Now that I think about it, this schedule does show Tony George's one undeniable trait: Getting fans to gleefully accept mediocrity and agressively defending it.
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Now that I think about it, this schedule does show Tony George's one undeniable trait: Getting fans to gleefully accept mediocrity and agressively defending it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDS
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GMAB. This schedule (put together on the fly pretty much at last minute due to CCWS going BK) is 10x stronger and more diverse than anything CC offered the last 4 or 5 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by MDS
Put that in yer pipe & smoke it.
Well not sure why they had to drop Nashville. Homestead or Sonoma would've been my first choices (assuming Motegi can't be dropped).
The schedule is getting ridiculous with the number of street festivals. It's starting to look like Champ Car with ovals. :rolleyes: I know they're trying to play it off as a "merger" but that doesn't mean we should take all their crappy races, especially if it means sacrificing perfectly good races at places like Nashville who have been incredibly loyal to this series. Not to mention it's a non-ISC oval which are hard to come by. They would rather stay at a horrible ISC track like Homestead that doesn't promote at all. Makes no sense.
Essentially, the IRL just destroyed their fanbase and support in the Nashville area in favor of Torontonians that know nothing about racing and just want a street party to attend for a couple days. This Champ Car philosophy is NOT the way to go. REAL fans (and tracks) should come before street parades that only attract weekenders with no interest in the series or racing at all.
The first half of the schedule looks good anyway. But I'll probably lose interest along the way since the second half contains the majority of the horrible tracks.
Overall though it's not too bad. About what I expected and no major differences. You can tell they're trying to free up dates for places like Cleveland and Road America for 2010 so that's promising. Hopefully those places can put together viable financial plans to make events work. Though I'm sure the fanatics will find some way to blame it on TG if they can't.
I always think it's funny when people think tracks like California and Michigan actually have a chance at ever hosting open-wheelers again.Quote:
Originally Posted by MDS
Time to stop living in the past.
Richmond and Iowa want the IRL, California and Michigan do not. It's pretty simple.
Well I wouldn't call Toronto just some "street festival". The race has a 20 year history. I think that's enough to classify as tradition. The same goes for Long Beach.
I agree completely tht toronto is not a street festival and it certainly has a rich history. When I say there are too many street races I am refering to Detroit. My point is if you are going to have a race in michigan have it at a great track , mis.I understand also there isn't much chance of getting it back but Detroit is still a lousy substitute. If it must be a race to satisfy road race fans(I am one and I loved Champcar) there are much better locations then Detroit. Furthermore I love the fact Toronto is on the list and I just might plan a vacation there next year to coincide with the race.
david
We don't know if a Nashville dropped the IRL or the IRL dropped Nashville, granted, one of the country's BEST sports towns.
It just means the IRL and Dover Downs couldn't strike a bargain. Same with other venues that aren't on the schedule.
Actually we do know that the IRL dropped Nashville. I might've heard wrong, but I'm pretty sure there weren't even any talks between the IRL and Dover. Why do you think there was so much anti-IRL sentiment in the Nashville press? I don't think they would be mad at the IRL if it was Dover that couldn't put together a good plan. That same press has supported and defended this series for years and in return they get the door slammed on them. Not the best way to make fans. NASCAR will completely take over that market now with no competition in town.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
As for Toronto, I don't have anything against the race I think it is one of the better street races, however I don't like the idea of dropping a perfectly good race like Nashville for it. Homestead or Sonoma or Motegi or Belle Isle, etc, fine. But what was wrong with Nashville? It was a well supported race on a decent non-ICS track.
And we have way too many street races already. I think they should've either dropped Edmonton for it, or Belle Isle, or atleast decide not to take the trek halfway around the world to Australia to be a support series. I would hate to see St. Pete dropped as it is my local race, but I wouldn't be completely against it either if it meant more road courses or good ovals instead of another giant street party that happens to have cars driving around during it.
Just the thing, Helix: WE DON'T KNOW.
Did Dover offer or agree to an acceptable sanctioning fee? Did Dover make enough money on the race to agree to the IRL's demands of a sanctioning fee? Did NASCAR pull strings to handcuff Nashville on an IRL date? Did IRL handcuff itself into a date Nashville couldn't live with?
WE DON'T KNOW why they couldn't strike a bargain.
hmm, Michigan and Cleveland :(
but i like it
Edmonton may be temporary, bit it is more a road track than a street circuit...Quote:
Originally Posted by -Helix-
Is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by downtowndeco
I think they need to get more road courses on the calendar, and make Surfers Paradise a championship event. It's the best street circuit on the calendar, and coupled with the V8 Supercars, its one of the best motorsport events.
He learned it from Bernie and Max.Quote:
Originally Posted by MDS
I love the idea that oval fans are there because they love the IRL sooo much, but in reality Chicago and Kansas are showing up because of the NASCAR "season ticket" package where a lot of NASCAR fans try to unload their tickets on the net or give them away to friends. Does Iowa get good crowds? Of course, but that's because its in Iowa. What else is there to do in Iowa on a summer weekend? Watch the corn grow? It's not like they have any A-level professional sport or entertainment of any kind in that state. Homestead is filled with smokers who show up because they get free tickets and can smoke outsideQuote:
Originally Posted by -Helix-
Insult my state like that, its on. For the record I have NEVER been in a corn field or cow pasture. Over half the population lives in cities, have top flight schools and universities, enjoy such things are concerts and our many casinos.Quote:
Originally Posted by MDS
The ex-CC fans on this board should think about the fact that many of the CC venues were supported by CC and/or KK and/or GF. And all three went belly-up on the exercise. The IRL, however, is still standing.
And no matter how you slice it, 30,000 sets of buns on the boards at Iowa is 10,000 more people than 20,000 at Cleveland.
On a ground zero basis, this is the old, long-standing oval preference vs. road course preference argument. Enough has been said about that over the years to fill the bandwidth of six Internets.
http://www.grandprixofcleveland.com/
Quote:
Indy Racing League and MJ Promotions Statement Regarding the Grand Prix of Cleveland
CLEVELAND – July 30, 2008: The IndyCar Series will announce its 2009 schedule today but due to previous contractual obligations, the IndyCar Series will not be able to include the Grand Prix of Cleveland for next year. MJ Promotions, owner of the Grand Prix of Cleveland, had organized a proposal for the IndyCar Series with the help of local government and community leaders, and series officials traveled to Cleveland in June for a presentation and site visit. Although scheduling the event for 2009 was not possible, IndyCar Series and MJ Promotions officials confirmed today that discussions are ongoing about bringing the racing series to Cleveland in 2010.
“We were very impressed by the presentation and we recognize that there is a rich history of open-wheel racing in Cleveland,” said Terry Angstadt, president, commercial division, Indy Racing League, the sanctioning body for the IndyCar Series and Firestone Indy Lights. “However, due to contractual obligations and our desire to grow the schedule in a way that will work for all involved it was impossible to add all of the races we would have liked for 2009. We are looking forward to continuing to work with Mike Lanigan and MJ Promotions on the possibly of racing at Burke Lakefront Airport in the future.”
Mike Lanigan, CEO of MJ Promotions, added, “We are disappointed that the IRL was not able to include us for next year, but Cleveland is a great city with a proud racing tradition so we are very optimistic for 2010. We are grateful for the continued support of Mayor Jackson and the entire Cleveland community, and our company remains committed to the future of racing on the shores of Lake Erie.”
Ticket Refunds
Fans who have previously purchased tickets for the 2008 Grand Prix of Cleveland will receive a full refund on the ticket price. Fans who paid by credit card will receive their refund automatically, and fans who paid by check will receive a refund in the mail (please allow several weeks for all checks to be processed). Fans who purchased tickets in person at a Ticketmaster location must return to that location in person with their tickets to receive a refund.
If you have any questions, please call 216.619.7223 or email us at [email:2psuqirq]info@grandprixofcleveland.com[/email:2psuqirq].
Maybe a dumb question: Why in the world would anyone have bought tickets at Cleveland for 2008?
The point I was trying to make though is that while we don't know what the case really was, it's pretty obvious the IRL had no intentions of even attempting at making it work.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
I'm not even sure what this garbage is trying to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by MDS
But why on earth would these supposed NASCAR fans go to an IndyCar race if they have no reason for being there?
If I had tickets to a ballet yet I had no interest in ballet, I doubt I would use them.
But apparently you went to Chicago and Kansas and questioned every single person there on why they came to the event and found out this information. I wish I had your free time.
And I'm pretty sure it's legal to smoke in Miami, as it is in most places in the world. Why would smokers have to go to a race just to be able to light up? Seems like a waste of parking/gas/concession/etc money when you could just smoke at your own house.
Logic is a great thing. You should try it sometime.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erHQmiqD8BIQuote:
Originally Posted by Wilf
Helix, nine times out of 10, it's "follow the money."
If Dover Downs offered a sanction fee of $10, or the IRL demanded a sanction fee of $10 million, it'd be easy to determine which became disinterested enough to cause the other to say "no."
But we don't know if either of those things happened. Or something else of significance that led to it. Something happened, because Nashville is a good sports town and Firestone has significant interest there. We just don't know what it was.
Miatanut, how does that video, from before the league was even announced, support what you claim?
No wonder nobody listened to TG at CART, they fell asleep before he could make his point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miatanut
I didn't claim anything. I let Tony explain it in his own words. Somebody made a comment that Tony wasn't talking about an oval-based league populated with American drivers.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Did you watch it?
That WAS the announcement of the league. Between all the 'uh's" and "um's" (some things don't change), he said he wanted his league to have "more of an American flavor (code for stopping the American series from being over-run with F1 retirees and rejects)" and be oval-based. From that point forward, CART was expected to do as Tony told them, or he would take his ball and go home. They didn't, then he did. Just as recently with Las Vegas speedway (again, some things don't change).
If the real intent in forming the league was to just create the current, but weaker, imitation of CART, what was the point of these last few years?
Well, if you read all that into TG's statement with your "code," are any aliens coming in from Pluto in the next few days?
I didn't see any "line in the sand" drawn from that. In fact, Craig's statements were to have discussions with TG. Sure, a lot of things happened later, but not with THAT video clip.
I'm sure Iowa is a nice place to live, for some people who like a certain lifestyle. My problem with Iowa is, its a tiny media market with a small population, and little local media or corporations to drawn from.Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig
A lot of IRL races are in the middle of nowhere.
Out of the top 10 markets the IRL has has four races: Los Angeles, Chicago, the Bay area, and Dallas. The could have picked up an established race Houston, and an oval near Boston but chose to let that market go.
Only seven IRL races are in the top 20 U.S. Media markets: St Pete, Detriot, and Miami. They could have picked up Cleveland, but chose not to.
Only eight IRL races are in the top 30 market: Indianapolis. They dropped Nashville and could have picked up Portland.
Four races are in the 30 to 40 market range: Kansas City, Columbus, Milwaukee, Cincinnatti
There are no races in the 40 to 50 market range. That means out of 19 races only 12 are in major top U.S. 50 media markets. Racing in front of small crowds in the middle of no where, like Iowa and Richmond do the sport little good.
This schedule was one big chance for the IRL to make waves, bring positive attention to itself with a series of marquee events, instead they throw out dull, almost the same as the year before crap, and people wonder why the Indy 500 ratings are below the NASCAR average and far below the NASCAR broadcast channel average.
Sure ISC events might be off the table, but take Eddie Gossage up on his five track deal to get New Hampshire and Las Vegas on the schedule. I'd much rather see the season end with a 400 mile event at LVMS than a 300 miler at Homestead.
This was the year to back Paul Newman's effort to get a race at Floyd Bennett Feild. It would be a big market marquee event in Brooklyn in April to lend exposure to the Indy 500.
Pikes Peak has been sold, if NASCAR didn't put anything in the lease prohibit it, look at staging a race there.
Look at having an early season race in Brazil. The league has a number of Brazillian drivers and sponsors, so it would more than likely be successful. It's in the same time zone as the US and because of the climate you could stage a race at the PK circuit in March.
Mexico City could be another March race date on a big stage.
There were bigger better options out there, and none of them made it on the schedule. I don't know if that's the tracks' or promotors' fault, but I bet a fair bit of the blame can find a home in Indianapolis.
MDS, congratulations on an understanding of markets. You get an "A" in reading market population lists and an "F" in how racing schedules come together.
There are many elements to a schedule: Promoter, sanctioning body, venue, weather, dates, TV, where sponsors want to be, where competitors want to be, where fans want to be, etc. If all those elements strike a bargain, you are likely to have a successful race. If it was just to take a list of the top 50 markets, say "okay, NYC is No. 1 so we'll go there," any sport would do it in a heartbeat. But ISC already struck out building a track there and CART's efforts at the Meadowlands were a disaster.
Iowa? Newton is just down I-80 from Des Moines, a city with the second largest number of insurance company headquarters in the nation behind Hartford, Conn. Near Des Moines are the Knoxville Nationals, one of the premier events in sprint car racing in the nation and an event with a long racing history. IMO, it should not be dismissed as a bunch of hayseeds.
Houston? A loser, financially. Loudon? Probably in 2010. Cleveland? A loser, financially. Portland? A loser, financially. It's still a question of who dropped who on Nashville and I'm not convinced that both sides, promoter and sanctioning body, just couldn't agree on money. Vegas? Lost money on both IRL and CC at LVMS, lost a TON with CC downtown, enough that the promoter it talked into it canceled his other race in Phoenix.
Did you/do you expect all of that, the top 19 markets, to just be knocked over in a nice tidy row in six months' time and throw out the rest? If so, you knock out the Indianapolis 500 because Indianapolis isn't in the top 19, even though it contains the world's largest seating facility and the world's longest standing auto race.
Richmond? Draw a circle 100 miles around Richmond on your atlas and see what you find.
Pikes Peak? It's closed. Period. All gone. No more. Brazil? What good does that do American sponsors for teams and series? CART's teams and sponsors complained in the late '80s and early '90s when it was making noise about going abroad. Surfers? Mexico City? Same thing. Don't think Mexico City even has a promoter now. Motegi? Honda and Firestone, two of the major sponsors, want it and they get it.
Six months to execute all of your wonderful options would be next to impossible, even if venues suddenly sprouted up in NYC and elsewhere on your target list and were following the IRL like a Pied Piper to your doorstep.
This will take time and, IMO, you will never be pleased with it.
You cannot deny this schedule release was their chance to carry any momentum from the merger and they wiffed. I don't think anyone outside of the fans of this message board and two others care. It's dull, its repetative, it is in a bunch of tiny markets with two major events and then a whole lotta nothing.
As far as Newman's race in Brooklyn its something he's been working on for three years now. If Tony George got behind it they could have gotten it done. The legwork has been done, there is a promoter in place, it could be done at a lower cost because its an abandoned airport. Had it been made a priority it could have happened.
There is a lack of inspiration and vision in Indy. They've got there one used-to-be-big event and a NASCAR race and as long as those two things are cash cows they're not really inspired to get off their ass and do anything else. Had Michael Andretti not taken the inatitive, lobbied and put his own money into Toronto the only thing that would have changed was a couple of dates, all the tracks would have been the same.
I haven't heard any aliens giving interviews that they are coming from Pluto. I did hear Tony George talking there that if he didn't get things his way, he was going to start his own oval racing series "with more of an American flavor". In other words, "My way or the highway." It was meant to be very clear at the time, it was very clear, and exactly what he described happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
I also heard Andrew Craig trying to be diplomatic. Probably Las Vegas speedway and Surfer's Paradise were being diplomatic with Tony, and in response they got "My way or the highway". I expect it will happen to the LBGP too. It's just a matter of how long it will take for that to happen.
You have got to be kidding me!!!! Are you for real??!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Miatanut
This is your problem and for those fanatics out there:
1) You base you narrow mind and argument against IRL for what was said and done 12 years ago.
2) You believed that CC and CART existed because of you, the fanatics.
3) You typically ignore the reality that even Paul Newman, Paul Tracy, Jimmy Vasser who's been very vocal against IRL in the past are now in IRL. Even the freaking owner of the series, KK, is now in IRL!!! Next year, Forsythe most likely join IRL too.
4) Champ Car has been officially dead since February. It's gone! You cannot stand how TG work his own, then you know what to do. How in the h3ll have you became an IRL fan in the first place? When CC was still ran by the amigos, you guys already hated IRL!! Oh no, please don't tell me that you are hoping that the CC guys are gonna come back or take over the IRL. Please no. Or start a thread how the CC guys are kicking the IRL guys.....how's that gonna happen? IRL and CC racing? Where's CC now, anyways?
Grow up.
Odd post from somebody using the handle "CART750HP"!Quote:
Originally Posted by Cart750hp
For the record, for the last few years I felt quite strongly that there needed to be a single series, and I felt the last year of Champ Car represented desecrating the rotting corpse of CART.
Also for the record, I read the White Paper with glee when it first became public, because I knew Gurney was proposing exactly what the sport needed. The subsequent years of growth proved that.
Currently we have the bad things about the USAC days without the good things.
Hard to find any joy in that.
This post of yours is nothing but wishing IRL's schedule to be similar to CC. Let me ask you this: those venues you wished were added on the schedule, did they help CC financially and became successful? Where's CC now?Quote:
Originally Posted by MDS
I don't see any point of yours other than hoping CC is still around.
I agree. At least you start to wonder the difference of what was and what is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miatanut
....well, I know how you feel. You just wished it was the IRL who's gonna join CC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miatanut
I don't know what you're talking about and I bet no matter what Gurney or Miatanut says, TG will eventually look out for his own interests.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miatanut
First, I was too young during the "you suck" days. I agree, hard to find any joy in that. The name USAC alone doesn't sound right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miatanut
Actually I'm wishing it could be more like NASCAR, which has a presence in 11 of the top 20 markets, including six of the top seven. Adverstisers really like factoids like that when it comes to spending $7 to $14 millionQuote:
Originally Posted by Cart750hp
MDS, yes, I CAN deny they "whiffed" on the schedule release. Of the events on the schedule, the weakest is Homestead and it's going to the end to try to spice it up. All are independently promoted -- no self-promotes, track rentals or co-promotes. It was announced in July, giving teams plenty of time to put programs together with potential sponsors if they can. None of the races appear to be "fluff," like an Ansan or a Zhuhai.
If they didn't grant you, in your wisdom, the bankrupt CC venues you desired, we're going to hafta agree to disagree and you're going to hafta just deal with it in your own way.
The Meadowlands course was miserable, so bad that in the first race there, Luyendyk went on a runoff, wound up in a parking lot and had to ask directions to get back on course DURING THE RACE. It lasted a couple years, then course and promoter changed to no avail. Whatever attendance and sponsorship it had for the first year or two didn't hold up and didn't hold up to raised sanction fees. CART bragged about being in NYC. Attendance, who knows? There weren't a great number of seats.
Cleveland was a novelty, the first for CART on an airport course and was a leader in its own right. If, for no other reason, the track doctor, Dr. Virginia Ellis, developed what came to be known as the "MR-10," a golf cart built with room for a gurney and life-saving gear to use on pit road, something quite common now. However, attendance was ALWAYS overplayed and that caught up quite quickly with the sanction-fee demands of CART Chairman John Frasco. After IMG, which has its HQ in Cleveland, tried it for a few years, it just gave promoter rights back to CART because it wasn't worth the trouble, same as it did with Detroit. Although it may be the only road course in the world (outside of perhaps Edmonton) where a fan could see the whole track, and the FASTEST road course on the CART/CC schedule, it hit the financial ceiling rather quickly and went downhill in the pocketbook for a long, long time.
Have you looked at the schedule? Watkins Glen, Infineon, Homestead, St. Pete, Infineon, Edmonton and likely Tornoto are all money losers. Chicago and Kansas aren't promoted because there's no need since the hold NASCAR fans hostage to get them to buy tickets. Mid-Ohio and Motegi are Honda Company picnics. Milwaukee and Richmond are at best a marginally profitable. So that leaves what, Indy, Surfers and Iowa as profitable, healthy events?Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Moving Homestead to the fall a few weeks before the NASCAR finale is just moronic. The race was a boring affair in front of a bunch of Malboro smokers who got free tickets. How is making it the last race of the season any better?
I don't want the schedule to look more like Champ Car, I just want to be better and more exciting. Most ovals offer parade-style racing and courses like Watkins Glen and Mid-Ohio just don't create good racing with these cars, but I suppose as long mega-rich companies are willing to bleed cash to put them on you'll support it.
Yes, I've looked at the schedule, and we should just agree to disagree.
I don't believe you understand the profit picture at many of these venues. St. Petersburg, for example, didn't happen until EVERYTHING was in place, a deal with the city, enough sponsorship to carry the load, etc. Mid-Ohio wasn't added until sponsorship was put together with Honda so that the whole deal made financial sense. This event WASN'T a "Hey, we're going to Zhuhai and 500 million Chinese are gonna care."
Whether NASCAR fans are "held hostage" or most of them go to enjoy the IRL race is a matter of opinion at Kansas and Chicago. You don't see the crowds going down at either place.
I'll give you that Homestead doesn't draw well for much of anything. BUT those "free" tickets for Marlboro are PAID FOR by Marlboro and sponsorships are in place for the race.
Richmond attendance continues to grow and the bank down there has stuck with its sponsorship. Milwaukee is different in that it's traditional but you never know what the fair board is going to do or what promoter you might be dealing with AND this was the first year of a single series.
Again, we'll just hafta agree to disagree. We're extremely far apart on our views.