Well after Hamiltons immunity from rule breaking last year I think this is fair. Personal crane service anyone?
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Well after Hamiltons immunity from rule breaking last year I think this is fair. Personal crane service anyone?
Well after Hamiltons immunity from rule breaking last year I think this is fair. Personal crane service anyone?
I don't understand. He did give the place back. That is a fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by eu
I agree. He gained a small advantage from the corner, I don't think that it was worthy of this penalty though. You'd be forgiven for thinking that he had punted Raikkonen into the wall and cruised to victory scattering all before him. Or something.
:o
It's amazing that is what was written on the official Formula One website:Quote:
Originally Posted by eu
Just because Max Mosley may have castration fantasies, it's unfortunate that his band of blind mice stewards feel the need to do the same to F1. Good hard racing is disallowed in the current F1 Powder Puff. Paint the cars pink, hire Danica Patrick and make sure no one gets within 50 feet of another car.Quote:
Battling for the lead as rain started to fall in the dying laps, Hamilton ran across the Bus Stop chicane as he attempted to pass Raikkonen. He correctly surrendered the position, but then dived past the Ferrari going into the La Source hairpin.
However, Raikkonen quickly retook the lead as Hamilton ran wide at Pouhon, only to then lose it for good as he spun into the wall and retirement, handing the British driver his fifth win of the season.
he didn't lose any advantage... he just simulated he was giving back the position after cutting the chicane.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
Thing is there is only 1 line through that corner and Lewis wasn't able to go through side by side with Kimi (he went off remember?). You just can't turn a mistake like going off into an opportunity to drop straight into the slipstream of the driver in front and take them back almost straight away. If you allowed this sort of thing drivers would just drive off the road, give the position back and jump back into the slipstream of the car in front for a guaranteed overtake. Now I don't feel Lewis went off on purpose to gain an advantage but it does seem like he gained an advantage by going off the track and that is something which is wrong. I think if Lewis had stayed behind for another corner or 2 the result would be the same and we wouldn't be here talking about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
btw..now that we are talking about Marchals and punishments..what penalty did Bourdais got for driving into the back of Trulli at the start ?
I've not posted to these forums in ages, just lurking and reading, but this latest farce has led me to comment.
F1 and the FIA have a real image problem. Firstly the Max thing - yes he's FIA, but most of the media coverage used mentioned F1 when explaining who Max Mosley was, so as far as the general public is concerned, he is the head of F1 (which in a sense he is... but what I'm trying to say is that the scandal probably tarnished F1 more than most motorsport). There was the problem in the past few years with Schumacher winning everything. Sometimes controversially, but the majority of the time on merit.
There was the 'spying' fiasco, which thankfully didn't impact on the WDC, and Kimi deservedly won the WDC on merit.
Now, again, the outcome of a race is decided after the event. Like him or not, Lewis managed to keep the car between the green bits for most of the last 2 laps. Driving in trecherous conditions, and passing Kimi, not once, but twice - Fairly. Had he not passed him a second time, I would have had some sympathy with the argument that he had gained an advantage through the chicane, but this is just ridiculous.
I really don't see who has gained from this - F1 has been hurt again with accusations of fixing the result to try and make the WDC more exciting, Ferrari have been accused of having a helping hand, McLaren still lead the WDC and WCC championships, albeit by a depleated margin, and once again racing has been punished.
If the aim was to bring the WDC closer - as I pointed out to my Dad when he was saying that Lewis was beginning to look comfortable - the way the result stood at the chequered flag, Lewis needed one engine blowup and Massa to win for the WDC to be brought right back to a hair's breadth.
Had we not already bought non-refundable tickets for Silverstone next year, I wouldn't have bothered. I've been incredibly loyal to this sport for many years, but it's really getting to the point where my patience can't be stretched much further.
When I saw that taking place I kinda wondered about whether there would be trouble over this . Indeed , there is .
Lewis went off-track and , although he let Kimi back into the lead , he was granted the perfect entry into Kimi's slipstream with the move .
Had he lft any attempt until after the next corner , he would not have been changed with this .
The "concertina" effect , with Kimi ahead into the corner , would have allowed a greater distance between before La Source .
He could have gotten him up the hill .
It wasn't just for Kimi that second wasn't good enough .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Um daniel..it was Lewis being on the racingline..not Kimi...
After watching it again, I am actually siding with the people who said it was deserved (thought it was pretty extreme when first heard of it). He raced alongside him down the stright, backing off just a little bit, cutting right across the back of Kimi and diving down the inside. He would not have been able to have that run on him if he had got through the chicane legally. This is my opinion and I tried not to be too biased.
Surely Hamilton easing off to let Raikkonen past negated any advantage he had from cutting the chicane - Raikkonen then had the momentum going into the first corner.
I'll wait and see what the results of any appeal may be but I'm pretty disappointed it has come to this
now amuses me when I remeber those images where Hamilton was explaining to Heidfeld and Massa just how smart he is and how he overtook Kimi.
it's really a shame Kimi wasn't there to take advantage of this decision.
So completely corrupt.
Hamilton cut through the bus stop chikane to avoid colliding with Raikkonen. Hamilton's front wheels where clearly in front of Raikkonen's rear wheels, so Raikkonen forcing Hamilton off the track was an illegal move.
On top of that Hamilton lets Raikkonen pass him down the straight. Raikkonen does a zig-zag manoeuvre and loses speed and Hamilton overtakes him again.
Then Raikkonen makes contact with Hamilton's tire in the corner after the straight. Similar situation caused a puncture on Heikki Kovalainen's car in the Turkey gran prix.
If anyone should be penalized it should be Raikkonen
Last three laps here
Cheers
Viktory..what you say is pretty contradictory..you say he took advantage....but you also say he backed of a little to have Kimi pass him again ? so what's left of the advantage ?..and the reason why Lewis passed Kimi again so easaly was simply because he was a lot faster in the condtions of that moment..simple as that !Quote:
Originally Posted by Viktory
I've just rewatched the replay on ITV's website and I was wrong, they didnt touch in the chicane, Hamilton just dodged going over what were foot high concrete kerbing, just behind the red and white kerbing, that would have undoubtedly launched his car into Kimi's.
However, at no point down the straight into La Source was Hamilton in Kimi's slipstream, they were close to being side-by-side with Kimi definitely ahead and pulling away because Lewis had to back off to let him past. Hamilton got him under braking fair and square because Kimi was braking so much earlier in the slick conditions. As I said earlier, the only advantage Hamilton had was that he is much better on the brakes at overtacking than most in the field.
Besides I recall seing this kind of thing before, possibly with Schumacher, were a car would cut the chicane and give the place back but in such a way that they can immidiately line up for an overtacking move into the next corner without any penalties being given. Cant remember when or exactly where (possibly Monza) or even exactly who, but I definitely remember seeing it happen before.
Yeah, that is a shame. Say, why wasn't Kimi there? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by eu
the advantage is that he was so much closer than he would have been, just cutting across the back of Kimi and diving down the inside. Look at the video and you will understand what I mean. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfLs2-w1NlYQuote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
So the racing line was off the track was it? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
What makes you assume that in those conditions Raikkonen would have been able to accelerate out of the corner quickly and not have Hamilton over the back of him, given that he was so much slower in the wet anyway (the chicane looked considerably wetter than Le Fagnia (sp?) were he spun). Pure speculation given how those last 3 laps went anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viktory
I mend before goin into the corner...Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
They just have to wade into everything dont they. I don't see why they can't just let things lie from time to time, especially in this case as it turned out to be a victimless crime.
What a way to disillussion F1 fans who have just witnessed a great race, only to find out hours later the result has been altered.
They get one of probably about five decent races this year and then they go and mess it up after the flag.
I think Hamilton did gain an advantage but on a wet track trying to quantify that advantage is extremely difficult. IMO if you take the whole chicane incident out of the equation I think Lewis would have passed Kimi regardless. The stewards are being incredibly harsh on Lewis but to be honest I can say that I'm at all suprised.
"Crane service" wasn't forbidden by the rules during the time of the European GP, that's why it was possible to use this option.Quote:
Originally Posted by BTCC2
You do realise that you have to go through corners and be on the racing line in the corners to be fast don't you? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
This is 100% about the FIA and local stewards favouring Ferrari over Mclaren, and nothing to do with the rights and wrongs of Lewis's on-track moves.
An indication of the Belgians' distaste for anyone beating the red cars came on the podium, where the crowd loudly booed Hamilton, and roared with enthusiasm when Massa got his second place trophy.
He drove brilliantly, and was the only driver to control his car for the last 2 laps at any sort of pace. This was a thoroughly deserved win!
If this ludicrous penalty stands, and Lewis loses the championship by 6 points or less, I for one will be scratching the result out of my copy of Autocourse and writing the real one in with a crayon.
McLaren's view:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70404Quote:
"We looked at all our data and also made it available to the FIA stewards. It showed that, having lifted, Lewis was 6km/h slower than Kimi as they crossed the start/finish line.
"Having passed the lead back to Kimi, Lewis repositioned his car, moving across and behind Kimi to the right-hand line and then outbraked him into the hairpin. Based on this data, we have no option other than to register our intention to appeal."
:up:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleeper
so much closer ? before the corner he was next to Kimi..lewis even being on the racing line..after the corner he was behind Kimi not ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Viktory
+ found Kimi's weaving also pretty dangerous just before Lewis made the pass..not to speak about Kimi hitting Lewis on the rear tire just after that..what about those moves ? Did the marchals noticed those to ?
lose some, win some. That is reality. Stop being a cry baby and accept the decision. :oQuote:
Originally Posted by F1boat
Man I hate stupid n00bish stuff like that. Screw the data. In situations like this judgments should be made on what we can see rather than what some datalogging software says.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
im not happy ferrari get away with it again dont they like drivers overtaking them lewis is the only driver.he lets back in the lead then overtakes him at the hairpin kimi was swirving all over the place and lewis dived up the inside fair move he was quicker in the wet the best driver won i thought i hope the team appeal and win
Yep - and based on what I saw, the penalty was undeserved. He relinquished the place willingly, and even passed Kimi twice on the same lap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
I believe 25 seconds was used, not as a quantifier, but as an indication of what he would have lost had he been given a drive-through, which is the usual penalty for cutting a chicane.
YOU, ARE A POWDER PUFF. SWALLOW YOUR DISAPIONTMENT AND ACCEPT THE DECISION. IF THE DECISION WAS WRONG, BELIEVE ME, THAT MCLAREN WILL LAUNCH A PROTEST, AND EVERY ONE WILL LOOK AT THAT DECISION VERY CLOSELY. IF THEY RE-TRACT IT, THEN YOU CAN SCREAM BLOODY MURDER...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
yep I do realise that..so in this case Lewis was on the racing line goin into the corner..kimi..was off the racing line..but came back on with lewis next to him..giving Lewis no other choise than to either cut the corner or hit Kimi's car...right ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Them's fightin' words :rotflmao:Quote:
Originally Posted by 1zorro
Watching the videos, I do not see an advantage, given afterwards that Kimi ended up way in front when Hamilton left the road again, only for Kimi to spin.
I do think the backmarkers were far more of a problem of getting in Kimi's way and causing or contributing to the last two spins or offroad excursions of kimi.
Nevertheless, there is hamster bragging (once AGAIN) about how he has superior driving ability that caused him to win, when if kimi had not had the spin after getting back in front (contributed to by a car that was about to get lapped) then hamilton would be excusing his bad luck in going off-roading and falling way behind.
But again, if the road were dry that would be one thing, but this was NOT the case. FIA should not be sticking their nose into it.
Botttom line it was all more luck and blind hope that the tires hold. Period.
Speak up! I couldn't hear you.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1zorro
When you get these keys figured out, then you can get back to me. OK, genius?
http://www.newscientist.com/blog/tec...ock-717174.jpg
I would dearly, dearly love to see McLaren just walk away after this. It's getting ridiculous now.
He passed off the track. OK. He gave the position back. OK. What more do they want? Is there a mandated distance back he has to go? Does he have to apologize to Kimi with flowers and nice chocolates? Perhaps penitentally follow him around like a lapdog?
Vile.
Exactly! It was good hard racing until some old guys in suits felt the need to play with the results.Quote:
Originally Posted by markabilly
For goodness sake, let them race! It's things like this that make me miss the old CART series. None of this limp wristed silliness back then. Too bad that got flushed.
This really is a joke, but that is the tradition of the FIA.
I doubt that this decision will stand in a world of fair appeals, but this is the FIA, you know the one that got no problem with a certain prez, can not measure temperature outside properly, and on and on......so since logic would dictate the opinion does not stand, safe money would be on it does.