Was Lewis passing Heikki legal?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rosco1

Comparing this to Austria 02/brazil 07 is like comparing a Cessna to a 747...

---

Or Tupperware to Meissen Chrystal. :p :

Everyone should stop whinging. There was little to no complaint in Brazil '07, just like there was little to no complaint in Germany '08.

So don't complain about it!

Well, I've provided as much logical input to this discussion as I possibly can, and having read logical as well as non-logical arguments from those who contributed here, I think it's time for me to move on.

So, I'll bid adieu to this thread!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tamburello

Time and time again you've been asked to substantiate your claims.

---

What is your point? What "claim" are you on about this time?

I voted no.

I would much rather the FIA play delayed audio of the events leading to the team mates pass to the audience.

If we allow team orders back, we will risk claims of race fixing in certain scenarios.

Can we not just allow common sense to prevail?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Knock-on

Whatch that chip doesn't fall off your shoulder and crush a toe ;)

---

Thats why I wear steel toecaps :D Never know when you gonna need them :p :

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

You need help :eek:

---

You sound like my wife :p :

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

What is your point? What "claim" are you on about this time?

---

You know full well which claims I'm referring to.

You are no saint when it comes to posting stuff which you cannot substantiate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tamburello

You know full well which claims I'm referring to.

---

No I don't, which is why I asked the question but if you're referring to the claim that Heikki was pissed at the "team order" then that was not my claim. I merely said I would reserve judgement on that as I had not seen it reported and no link has been given.

In the light of Ron Dennis's reported comments on the subject, and the fact that the FIA have access to all team radio communications and have taken no action, I don't think that is unreasonable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mstillhere

You know what? Juist remeber that these things go both ways. And since what goes around comes around I can't wait to see what you are going to say when Ferrari is going to do the same. I already know that you are going to flip flop and start ranting how Ferrari is unfair, and all that trash. Just be man enough to remember what you say and stick to your story. That' all I have to say.

---

for the record I can say I won't mind any team orders from any team as long as it isn't done on the Austria 2002 fashion

so I'm on my whole right to tell everyone here, shut up and stop whining :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

No I don't, which is why I asked the question but if you're referring to the claim that Heikki was pissed at the "team order" then that was not my claim. I merely said I would reserve judgement on that as I had not seen it reported and no link has been given.

In the light of Ron Dennis's reported comments on the subject, and the fact that the FIA have access to all team radio communications and have taken no action, I don't think that is unreasonable.

---

I know that those were not your claims, and you are right to reserve judgement in this matter.

But that hasn't stopped you before from jumping the gun, which is why I believe your childish 'pot-kettle-black' link in response to Ioan was unwarranted and not just a tad bit unreasonable.

Fangio benefitted from team orders in the 50s
Andretti benefitted from team orders at Lotus in 1978
Jones benefitted from team orders at Williams in 1980/81
Hakkinen benefitted from team orders at McLaren in 1998
Schumacher benefitted from team orders at Ferrari in 2002
Hamilton benefitted from team orders at McLaren in 2008

Surprisingly, most forumers seem to consider that the 2002 case "brought the sport into disrepute" while all the others didn't. Interesting standards :rolleyes:

(by the way, I was really annoyed with the Austria 02 episode, and in fact looking for a place to complain is that I found these forums; I was annoyed by that, and also by all the other team order episodes I mention)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mstillhere

I think everyone noticed how Heikki moved over and let Lewis get by fairly easily. I also noticed how NOBODY was horrified and did not screem bloody murder about this episod. I mean, we all know that that was team order. Heikki was told to move over and let Lewis get by and he did. The media has not said anything about it. And yes there was an embarassing silence when the commentators saw that taking place and then conveniently said nothing. Are you McLaren fans really at peace with yourselves and with your hypocritical interest in F1?

---

Nobody was horrified because it was sensible, and done in a reasonable manner.

And its NOT hypocritical, McLaren have always said they provide drivers with an equal shot of the championship. They've always kept that going. At Germany, only one driver has a shot at the championship, that driver was 0.7s a lap quicker, its called common sense letting them past eachother.

And the team did NOT tell Heikki to let Lewis past. As thats a team order. My understanding is that team radio is monitored, so if they had told him that they'd be punished. Its likely they told Heikki the situation, and common sense was applied and he let Lewis past.

done in a reasonable manner? You are not serious, are you? Banning team orders was ridicoluos, but since they are there, the McLaren drivers could at least have pretended that they were racing each other. The way Kovi gave up his position was a joke... but maybe he did it on purpose, because he was pissed off...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

And the team did NOT tell Heikki to let Lewis past. As thats a team order. My understanding is that team radio is monitored, so if they had told him that they'd be punished. Its likely they told Heikki the situation, and common sense was applied and he let Lewis past.

---

You seem to have a lot of privileged information. And, my understanding is that radio transmission are monitored ONLY if the team agrees to it. I recall reading that whenever McLaren and Ferrari - not Renault - have some thing to say to their pilots, they can shield their communications keeping what they say secret. Besides, as you could see on tv, RD might have simply pushed a button without saying a word to let Kova know about his whishes. As far as hypocrisy, we would not be here talking about this subject if it would not have been for all the outrage at Ferrari's tactics and then flip floppin on the same issue as soon as McLaren does that. We have to make sure that in this sport NOBODY wins as a result of an unfair davantage. And if Lewis was so much faster than his team mate he did not need any help to pass Kova. After all he passed Massa pretty easily and Piquet too, and they are not his team mates. Of course since now team orders are helping McLaren, we should drop the subject and stop whining. McLaren's fans want their team to win very bad (understandibly so after so many years of draught) and therefore they are not that interested in the team orders issue. Of course any other team, especially Ferrari, is strictly bound to them.
And as I said before what goes around comes around. So, be prepared.

I don't normally post on the F1 pages, but I do watch quite a bit of F1.

One thing that I am surprised that no one has brought up is this. What if Heikki was in a Renault let's say. Lewis comes flying up behind him, he's clearly faster and Flav says "let him buy so he doesn't screw up our race, or we get in a crash". Would that be wrong? I don't thinks so. It happens all the time, and no one seems to think anything about it.

That is sort of how I see this situation. It's way different than when Rubens was clearly faster that MS, but was told to pull over

it's my impression that the FIA regulates the Radio communication between the Teams and the Driver and Heikki Kovalainen did the wise thing considering he was about 0.8-1 second slower than Lewis.

[quote="mstillhere"] And, my understanding is that radio transmission are monitored ONLY if the team agrees to it. [quote]

I don't think you have this quite right. My understanding is that the officials monitor all the team's radio communications.

Where the teams have a choice, is whether they open up their communications to the broadcasters so that we (the fans) can hear what is being said.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mstillhere

You seem to have a lot of privileged information. And, my understanding is that radio transmission are monitored ONLY if the team agrees to it. I recall reading that whenever McLaren and Ferrari - not Renault - have some thing to say to their pilots, they can shield their communications keeping what they say secret. Besides, as you could see on tv, RD might have simply pushed a button without saying a word to let Kova know about his whishes. As far as hypocrisy, we would not be here talking about this subject if it would not have been for all the outrage at Ferrari's tactics and then flip floppin on the same issue as soon as McLaren does that. We have to make sure that in this sport NOBODY wins as a result of an unfair davantage. And if Lewis was so much faster than his team mate he did not need any help to pass Kova. After all he passed Massa pretty easily and Piquet too, and they are not his team mates. Of course since now team orders are helping McLaren, we should drop the subject and stop whining. McLaren's fans want their team to win very bad (understandibly so after so many years of draught) and therefore they are not that interested in the team orders issue. Of course any other team, especially Ferrari, is strictly bound to them.
And as I said before what goes around comes around. So, be prepared.

---

I pretty certain your understanding is wrong.

I understand TV broadcasts can listen in is optional, but team radio by race stewards is not. They have access to it if need be. If you can provide me with link suggesting otherwise I'll retract my understanding.

"We have to make sure that in this sport NOBODY wins as a result of an unfair davantage"

If thats what you want - your watching the wrong sport mate - watch a sport where all the cars are identical :)

I didn't see any outrage when Ferrari used 'team orders' in Brazil last year - and that decided the outcome of the championship!!

I think you'll find its not a case of McLaren can use team orders and Ferrari can't. Its a case of give each driver an equal shot of the championship, when one has a clear advantage, if other car is in position to help, use common sense. As was applied at Germany this weekend by McLaren and Ferrari in Brazil last season.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

Yes it was, and with good reason.

How much crap did Ferrari get for using perfectly legal team orders in the early part of this century? The amount of rubbish thrown about on this forum alone was staggering. McLaren use a now illegal team order and nothing. Why is that?

I thought McLaren only used yeam orders when one driver was mathematically out of contention? Unless my maths are screwy Kovalainen is still in contention is he not? So McLaren can break their own golden rule and it's OK because McLaren are a "true" racing team unlike Ferrari who only care about winning to the detriment of the sport. :rolleyes:

For the record, I have absolutely no problem with McLaren using team orders. It's what's going to win them the WDC. Ferrari, assuming they get the car quick enough again, will be splitting points between two drivers. McLaren won't.

My problem is with the media and the fans on the forum who were so virulent in their condemnation of Ferrari being so quiet when McLaren do the same thing. If team orders are so bad then it doesn't matter what colour the cars are, does it?

---

I don't believe McLaren have said they ALWAYS wait for one car to be mathematically out of title race before deploying team orders.

They've said that in past when DC was in with half decent shot and Mika in thick of it. But I do believe they say they'll give each driver an equal shot of the title at beginning of every season.

"McLaren use a now illegal team order and nothing. Why is that?"

I don't think people have trouble with team orders if carried out with common sense - what they don't like is situations such as the MS days, e.g. Austria 02, or Rubens giving up his car to MS because MS didn't like feel of it, or MS having spare car at all races even at beginning of season etc.

Surely you can see the difference to using team orders in reasonable manner and to using them in manner Ferrari used them in the past?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mstillhere

I love to see the McLAren fans swinging and flip flopping one way and the other too as long as it is convenient for you. All your moralistic and ethical threads about how important it is for a driver to pass his own team mate out of pure sportmanship and fairness went strait into the garbage can. I have no idea how you can actually sit down at your computer and seroiusly write your hypocritical comments TOTALLY forgetting that just a couple of years ago you were just stating the opposite. I am frankly appaled. I have shown my ability, in one of my most recent threads - Ferrrai's stupidity- to call things for what they are. If Ferrrari does something stupid, I have no problem in critizing it. It they cheated I am the first denouncing my team and their wrong doing. Here, except for a couple of guys, I see a fanatical defence of the silver (only recently) bullets about their stealing, their bending of the rules (including Heikki and his refueling issue). Is it so hard for you guys TO HAVE A A STANDARD AND STICK TO IT? As far as your crediblity goes, you really loosing lots of it.
PS Here you find what RD said about it. It's just incredible the nerve he has. http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headline...21102741.shtml

---

Whats wrong with what RD said? He said no team orders were used, Heikki used common sense. He just saying what happened.

Whats your opinion on Jerez 97?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ioan

There was only one win taken away from Rubens, and he got at least one gifted to him by MS later on. So let's not exaggerate.

---

How often did MS team-mates move over for points and wins? Or how many times did he just take his team-mates car for no good reason. He had spare car at all races. His team-mates strategies were based around MS. The car was designed around his driving style. The whole team was around MS, with the other driver merely being part of the team to help MS win.

I'm not being funny, but never in recent F1 times have we seen a situation like this. And I don't think we ever will.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

How often did MS team-mates move over for points and wins?

---

Malaysia 1999. One more time than Hakkinen, for example, ever did.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

Or how many times did he just take his team-mates car for no good reason.

---

No good reason? Being the Number 1 in the team & wanting to win is not a good reason? Seems perfectly acceptable to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

His team-mates strategies were based around MS. The car was designed around his driving style. The whole team was around MS, with the other driver merely being part of the team to help MS win.

---

Well, that's because Ferrari had a distinct policy of basing their championship hopes around the one man who they knew could deliver.

Not taking advantage of that situation would have been professionally reckless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

I said ultimately ioan. :rolleyes:
Lewis went on to pass both Junior and Massa, while Kovi never looked like closing the gap to them.

The way I saw it, Kovi may have been able to hold Lewis up for, at the most, a couple of laps but Lewis would have passed him with no more difficulty than the way he passed Junior and Massa.

Of course you might have seen things differently.

---

Quite correct; however, RD was saying again, right before this race that it was team equality, no team orders,..yyayadda....if you do want a link, then go check out autosport.....

Before the season began Rd made it clear that Lewis was number one, then later still tries to say, team equality....now RD is praising HK for being quite a competitor :eek:

I don't mind the letting-the-teammate-pass thing, but I hate it when the trailing driver drives a little slower to slow the pack down and let the leader get way ahead.

I voted yes because there is no way to police them. I recall mika salo had is only chance to win a F1 race scuttled by team orders. If I were Mika I would have just kept the pedal to the metal. But Massa and RB have made a lot of Dinero bending over!!

and in the same vein Irvine had his chance at the WDC scuttled by the team losing a wheel. End of the day team-orders are going to be there, the important thing is that they are done in such a way that they don't cause embarrasment - Schumi/Barrichello only became a serious issue because of the way in which it was done, there are times when a second driver should scoot over if they are not going to be able to properly compete and are going to merely hold up a faster team-mate; having said that if a driver is in first and slower than his team-mate it's questionable whether he should move aside..............team is getting maximum manufacturer/team points so i'd be arguing that it is a case of show your greater speed and get past urself

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mstillhere

The opposite is also true. Do you have any proof they did not do it? Because it sure looks like they did. Anyway just remeber to stick to you story when the opposite will happen.

---

No, I don't have any proof that McLaren did not use team orders. But I'm not the one seeing black helicopters. In my neck of the woods, when making a charge, it's up to the accuser/prosecution to prove guilt. The accused doesn't have to prove innocence or anything else. And without proof, why would the FIA or the media or anyone else be wound up? Later in this thread, you go on to say: "I mean, we all know that that was team order. Heikki was told to move over and let Lewis get by and he did. The media has not said anything about it."

I'll ask again, what is it that all of us know? And how do you know this? Maybe you have some pals at News of the World who would back you on this. But no, with no more proof than you seem to have, what (responsible) media outlet would print your conspiracy theory as fact? Heikki clearly let Lewis by. But you don't know whether it was because someone from McLaren told him to or if he did it on his own. He was going to get by Heikki anyway, so why hold the guy up?! What would be gained?

This isn't the IRL. Most drivers in F1 do have enough "big picture racing sense" to do the smart thing, without having to be told to do so by their teams.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior

No, I don't have any proof that McLaren did not use team orders. But I'm not the one seeing black helicopters. In my neck of the woods, when making a charge, it's up to the accuser/prosecution to prove guilt. The accused doesn't have to prove innocence or anything else. And without proof, why would the FIA or the media or anyone else be wound up? Later in this thread, you go on to say: "I mean, we all know that that was team order. Heikki was told to move over and let Lewis get by and he did. The media has not said anything about it."

I'll ask again, what is it that all of us know? And how do you know this? Maybe you have some pals at News of the World who would back you on this. But no, with no more proof than you seem to have, what (responsible) media outlet would print your conspiracy theory as fact? Heikki clearly let Lewis by. But you don't know whether it was because someone from McLaren told him to or if he did it on his own. He was going to get by Heikki anyway, so why hold the guy up?! What would be gained?

This isn't the IRL. Most drivers in F1 do have enough "big picture racing sense" to do the smart thing, without having to be told to do so by their teams.

---

That McLaren are desperate and would do anything to win is proven by what they did last year. I am sure we can agree on that. That McLaren specifically said to Kova: "Hey Kova let Lewis get by now otherwise no refuel for you" is also not proven. However, that McLAren has said something in that vein: "Hey Kova, guess what? Lewis is way faster than you and.....he is right behind you" RD himself and his engineers said that that happened. Actually from one of their interviews it transpires that Kova was not too happy about that "guess what" message. Now it's a matter for you to connect the dots. If you want to of course. As far as I am concerned we don't get to establish the rules. The rules are rules. And it does not matter if Lewis is faster, if it's the very last lap, and so on. But you know..let me do this...I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU. How's that? Just remember though, since what goes around comes around, don't flip flop when it's going to be Ferrari doing the same thing, ok? Although Although for some people what Ferrari does is always not right because....hum.....whatever,,,,right.....
PS Hey, you heard? Hamilton's car is being inspected by the FIA. Coincidence?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mstillhere

That McLaren are desperate and would do anything to win is proven by what they did last year. I am sure we can agree on that. That McLaren specifically said to Kova: "Hey Kova let Lewis get by now otherwise no refuel for you" is also not proven. However, that McLAren has said something in that vein: "Hey Kova, guess what? Lewis is way faster than you and.....he is right behind you" RD himself and his engineers said that that happened. Actually from one of their interviews it transpires that Kova was not too happy about that "guess what" message. Now it's a matter for you to connect the dots. If you want to of course. As far as I am concerned we don't get to establish the rules. The rules are rules. And it does not matter if Lewis is faster, if it's the very last lap, and so on. But you know..let me do this...I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU. How's that? Just remember though, since what goes around comes around, don't flip flop when it's going to be Ferrari doing the same thing, ok? Although Although for some people what Ferrari does is always not right because....hum.....whatever,,,,right.....
PS Hey, you heard? Hamilton's car is being inspected by the FIA. Coincidence?

---

Quote:

---

"The only thing we do is advise our drivers of the respective pace of the other driver," he said. "They ultimately call it.

"Lewis was nearly one second quicker and when he was told Lewis was quicker he just let him past. It was a tremendous sporting gesture," Dennis added. Referring to Kovalainen, he continued: "He knew that was the only way because the longer he would have held up Lewis the more difficult it would have been for him to have regained the lead. It's what being in a racing team is about. "True team-mates do these things because that's the way they are," said Ron Dennis.

---

When I give orders, I am very clear about what I expect to happen and when. The problem here is that some fans don't seem to know the difference between an order and at best, a vague implication.

Whether it's McLaren, Ferrari or BMW, if one of the team drivers has shown the field his backside all day, and the other is not on his pace, I would expect the lead driver to NOT make it a time consuming exercise for the faster car to get past him. No matter the team, I don't have a problem with that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior

When I give orders, I am very clear about what I expect to happen and when. The problem here is that some fans don't seem to know the difference between an order and at best, a vague implication.

Whether it's McLaren, Ferrari or BMW, if one of the team drivers has shown the field his backside all day, and the other is not on his pace, I would expect the lead driver to NOT make it a time consuming exercise for the faster car to get past him. No matter the team, I don't have a problem with that.

---

The problem , actually , is that fans DO know the difference .

It was an order , essentially because no driver wants to be seen by his team as holding the team back .

For the record , I don't have a problem with team orders , but rather with the rule banning them .

The fans , the announcers , and I'm sure the FIA saw team orders , but , because they were "vague" , they were allowed .
That's just stupid .

Stupid , stupid , stupid rule .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bagwan

The problem , actually , is that fans DO know the difference.

---

Apparently some don't.

Quote:

---

It was an order , essentially because no driver wants to be seen by his team as holding the team back.

---

Essentially nothing. That's not an order.

Let's say I'm the VP of Operations at your company. I call you on Monday and tell you that one of your supervisors certainly is a screw up and I have no use for him... and that's all I say. Have I ordered you to fire that person? You don't want to hold the team back, do you? So you fire him. But that would all be on your shoulders. I have not ORDERED you to do anything.

An order is a superior telling you to do something. It is not based on a desire to do what's right for the team.

What the FIA saw was a slower driver allowing a faster driver an easy pass. What reason would Heikki have had to hold up someone who was going to pass him anyway? Short of proof that he was ORDERED to do that, there is no proof of team orders. And yes, I'd say the exact same thing if it was Ferrari, BMW or Force India!

Heiki said afterward that he was unhappy because they didn't let him fight, still people say it wasn't an order from the team! :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bagwan

The fans , the announcers , and I'm sure the FIA saw team orders , but , because they were "vague" , they were allowed .
That's just stupid .

Stupid , stupid , stupid rule .

---

I agree with that

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior

When I give orders, I am very clear about what I expect to happen and when. The problem here is that some fans don't seem to know the difference between an order and at best, a vague implication.

Whether it's McLaren, Ferrari or BMW, if one of the team drivers has shown the field his backside all day, and the other is not on his pace, I would expect the lead driver to NOT make it a time consuming exercise for the faster car to get past him. No matter the team, I don't have a problem with that.

---

When you give orders is because you are supposed to and I am sure you don't give orders that are against the rules, right? And so on............I don't like to repeat myself.....

The thread title: "Was Lewis Passing Heikki Legal?"

Six pages of fluff that tries to prove that it was not, just because "we know".

http://www.unexplainedstuff.com/imag...03_img0663.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior

The thread title: "Was Lewis Passing Heikki Legal?"

Six pages of fluff that tries to prove that it was not, just because "we know".

http://www.unexplainedstuff.com/imag...03_img0663.jpg

---

:rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ioan

Heiki said afterward that he was unhappy because they didn't let him fight, still people say it wasn't an order from the team! :rolleyes:

---

That's all well and good but where was his 'fight' in the rest of the race? Why was he 0.5s slower than Hamilton during the race? Why could he not make similar progress through the field?

Saying that he was not allowed to fight Hamilton rather puts the spotlight on those kind of questions.

Ron Dennis says today that Hamilton does not need the help of HK to win the title....nice Ron, then why the hell did he pull over at the hairpin?

Sure Hamilton is faster than Heikki but lets not say that Heikki did not help him in Germany. He did.

If they had been let to do battle, I am sure Lewis would have passed him anyways so its a moot point.

Oh Ron "integrity" Dennis can't stop making himself look like an idiot.

I saw that article yesterday on autosport.com, I decided however not to bring it up myself.