Kovy should've won the race?

Knock On - you should also check out http://www.visionf1.com/

Amazing website for reviewing races :)

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

Did you follow the race on Live Timing at the same time as the ITV telecast? After the so called unscheduled pit stop (why was there a pit stop, one may ask) the race was virtually over and Lewis was on fresh tyres, or didn't you take that into consideration?

Vettel qualified better, he raced better and he won. End of Story!!

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OK, one thing we both agree on is Vettel qualified better and won.

They both raced very well and Vettel throughly deserved the win.

As for the rest of you assumptions about timings, they are innacurate.

Vettel stopped on lap 18. The gap was +40 sec.

Hamilton battled back and was 1 second behind on lap 26 with them both to make a stop.

Lewis pits and comes out 33 seconds on Lap 28 and gets the gap down to 30 seconds.

However, this is where the predicted rain never materialises and both drivers tear up their wets.

They both pit on Lap 36 with Lewis coming out 34 seconds behind SV.

This is the "so called unscheduled" stop where Lewis was on the wets and had no option but to take on Inters.

All I was saying was that if the rain had of come in around lap 30 as predicted, Lewis would have been right up the pipe of SV at worse after his stop on lap 36.

Is that a bit clearer.

(Thanks wedge. Superb site and just what I was looking for)

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

Knock On - you should also check out http://www.visionf1.com/

Amazing website for reviewing races :)

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That is excellent. I bumped it up to 64X and laughed my tits off :D

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

That is excellent. I bumped it up to 64X and laughed my tits off :D

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:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

OK, one thing we both agree on is Vettel qualified better and won.

They both raced very well and Vettel throughly deserved the win.

As for the rest of you assumptions about timings, they are innacurate.

Vettel stopped on lap 18. The gap was +40 sec.

Hamilton battled back and was 1 second behind on lap 26 with them both to make a stop.

Lewis pits and comes out 33 seconds on Lap 28 and gets the gap down to 30 seconds.

However, this is where the predicted rain never materialises and both drivers tear up their wets.

They both pit on Lap 36 with Lewis coming out 34 seconds behind SV.

This is the "so called unscheduled" stop where Lewis was on the wets and had no option but to take on Inters.

All I was saying was that if the rain had of come in around lap 30 as predicted, Lewis would have been right up the pipe of SV at worse after his stop on lap 36.

Is that a bit clearer.

(Thanks wedge. Superb site and just what I was looking for)

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Yeah I agree, looking at the facts, Hamilton would without a doubt have been near Vettel. I'm just pouring scorn on the fact that some people are saying Hamilton would have won the race hands down if not for his second stop. Its just simply not the case. Vettel did have real true fast pace. And with that taken into account, we shouldn't be too harsh on Heikki.

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

Yeah I agree, looking at the facts, Hamilton would without a doubt have been near Vettel. I'm just pouring scorn on the fact that some people are saying Hamilton would have won the race hands down if not for his second stop. Its just simply not the case. Vettel did have real true fast pace. And with that taken into account, we shouldn't be too harsh on Heikki.

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What I don't understand is that the McLaren could be driven faster as demonstrated by Lewis.

I like HK but he needs to step up to the plate a bit more.

As for Lewis, I don't think you could say that he definatly would have won. However, he would have been close and in the wet conditions, I would have put money on him doing it. From a dismal start to the weekend, he came on strong and if it had of rained as predicted, I think there was a better than even chance he would have won it.

As it was, it didn't rain and he didn't win, SV did and deserved to and HK could have done more with the car under him IMHO.

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

My point is Jjanicke, once Vettel had done his first stop, so Hamilton and Vettel BOTH had just 1 stop to make. Hamilton was 1.5s behind Vettel, both had 1 stop to make. Lewis's pitstops during the race were costing 30s.

Lewis finished 30s behind Vettel at the end of the race. And we all know Hamilton pushed like a mad-man over the second half of the race, so we can be sure that was his ultimate pace. So even if he didn't have to make that second stop, its absolutely no garantuee he'd have won. By timings alone, if we exclude his second stop, he'd have finished pretty much with Vettel. But was Vettel pushing it to the max? Fact he wasn't pressured heavily suggests he had more speed. Plus we also have to take into account Hamilton trying to overtake Vettel.

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Poleposition I agree with everything you say. I'm not saying Lewis would have won, only that he had a very good chance of doing so if he had not had to stop again. For sure second was in his sights, which is a lot better than what Kimi, Massa and (in relation to where he started) Kovi did.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Erm, it wasn't raining at the end of the 1st stint, which is when Kimi was catching Hamilton.

In other words, when the track conditions began to favour the Ferrari, finally allowing it to get some heat in the tyres, the Ferrari started to be the quickest thing on the circuit.

But when the rain came down at the start, Kimi was not "right on Hamilton's tail".

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Perhaps it wasn't raining, but the track was still very wet. However Lewis and Kimi did not use the same tire type for the second stint, and that's when Kimi couldn't keep pace. All I am saying is you can't use Silverstone as a clear indication of wet weather performance of the Mac vs the Ferrari. They went with different tires.

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Originally Posted by jjanicke

Poleposition I agree with everything you say. I'm not saying Lewis would have won, only that he had a very good chance of doing so if he had not had to stop again. For sure second was in his sights, which is a lot better than what Kimi, Massa and (in relation to where he started) Kovi did.

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:up:

Spot on.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

OK, one thing we both agree on is Vettel qualified better and won.

They both raced very well and Vettel throughly deserved the win.

As for the rest of you assumptions about timings, they are innacurate.

Vettel stopped on lap 18. The gap was +40 sec.

Hamilton battled back and was 1 second behind on lap 26 with them both to make a stop.

Lewis pits and comes out 33 seconds on Lap 28 and gets the gap down to 30 seconds.

However, this is where the predicted rain never materialises and both drivers tear up their wets.

They both pit on Lap 36 with Lewis coming out 34 seconds behind SV.

This is the "so called unscheduled" stop where Lewis was on the wets and had no option but to take on Inters.

All I was saying was that if the rain had of come in around lap 30 as predicted, Lewis would have been right up the pipe of SV at worse after his stop on lap 36.

Is that a bit clearer.

(Thanks wedge. Superb site and just what I was looking for)

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OK, I concede I was wrong and Lewis Hamilton should have won. Happy??


I have a ticket to the Grand Final in front of the corporate boxes, and I couldn't give a damn about who wooda shooda kooda won at Monza.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

OK, I concede I was wrong and Lewis Hamilton should have won. Happy??


I have a ticket to the Grand Final in front of the corporate boxes, and I couldn't give a damn about who wooda shooda kooda won at Monza.

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So gracious in defeat :kiss:

Grand final of what?

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Originally Posted by wedge

I can't help but think that the Italian GP was there for Kovy to win.

Massa would've won, Lewis would've won, I even think Kimi would've won from that position!

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Vettlel should have won and he did. He put is car on pole and drove off just like champions do. The rest had their chance and couldn't get it up on one of the premier speed tracks in F1. Remarkable performance by Vettel and the team as well.

Lewis could have won. But he didn't.

Kovy possibly should have won. But he didn't.

You might argue that either of the Ferrari drivers should have challenged for the win. But they didn't.

Sure the weather played a part, but Vettel didn't luck into this win. He was quick all weekend, got his qualifying absolutely perfect and drove a superb race. Fousto's right on this one :up:

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Originally Posted by Dave Brockman

Lewis could have won. But he didn't.

Kovy possibly should have won. But he didn't.

You might argue that either of the Ferrari drivers should have challenged for the win. But they didn't.

Sure the weather played a part, but Vettel didn't luck into this win. He was quick all weekend, got his qualifying absolutely perfect and drove a superb race. Fousto's right on this one :up:

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:up:

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Originally Posted by Dave Brockman

Lewis could have won. But he didn't.

Kovy possibly should have won. But he didn't.

You might argue that either of the Ferrari drivers should have challenged for the win. But they didn't.

Sure the weather played a part, but Vettel didn't luck into this win. He was quick all weekend, got his qualifying absolutely perfect and drove a superb race. Fousto's right on this one :up:

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I agree.

Things could have been different but were not.

Vettell did a superb job and rightly deserved the win.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

So gracious in defeat :kiss:

Grand final of what?

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Aerial ping pong I assume :)

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

So gracious in defeat :kiss:

Grand final of what?

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Fumbleball :D

Ozzy Rules!!

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

Ozzy Rules!!

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I watched Kerry in the Celtic Footy recently. Cross between Aussie rules and Rugby. Excellent game.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Yes he is, and on top of that he's the weakest driver they had for a very long period! :laugh:

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:D indeed!!!!!

As a Ferrari fan, I find that very good.
As a race fan, dissapointing, because he is wasting a good seat.

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

:D indeed!!!!!

As a Ferrari fan, I find that very good.
As a race fan, dissapointing, because he is wasting a good seat.

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Still it seems that we shouldn't criticize him cause he's driving a McLaren! ;)

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Originally Posted by ioan

Still it seems that we shouldn't criticize him cause he's driving a McLaren! ;)

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Indeed, maybe we should praise him as much as possible in the hope of McLaren retaining him for a few more year

But Ron has always liked blond finnish boys, so maybe we don`t need to do much ;)

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

Indeed, maybe we should praise him as much as possible in the hope of McLaren retaining him for a few more year

But Ron has always liked blond finnish boys, so maybe we don`t need to do much ;)

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Good point! ;)

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Originally Posted by ioan

Still it seems that we shouldn't criticize him cause he's driving a McLaren! ;)

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Well Heikki is certainly better than De la Rosa or Coulthard, how many years did Coulthard drive for the team? So he could be there for a while.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

I watched Kerry in the Celtic Footy recently. Cross between Aussie rules and Rugby. Excellent game.

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Great game. Then there is another game they play in Ireland called Hurling where they whack a ball with this club. Occasionally, they would also hit the head of an opponent. (check it out with google). One year, they had the championship final of both games one after the other and I still have it on tape. Interesting that half the members of one of the teams were from the same family.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

Well Heikki is certainly better than De la Rosa or Coulthard, how many years did Coulthard drive for the team? So he could be there for a while.

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Coulthards best at McLaren > Heikki's best at McLaren, to date.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

Well Heikki is certainly better than De la Rosa or Coulthard, how many years did Coulthard drive for the team? So he could be there for a while.

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At the moment, Heikki's performances are similar to Eddie Irvine's. i.e. Rather average and can only win in a title-contending car when others in front of him fall off the road. We'll see if that changes.

When DC was in a McLaren, he was often faster than Mika, and finished ahead in the WDC more than once against the double world champion. Things that should be taken into consideration are the number of times his car blew up or when he had to yield to Mika. Yes, Heikki has had some bad luck this year, but even so he has not looked at all spectacular.

To say Heikki is better than DC was in a top car is simply wrong, IMO.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

Well Heikki is certainly better than De la Rosa or Coulthard...

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I'm no DC fan, but still I disagree.

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Originally Posted by Malllen

At the moment, Heikki's performances are similar to Eddie Irvine's. i.e. Rather average and can only win in a title-contending car when others in front of him fall off the road. We'll see if that changes.

When DC was in a McLaren, he was often faster than Mika, and finished ahead in the WDC more than once against the double world champion. Things that should be taken into consideration are the number of times his car blew up or when he had to yield to Mika. Yes, Heikki has had some bad luck this year, but even so he has not looked at all spectacular.

To say Heikki is better than DC was in a top car is simply wrong, IMO.

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He seems to be going backwards this year race on race.

I'm not doing a Tifosi fan special and calling for decapitation of the poor boy but I am struggleing to see what he's playing at. I think that he's a lot more capable than what he's showing us.

McLaren need to figure out how to get him contributing again.

I would give Heikki 2009 season in McLaren too, but with the demand of needing to perform. If pace-wise he'll be so far behind Lewis in 2009 too, then this should be his last year in the team.

Maybe McLaren like to have a 2nd driver clearly slower than the top guy and thus avoiding problems like last year.

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Originally Posted by F1boat

Maybe McLaren like to have a 2nd driver clearly slower than the top guy and thus avoiding problems like last year.

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not the case.

Heikke has shown to be a liability to the team this year to make that argument sound. He has lost valuable WDC points opportunites this year. Has never challenged those ahead of him in the race and seems to lack consistnet pace on race day driving what is arguably one of the 4 fastest cars on the grid. If points were awarded after Quali then I'd say he's right there. But they are not. It is how you finish the race that matters.

Now after Singapore, he states that he' is ready to help the team to win both titles in an effort to prove his worth.

So I will see what these next three races are hging to show me. I don't need him to cede to LH. I just need him to perform very well to keep the two ferrari's in check and take away as many points from them as possible.

Ferrari have already come out and declared they are going for 1-2's in the last 3 races. Thast should be McLaren's goals as well and Heike's motivation.
Finish ahead of massa!

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Originally Posted by truefan72

Thast should be McLaren's goals as well and Heike's motivation.
Finish ahead of massa!

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Massa laughs at kovalainen.

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

Massa laughs at kovalainen.

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Apparently only when leading.

When not (leading) Massa can't do anything.

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Originally Posted by jjanicke

Apparently only when leading.

When not (leading) Massa can't do anything.

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Don`t drink&post.

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Originally Posted by jjanicke

Apparently only when leading.

When not (leading) Massa can't do anything.

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yup

and when being chased down by top drivers ( Alonso in Germany 07, LH in Germany 08) he has nothing for them and predictably yields the position.

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Originally Posted by truefan72

yup

and when being chased down by top drivers ( Alonso in Germany 07, LH in Germany 08) he has nothing for them and predictably yields the position.

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I thought Massa fought hard at the 2007 European Grand Prix and the two cars almost touched, but Alonso was so much quicker (2 sec per lap) that his pass sooner or later was almost inevitable.

Maybe Mclaren should try "rebuilding" Kovalianen?

"Heikki is a guy who was systematically taken apart last year and we have systematically put him back together again”

Copyright Ron Dennis 2008.

Hmmm...have Mclaren lost their Loctite sponsorship?

Maybe Mclaren should try "rebuilding" Kovalianen?

"Heikki is a guy who was systematically taken apart last year and we have systematically put him back together again”

Copyright Ron Dennis 2008.

Hmmm...have Mclaren lost their Loctite sponsorship?

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Maybe Mclaren should try "rebuilding" Kovalianen?

"Heikki is a guy who was systematically taken apart last year and we have systematically put him back together again”

Copyright Ron Dennis 2008.

Hmmm...have Mclaren lost their Loctite sponsorship?

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PML :laugh:

I was thinking this the other day.

Heikki is a weird one and no mistake, guv.

When he got to McLaren, he settled in and was getting faster. McLaren did do a good job getting him up to speed and it looked a great decision from Ron.

What has happened now I have no idea. Perhaps he thought he was going to challenge Lewis and has been blown away. Perhaps he has lost his confidence or perhaps he's just lost a bit of enthusiasm.

Who knows but it's got to be turned around soon.

I'll see what I can find out at the weekend.