
PS: you forgot to mention their Monaco mistakes, didn't put Kimi's wheels on the car before the 3 ' mark, and than fueled Massa for 60% of the race in changing conditions! ;)
Looking to the list I'm wondering if we are talking about Ferrari or Forti?! :rolleyes:
dude get a woman !!! :eek: :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
Yeah, though I think we should remember Kimi moved up through the pit stops ahead of him. I don't recall him doing any actual on track overtaking.
If we look at Kubica, who was directly infront of Massa, he also made hardly any progress.
So whilst I was disappointed to not see Massa progress after his unfortunate pit stop, its slightly unrealistic to have expected him to progress on a track where overtaking was near impossible unless you were 4s a lap quicker (if we use Trulli as a benchmark).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
Thank you for naming these, as Ioan obviously was unable.
Though yes these can be classed as errors, but these are not really fundamental errors I assumed Ioan was refering to.
For example Silverstone, wrong tyre call, but at the time, forecast was for heavy rain in 5 minutes, so it was the right call. Its what we call bad luck, not much they could really have done. Same with any strategy messed up by SC issues, its purely luck of the draw.
So sure, we can pin them down for 10 mistakes this year, if we going to include tactical errors and mechanical failures.
But Ioan, I'd like to point out, if these are the mistakes your refering to, they had more than 10 in 5 seasons when Todt was in charge.
And you say you are not picking on me?! :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by PolePosition_1
BTW I even completed Garry's list of blunders, you just need to put your glasses on. :rotflmao:
No, I'm not picking on you, I saying you were unable to give me a list, I asked you twice, and you ignored it. So just pointing out a fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Though I don't really want to go off track into personal arguments, I'd rather keep on topic of F1. However, just to confirm, the type of mistakes you are refering to for this season. Are you standing by your statement that they only made on average 2 per season for 5 years when Todt was in charge, of similar mistakes to ones Garry and you have labelled?
Maybe I had a reason to ignore it, maybe it was because the list was to obvious?Quote:
Originally Posted by PolePosition_1
Maybe because I had other things to do than go through the full season and put together a way to long list of Ferrari blunders?
You could have said thans to Garry for providing it because I didn't, but no you had to go the high road:
Well, I call that picking on someone, and I've had enough of you doing it while you keep denying it.Quote:
Originally Posted by PolePosition_1
As I had enough of you saying that you would like Massa to win he WDC rather than Hamy, all this while you keep attacking Massa and praising Hamy.
Do you love contradicting yourself so much?
Well, it obviously wasn't so obvious, as I had to ask you. I didn't realise you were refering to minor incidents as appears to be the case, in which case, your claim that Ferrari only made 10 similar errors in 5 years is totally wrong. They had more than 10 mechanical failures striaght off, if we're classifying strategy errors, pit errors etc, there is absolutely no chance they had 10 in 5 seasons as you have claimed.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
And I don't understand about me not thanking Garry, I said "Thank you for naming these". I not sure what else I can do if thats not saying thank you.
I don't particularly recall me attacking Massa. I've criticised him when I believe him to be in the wrong, in same way I've criticised Lewis (Canada this year, his arrogance etc).
You can support a driver and be objective about it. My favourite driver is Alonso, but I'll openly admit that his actions last year with blackmailing Ron Dennis, I disapproved of it. I'm not going to agree with it just because I support him.
No, I made it out as less than 10 blunders from Ferrari. It is not Ferraris problem if their supplier messes up, although of course, this will affect them.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
In any case, there have been less blunders from Ferrari this year than there were in 2005 and 2006, with the "dream-team" still together.
:laugh: Excellent joke! :rotflmao:Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
Really? Who the heck chose the suppliers? Shock horror, the Ferrari management did it! :rolleyes:
PS: You have omitted a few of them blunders in your previous list, as mentioned by Jens and myself. So we are more like around 15 blunders for this season and it isn't yet over.
PPS: I'm a Ferrari fan, one that defends them when needed, but I reserve the right to criticize them when the management is performing like this season.
I will never praise mediocrity!
Give us a list of their strategic and reliability blunders from 2000 to 2004!Quote:
Originally Posted by PolePosition_1
Maybe there are more than 10 maybe not, but at least we will see how little errors there were compared to this season.
And if you chose not to do it I'll understand it, and won't start attacking you. :p :
Pole, you're wasting your time will just end up with high blood pressure as ioan chooses not to accept alternative views.Quote:
Originally Posted by PolePosition_1
Threads started with titles like "Screw Ferrari" are destined to lack objectivity.
It is obvious that Ferrari are not having the best year to date but teams always have issues. It's part of racing.
Hell, look at the mistakes and points lost by McLaren this year for example. I bet they add up to more than Ferrari's but it's not worth trying to discuss it reasonably.
If I am not mistaken, then every team in F1 uses that supplier company. Even the best suppliers can have problems, it is not unheard of in world.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
I have the number of blunders at around 8-9. Not 15.Quote:
PS: You have omitted a few of them blunders in your previous list, as mentioned by Jens and myself. So we are more like around 15 blunders for this season and it isn't yet over.
I repeat, there were more blunders in 2005 and in 2006. Hell, even in 2002 and 2004 there were several blunders, it is impossible to have a perfect year in F1.
The management is doing fine. Ferrari has the fastest car.Quote:
PPS: I'm a Ferrari fan, one that defends them when needed, but I reserve the right to criticize them when the management is performing like this season.
I will never praise mediocrity!
If Ferrari is medicore, what do you call other teams? ?
Mate my memory isn't as good as that I'm afraid. But I'd bet decent money they had more than 10 errors during that period.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Your refering to strategic plans going wrong etc, I'm sorry, but its a sure thing that things did not go to perfect plan in that time.
We're getting slightly too involved into specific examples.
All I'm trying to do is make you aware of the situation. Ferrari didn't go to perfect plan back then, and isn't these days either. Because it rarely does for most teams.
If we're going to look at the type of errors your mentioning for this season. Fact is, your wrong, they did more than 10 errors in 5 seasons. If you wish to believe that, thats fair enough, but you'll be arguing a fact, its not even subjective.
Therefore, your basing your opinion on the current Ferrari management on a false belief. Surely anyone would want to base their opinions on the truth.
Me personally, I like the new style Ferrari team, it has a much more sporting approach, which is closer to my principles. Whilst its undeniable they haven't got the advantage as before, I think thats primarily to do with the regulations not moving at all for quite a long period, so common sense would suggest the other teams are going to catch up, the top teams have basically maximised the speed of the cars within the current regulations. Fact that Force India, on a budget 1/10th of Ferraris, can create a car from scratch at only 2s a lap slower highlights this.
So its only natural Ferrari's dominance wouldn't continue to that extent forever. Considering the fundamental changes with the team, I think they have managed amazingly well. We just have to look at 2005 where they got it all wrong, with the dream team in place, and their performances last year and this year are strong in comparison.
Should be noted Ferrari didn't win a tittle in 2005-06, only last year, with the new team in place. I think that says plenty.
I told you you I won't hold you responsible for not doing it, unlike you did.Quote:
Originally Posted by PolePosition_1
However if you don't want to do it, than don't tell me I'm wrong, cause now I'll ask you to prove it. So behave yourself and start counting the blunders Ferrari did between 2000 and 2004 or admit that you are picking on me! :mad:
As for bringing up 2005 and 2006 I don't give 2 pennies on that, I asked you about 2000 to 2004 (exactly 5 seasons, as I mentioned before). :rolleyes:
No Ioan, I'm afraid I'm not going to go through every single race been 2000 and 2004 and list you a number of errors.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
If you genuinely believe that Ferrari only made 10 strategic, mechanical, pit stop, any kind of error between 2000 - 2004. I'm not going to try prove you wrong, because I know its not true, and I know you are factually wrong. If you wish to believe that thats fair enough. Base your opinions on invalid facts :)
As for not caring about 2005-06, you should take them into consideration. As your claiming the new management is bringing the team down, but your deciding not to give two pennies about the last years of the dream team, where they failed to win anything.
Its pretty worrying to an extent how some people are basing their opinions on selectively selecting the facts to reinforce them.
The why pick on me when I didn't do the same when you asked me?Quote:
Originally Posted by PolePosition_1
Also you can't claim that I'm wrong either without proving squat.
So put up or shut up. :rolleyes:
Ferrari's strategical mistakes in 2000-2004?
I'm trying to recall them now...
2000? Well, I remember Schumacher's slow puncture in Spain, but this isn't a strategical blunder obviously...
2001? Umm... Barrichello losing a pit-duel against Coulthard in Austria is the worst strategical loss I can remember. :D
2002? Barrichello had lots of car failures, but any costly strategical miscalculations?
Three-stop strategy for MS in Oz'03 wasn't the right decision plus he came in to change inters too late plus inters itself for the start of the race weren't the best choice.
Brazil '03 - Barrichello ran out of fuel.
Italy '04 - inters for Barrichello was a doubtful decision and he changed them to grooved ones at least a lap too late.
There may have been more, because brain isn't a computer.
Mediocrity ? :s Your Team is 1 point behind in Constructors Title Champ, and 7 points behind in the Driver Title Champ with 3 races left and plenty of chances to win both Titles and you call that mediocrity ? :sQuote:
Originally Posted by ioan
You mind to tell me how long you have been a Ferrari fan, and how you rate the management of Ferrari in those 21 long years without a single win ?
Sorry ioan but a truly tifoso acts a bit different than they way you do ;)
btw can you post for me these 10 mistakes made by the menagement so far this year....please :)
I've been a fan of Ferrari since 1990 that's 19 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by pino
If being a tifoso means praising them when they blunder than I'm not a tifoso.
As I said above, I can not praise mediocrity.
I'll post the mistakes at latest tonight.
Ferrari is not mediocre, they are a top team. They have their weaknesses and problems, but regardless of this they are still fighting for the titles. Ioan, would you be happier if Ferrari had the best strategy in every race, but lied 4th in the WCC?
If one day Ferrari struggles so badly that they can achieve only minor points on merit, then you will start missing current days, when they "may not have been perfect, but at least managed to win occasionally".
1.They have excellent drivers, the best one I would say.Quote:
Originally Posted by jens
2.They have a superb car, maybe the best out there, so kudos to their engineers.
This is why they are in contention for the titles.
3.They also have a a mediocre race management team.
This is why they are 2nd in both championships while having the best drivers and the best car.
BMW are 3rd and are doing an excellent job.
Renault are 4th and are doing the best job possible given the circumstances.
STR are 6th and are clearly doing an excellent job too!
You don't see them throw race away with stupid strategy or stupid decisions, while they are pushing hard to catch up with the front runners.
Ferrari are now 2nd and doing a very amateurish job in the pits and on the pitwall.
I criticized them every time when they did things wrong, since the start of the season. And every time you came and said it's OK because they are still on top.
Now they aren't on top anymore after losing a 20+ points advantage!
You say it's OK cause they are still in the hunt for the title.
I'm curious what will you say after they lose both titles because of their poor management. :rolleyes:
Here's a list with what I saw like mistakes made by the Ferrari team this season:
1. Australian GP: reliability problem for Kimi in Quali
2. Australian GP: reliability problem for both drivers during the race
3. Australian GP: didn't pit Kimi during the SC period but a few laps after, major race management mistake.
4. Monaco GP: Kimi's tires not fitted 3' before the race start = drive through penalty, major race management mistake
5. Monaco GP: Switch Felipe to a one stop strategy with 40 laps to go with changeable weather conditions, major race management mistake.
6. Canadian GP: refuelling problem for Massa
7. British GP: pit stop problem during qualy for Felipe, as a result starts 9th
8. British GP: keep drivers on worn intermediates, major race management mistake
9. Valencia: Kimi's engine brakes (they knew this will happen cause it was using the same faulty part that was used in Massa's broken engine from Hungary still they kept the same engine)
10. Singapore GP: we all saw what happened a few days ago.
I'm pretty sure there were a few other ones that I'm missing at this moment.
Be cool that’s racing - they will come back in next race - things happen - my tip still is that both tittles go to Ferrari. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Because theres a difference in naming events from the last 6 month, and naming specific events from 8 years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
If you honestly believe Ferrari only had 10 errors throughout 2000-04 (thats errors such as mechanical, pit stop, strategic etc) - then fair enough. I'll take that into account when reading your posts in future. I'll take into account you live in a world where you have a selective memory regarding facts to back up your own opinion.
Personal attacks, personal attacks, personal attacks, that's all I get from you. And than you say you're not picking on me. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by PolePosition_1
Didn't you know that :D ioan is first a Ferrari/Schumi fan and then Ferrari/Massa fan and in case that Kimi win also Ferrari/Kimi fan - everything in Formula One is rotating around that.. therefore ioan has sometimes difficult remember Schumi’s mistakes and sometimes Schumi doesn't even "exist" before he game to Ferrari even if knows that Schumi game to Formula One all ready 1991 and won the WDC tittles all ready 1994 and 1995 with Benetton … and .. that it went actually 4 years at Ferrari before he won next time year 2000 - 9 ears after he started his F1 carrier ..Quote:
Originally Posted by PolePosition_1
Sometimes people can get a feeling that ioan doesn’t like Lewis – but if we compare him and Schumi first 1,5 - 2 years in F1 – you can’t even speak of them in same day and we shouldn’t even forget that Schumi was a first driver and his team mate was forced to let him win every time till the WDC title was Schumi’s – who can forget Austria 2001 (except ioan :) – Schumi was in BIG lead and despite of that - Rubens was told to let him pas.. (Schumi had 57 points and on second place had 27) .. and more – if we want to remember – but that’s racing ..
Ok - it's little stupid (maybe) but same time quite fun.. :D
(And sorry ioan if i'm speaking about Your F1 sympathies :)
Before all the Ferrari "fans" start jumping off the ship like it is sinking, we need to remember that even with MS, Todt, Brawn, etc. it took from 1996 to 2001 to win a WDC! Yes, a change in management will always shake up some things and cause problems, but to throw everybody out would be going back tothe Ferrari management of the team in the 1980's and early 1990's.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Success goes in cycles. Look at the successful Williams teams from the 1990's and look where they are now.
If you're really a fan, you should stick with your team even when they screw up and are not winning.
I've been a Ferrari fan for 19 year now, and I won't jump of the sinking ship.Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcot
I will however criticize them when criticism is due. What is so difficult to understand?! :rolleyes:
I agree that Ferrari's strategists are average or even below-average of the current F1 field. Maybe the management falls into the same category, although it's a bit harder to say that, because the success and acculumated points account give a general judgement to their work. 2009 gives a better answer for this. But despite some poor areas Ferrari generally is a top team.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Yes, after mid-season it seemed that at least the WCC is in the bag for Ferrari and no-one can stop them, but they have managed to gamble away their clear advantage with great consistency... almost like McLaren last year. So you see, it seems normal for top teams to have a dramatical loss. ;) After the season of 2007 it was McLaren's management, who was bashed to be the worst one of F1. Now you seem to feel their superiority due to gaining advantage over Ferrari. And in 2006 after midseason Renault looked unbeatable, but despite this the title fight became interesting by the end of the season. Surely Ferrari's mistakes annoy you, but tell me, which team doesn't make mistakes?
You mentioned Renault. Well, after 2007 they totally stopped their engine performance upgrades due to engine freeze unlike other manufacturers. This is a serious misjudgement by their management.
STR/RBR management has IMO made significant mistakes too. With one strong team Red Bull could be close to BMW in the WCC.
BMW has been doing a fine job yeah, but they aren't faultless either. I remember at least in 2007 they had clumsy pitstops at times. And if early concentration on 2009 doesn't pay off, they'll be heavily criticized for not making the most of the 2008 season.
I think you've too much got used to Team Schumacher era, when during some periods they totally dominated and took 1-2's in most of the races. Yes, it's obvious, current team is not as complete as the Team MS. But it seems Team MS era has heightened your expectations too high - you expect your team to totally dominate and if they don't do it, they are a dismal failure. You're pretty much a maximalist and this is a result of "too much success". If Ferrari falls to P5 in the WCC, you may start looking at the situation a bit differently... I'm simply trying to look at the positive side - they are still in the title fight. If they lose in the end, we may criticize them. But they haven't lost yet.
I don't expect them to totally dominate, I expect them to be able to capitalize on an excellent car and on excellent drivers.Quote:
Originally Posted by jens
The most difficult part in F1 is to get the car right. Than you need great drivers.
And than you need not to make stupid mistakes.
They are lacking in the last department, the one that is the easiest to get right and the one that can negate all the advantage from the first two.
As I said, I can not praise their management on what they showed this season. I can praise the engineers and the driver(s) however.
Criticism is fine and warranted in many instances. We also have to have a measure of patience as a team goes through changes. Those who are placed in charge will make mistakes (as they did last year even though they won the WDC and WCC) and hopefully they will learn from them. That's the critical part!Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
As far as the pit light system is concerned, the team began that system thinking it would be an improvement. Now that they have used it under the pressure of race situations, they will have to re-think the system and put changes in place or abandon it. This is really no different than any other modification done to any system or even to the car.
Remember when Jean Alesi raced the Ferrari in the wet with the novel "traction control" system? Everyone was praising the system and how well it worked. That same system cost them many races.
Ferrari were also the first to implement the semi-automatic "paddles" on their wheel. That idea worked really well... everyone is using it now. I recall them having problems when that was initially implemented.
When MS joined Ferrari, they went from the V12 to the V10 engine. They had one of the most powerful engines on the grid before the change. The new V10 was less powerful and the other car components were not used to the new vibrations that the V10 was churning out. This 'change' cost them too.
Surely there are more examples of them 'trend setting'?
In all of these cases, they persisted in developing the idea (even though the arm-chair expert may have sneered at their initial failures), and they got to #1 with it.
Don't, as an arm-chair expert, write off the pit-light system until Ferrari do. If they find a winning solution, it won't take long before all the teams start implementing it.
One of the simple solutions to their fuel rig issue would be an automatic switch on the car side of the fuel connector which shows the driver a light while the rig is plugged in. As soon as the rig comes out, the light goes off (rather than rely on a mechanic to press a button). As a backup, have a lollipop man standing doing nothing until there is a problem. If the driver pulls away and the lollipop man sees a problem (like a faulty light sending the driver off again, or oncoming traffic), then he can drop the lollipop on the driver and the team can recover.
I do see the future in the lights once the problems have been ironed out. Lollipop men releasing cars is both time consuming, and, its not as if lollipop men have never sent cars off with the fuel rig still plugged in.
The problem with their lights system is that it isn't automatic at all. It requires the OK of 3 people to give a green light.
The lollipop man solution involves only one decision taker.
The lights system involves 3, thus the probability for errors is also 3x higher.
It's a clear cut for me.
Thats the thing, with the lollipop system, when the 4 tyre guys and fuel man are done, they put a hand up in the air saying they're done. Then the lollipop man gives the final go-ahead.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
With that system, its the same, only difference is when 4 tyres are done, and fuel is done, it goes to green, therefore cutting out the reaction time of the lollipop man from seeing his crew signalling they're done.
With Valencia, it was Kimi's driver error of going before it went green. With Massa, it was a human decision which let Massa out unsafely. And again in Singapore, it was a human decision which let him out with hose still attached.
So the system itself hasn't actually failed yet. As all errors stem from human decisions, which could have easily have been made by a lollipop man.
So I don't think its a case of get rid of the system, I think its just a matter of improving the decision making of the pit crew.
The system itself is faster as it eliminates time needed by the lollipop man to get out of the way, but they have 3 times more decision making individuals involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by PolePosition_1
Well, with a lollipop man, when the guy doing the tyre has finished, he puts his hand up in the air. Making a decision. With the traffic light system, when the man has done a tyre, he pushes a button confirming he finished.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
So for sure a decision is made, but its not much different to a lollipop man.
Only difference I can see is you have a man overlooking everything and making a final decision. With hindsight, this is safer but slightly slower. With the traffic light system, if they could improve the performance of the pit crew, to make less errors, they could essentially have the best of both worlds.
http://www.rbssport.com/f1StrategyGameFiles/
Well, to all those people that fancy being F1 stratagists :D
I only managed 148th at Silverstone :(
356th at Monaco. Stupid safety car!
Edit: 95th when I changed to a 3-stop strategy :D