Becoming condos most likely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Toymaker
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Becoming condos most likely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Toymaker
I really don't like the balance of that schedule nor the fact it doesn't have a fall portion. Similar tracks come in bunches with the beginning and end of the season road/street centric with a large contingent of ovals in the middle. The opening being at St. Pete is also very low key. Miami may not be able to draw fans (for anything), but a season opening night race is a great idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Osiris333
Cleveland still has a chance to get on the schedule in 2010. Though that will probably be their final chance before the bulldozers come.
Rumors have it that Homestead will be the season ending race btw.
That's why they're walking away now. If Burke isn't going to be there in a couple of years, it really doesn't make sense to give it a date over other tracks.Quote:
Originally Posted by -Helix-
I know Pikes Peak will not make the 2009 schedule but since I only live 7 miles from the track and the only thing that ICS took away was the one infield scoring pilon other than that everything else is their including the kellygreen bleachers. Maybe this track could make the 2011 or 12 schedule. I would think the IRL would like to have venue in the Rocky Mtn states.
For Cleveland, AGAIN, to have a race, there must be a promoter who desires several million dollars to risk organizing one. Promoters in the past there have come, lost and gone. How hard is that to understand?
Dude Pikes Peak is in the middle of nowhere. Indycar needs to have a more urban focus, become the hot racing series of the younger crowd. Like UFC for racing or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by ezhop7
can I reprepose this question today.....ICQuote:
Originally Posted by Ken
Cleveland, Cleveland, Cleveland, that's all anyone wants to talk about. Don't get me wrong I liked that track as much or more than a lot of the other ones. But there are two things standing in it's way of being back on the schedule.
#1 is the probability of Burke not being there much longer. Why go there just to have your track/airport torn down in a year or two.
#2 is the fact that no one goes there. Did you see the crowd at Mid-Ohio? I have no idea what the numbers were, but it sure looks to be quite a bit more than Cleveland in the last few years.
So why give up a venue that is well attended for one that isn't, and probably won't be around much longer
Ken,
1. I agree. There are more road courses on the schedule.
2. I disagree. After the disasters in San Jose and Las Vegas, I do not believe that cities are just chomping at the bit to get races. I do not believe there are many promoters out there who will chance it, either. Because of increased expenses and fewer seats, those races make less than a permanent facility can make.
I won't be too surprised at the schedule when it's announced today. All the forum talk about Cleveland, Houston, Portland, Road America and other previous CC sites are peeing into the wind. Those were all financial losers and aren't high up on the list. I agree that Homestead should be the next oval to go, but with SMI and ISC owning bunches of ovals out there, the deals for dates could be made without us even understanding why.
you continue to ignore TG part in this...Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
exactly why are you confident he will make right/solid decisions
sounds like NH and Vegas wanted races....
?
I think it's a great choice from TG by adding only two races from CC (Long Beach and Toronto) cause all the venue they have actually are great. Just a bit sad not to see Nashville back in '09
Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
and look at the lead-in to INDY..
2 street coarses and Kansas..
I have no problem with Kansas....but if it's on the duece (or worse!)
have I not been preaching the pre-indy lead-in for years?
how does Tony expect to build any momentum?.....
preserving and protecting the I500!?
Ken, what's to ignore or not ignore about TG?
My confidence in TG or lack of same wasn't involved in your question of me. As far as solid decisions, he will probably make some you agree with and I don't and some I will agree with and you don't.
As for Vegas and Loudon, we don't know how things might be working. Time has passed by long enough to try Loudon again, certainly, but maybe the schedule didn't work out for either the IRL or Loudon this time. Vegas? When CC had truck racing fans walk out en masse for their races at LVMS and its promoter poured millions down the drain for a street race there, I'd guess the timing might not be quite right for either the promoter or the IRL....the waters are poisoned there right now.
Ken,
Answering your second post, teams throughout the past 30-40 years have not wanted to run too much before Indy because they tear up equipment and start Indy "behind" fixing cars. That caught up with Galles a few years ago when he destroyed three of his cars at Atlanta two weeks before the track opened at Indy and never caught up to be competitive in May.
That's the double-edged sword that comes with races before Indy. As to TV, I have no idea how that's going to shake out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
for the last 8 years ypu and I have been posting together you have hammered everything CC related...from TV to venues to teams drivers and cars....from pook to forsythe to gentilozzi
and you now that we have one series headed by Tony George ask "what's to ignore or not ignore'?
too that I say: Bad Form! :(
Bad form? Many people in the paddock and on the forums wanted one series. Now they have one. No, they're not going to please everybody, with any schedule they put together or anything else. Some will hate TG forever just on their built-up 'tudes. Yes, we sparred a lot over CART and CC. But you were posting one thing and trying to drag me into a TG discussion with another. That could be considered "bad form."
yep bad form...Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
were down to 1 series...with Tg as the leader..
and after all these years you still give him a pass......your not even willing to discuss his part in this sport we love so much......past or present
at some point your going to have to acknowledge his presence
The Emperor’s New Suit
by
Hans Christian Andersen
(1837)
ANY, many years ago lived an emperor, who thought so much of new clothes that he spent all his money in order to obtain them; his only ambition was to be always well dressed. He did not care for his soldiers, and the theatre did not amuse him; the only thing, in fact, he thought anything of was to drive out and show a new suit of clothes. He had a coat for every hour of the day; and as one would say of a king “He is in his cabinet,” so one could say of him, “The emperor is in his dressing-room.”
The great city where he resided was very gay; every day many strangers from all parts of the globe arrived. One day two swindlers came to this city; they made people believe that they were weavers, and declared they could manufacture the finest cloth to be imagined. Their colours and patterns, they said, were not only exceptionally beautiful, but the clothes made of their material possessed the wonderful quality of being invisible to any man who was unfit for his office or unpardonably stupid.
“That must be wonderful cloth,” thought the emperor. “If I were to be dressed in a suit made of this cloth I should be able to find out which men in my empire were unfit for their places, and I could distinguish the clever from the stupid. I must have this cloth woven for me without delay.” And he gave a large sum of money to the swindlers, in advance, that they should set to work without any loss of time. They set up two looms, and pretended to be very hard at work, but they did nothing whatever on the looms. They asked for the finest silk and the most precious gold-cloth; all they got they did away with, and worked at the empty looms till late at night.
“I should very much like to know how they are getting on with the cloth,” thought the emperor. But he felt rather uneasy when he remembered that he who was not fit for his office could not see it. Personally, he was of opinion that he had nothing to fear, yet he thought it advisable to send somebody else first to see how matters stood. Everybody in the town knew what a remarkable quality the stuff possessed, and all were anxious to see how bad or stupid their neighbours were.
“I shall send my honest old minister to the weavers,” thought the emperor. “He can judge best how the stuff looks, for he is intelligent, and nobody understands his office better than he.”
The good old minister went into the room where the swindlers sat before the empty looms. “Heaven preserve us!” he thought, and opened his eyes wide, “I cannot see anything at all,” but he did not say so. Both swindlers requested him to come near, and asked him if he did not admire the exquisite pattern and the beautiful colours, pointing to the empty looms. The poor old minister tried his very best, but he could see nothing, for there was nothing to be seen. “Oh dear,” he thought, “can I be so stupid? I should never have thought so, and nobody must know it! Is it possible that I am not fit for my office? No, no, I cannot say that I was unable to see the cloth.”
“Now, have you got nothing to say?” said one of the swindlers, while he pretended to be busily weaving.
“Oh, it is very pretty, exceedingly beautiful,” replied the old minister looking through his glasses. “What a beautiful pattern, what brilliant colours! I shall tell the emperor that I like the cloth very much.”
“We are pleased to hear that,” said the two weavers, and described to him the colours and explained the curious pattern. The old minister listened attentively, that he might relate to the emperor what they said; and so he did.
Now the swindlers asked for more money, silk and gold-cloth, which they required for weaving. They kept everything for themselves, and not a thread came near the loom, but they continued, as hitherto, to work at the empty looms.
Soon afterwards the emperor sent another honest courtier to the weavers to see how they were getting on, and if the cloth was nearly finished. Like the old minister, he looked and looked but could see nothing, as there was nothing to be seen.
“Is it not a beautiful piece of cloth?” asked the two swindlers, showing and explaining the magnificent pattern, which, however, did not exist.
“I am not stupid,” said the man. “It is therefore my good appointment for which I am not fit. It is very strange, but I must not let any one know it;” and he praised the cloth, which he did not see, and expressed his joy at the beautiful colours and the fine pattern. “It is very excellent,” he said to the emperor.
Everybody in the whole town talked about the precious cloth. At last the emperor wished to see it himself, while it was still on the loom. With a number of courtiers, including the two who had already been there, he went to the two clever swindlers, who now worked as hard as they could, but without using any thread.
“Is it not magnificent?” said the two old statesmen who had been there before. “Your Majesty must admire the colours and the pattern.” And then they pointed to the empty looms, for they imagined the others could see the cloth.
“What is this?” thought the emperor, “I do not see anything at all. That is terrible! Am I stupid? Am I unfit to be emperor? That would indeed be the most dreadful thing that could happen to me.”
“Really,” he said, turning to the weavers, “your cloth has our most gracious approval;” and nodding contentedly he looked at the empty loom, for he did not like to say that he saw nothing. All his attendants, who were with him, looked and looked, and although they could not see anything more than the others, they said, like the emperor, “It is very beautiful.” And all advised him to wear the new magnificent clothes at a great procession which was soon to take place. “It is magnificent, beautiful, excellent,” one heard them say; everybody seemed to be delighted, and the emperor appointed the two swindlers “Imperial Court weavers.”
The whole night previous to the day on which the procession was to take place, the swindlers pretended to work, and burned more than sixteen candles. People should see that they were busy to finish the emperor’s new suit. They pretended to take the cloth from the loom, and worked about in the air with big scissors, and sewed with needles without thread, and said at last: “The emperor’s new suit is ready now.”
The emperor and all his barons then came to the hall; the swindlers held their arms up as if they held something in their hands and said: “These are the trousers!” “This is the coat!” and “Here is the cloak!” and so on. “They are all as light as a cobweb, and one must feel as if one had nothing at all upon the body; but that is just the beauty of them.”
“Indeed!” said all the courtiers; but they could not see anything, for there was nothing to be seen.
“Does it please your Majesty now to graciously undress,” said the swindlers, “that we may assist your Majesty in putting on the new suit before the large looking-glass?”
The emperor undressed, and the swindlers pretended to put the new suit upon him, one piece after another; and the emperor looked at himself in the glass from every side.
“How well they look! How well they fit!” said all. “What a beautiful pattern! What fine colours! That is a magnificent suit of clothes!”
The master of the ceremonies announced that the bearers of the canopy, which was to be carried in the procession, were ready.
“I am ready,” said the emperor. “Does not my suit fit me marvellously?” Then he turned once more to the looking-glass, that people should think he admired his garments.
The chamberlains, who were to carry the train, stretched their hands to the ground as if they lifted up a train, and pretended to hold something in their hands; they did not like people to know that they could not see anything.
The emperor marched in the procession under the beautiful canopy, and all who saw him in the street and out of the windows exclaimed: “Indeed, the emperor’s new suit is incomparable! What a long train he has! How well it fits him!” Nobody wished to let others know he saw nothing, for then he would have been unfit for his office or too stupid. Never emperor’s clothes were more admired.
“But he has nothing on at all,” said a little child at last. “Good heavens! listen to the voice of an innocent child,” said the father, and one whispered to the other what the child had said. “But he has nothing on at all,” cried at last the whole people. That made a deep impression upon the emperor, for it seemed to him that they were right; but he thought to himself, “Now I must bear up to the end.” And the chamberlains walked with still greater dignity, as if they carried the train which did not exist.
I "give him a pass?" I'm sure he's not going to please either you or me or both of us or neither of us with every single decision that gets made by the IRL.
It seems obvious you don't have confidence in his leadership. Fine. Time will tell. All I know is, if I want to watch Indy cars, I hafta watch the IRL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
you do.....and had no trouble telling us all about pook and KK..
so tell me (us) why we should have confidence in TG's leadership...spicifically his ability to maintain a healthy mix of Venues on the schedule...
clearly he strayed from the original Vision...you can admit that can't you?
Edmonton, Toronto....Australia...midohio Belle isle....yet No Pheonix or MIS....and Vegas wanted to help pay for a season ending race THIS YEAR...
No, I had no trouble talking about Pook, KK or Gentilozzi. It was very easy to talk about them.
First of all, TG NEVER said there wouldn't be road courses on the IRL schedule. He said at the beginning that if those came, it would be in the distant future. It was.
"Healthy mix of road courses and ovals?" "Healthy" to some is not going to be healthy to others, so guess we like it, deal with it, hate it or go fishin'.
Phoenix and Michigan are very traditional tracks for Indy car racing. Phoenix and Michigan are owned by ISC, which has scheduled NASCAR races at both spring and fall and any date the IRL proposed would be shot down as too close to the NASCAR dates. It doesn't appear that the IRL and ISC have been able to strike a bargain for those two facilities.
Vegas? Maybe down the road. But after two CC track rentals in which the fans walked out after a truck race and the disaster downtown last year, it's a bit too close in time to expect anything close to what was there to be successful out there.
And he was right most of the time. He said that the business model that CCWS was using was not self sustainable, he was correct. He said that the "inflated attendance shell game" would play itself out soon enough and cities/promoters would start to bail (they did). He said the series that held Indy would be the last one standing, he was right. I could give you another 15 examples and you know it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken
Almost everything that those of us who didn't belong to CW told you three years ago was going to happen, did in fact, come true. Perhaps IC's words now should carry some weight. If he's not ragging on every little detail about how the IRL is being run it's probably because he doesn't feel he needs to. The basic plan is solid.
Hope you don't mind me speaking for you IC. : ).
Quote:
Originally Posted by downtowndeco
problem is the IRL is facing the same problems and headed down the same road...
no Title sponsor..
Venue and scheduling problems
TV problems
spec series...
Mego teams and have nots
ride buyers
etc etc
Yup, still looking for a title sponsor. Even NASCAR is feeling the pinch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken
Schedule problems? Not in my eyes. A tight schedule or a nice variety of tracks.
TV problems? We'll see how that plays out.
Spec series? Not a problem in my opinion.
Big teams small teams? That's true from Formula Ford all the way up to F1.
Ride buyers? See last answer.
"They were not interested in New Hampshire and only wanted to run the club-racing road course at Las Vegas instead of one of the most outstanding oval tracks in the country. We're weren't prepared to accept that," Gossage said.
hmmm
Quote:
Originally Posted by downtowndeco
it's not Nascar.....it's anchored by the holy grail of all auto racing
scheduling problems....se my last post and the fact it's no longer what it was suppossed to be 'oval centric'
spec.....your in the minority....by a long shot
agreed.....but that goes against the very foundation of the IRL
agreed....but the ride buyers aren't young american short trackers....again ...remember the original premise
Ken,
Yep, no title sponsor. Yet. How long has the series been combined? Since February. When are budgets set? The previous August.
Venue and scheduling problems? EVERY series has venue and scheduling situations, not necessarily problems, when you combine what the track needs, what the sanctioning body needs, what TV needs, what the teams need logistically, etc. The IRL announced a full schedule of 18 races. Period. No one will ever know how much motion it took to get there.
What TV problems? One story in the Sports Business Journal? Is the SBJ ahead or behind? Will they be resolved? My guess is, they will be.
Spec series? They just had a manufacturers meeting for the future. I think they're going about this very correctly. If they changed specs immediately, that would mean ex-CC teams would have had to buy new equipment three years in a row. The IRL is keeping as it is for now so its teams stay afloat. They didn't just jam a DP-01 or a COT down the throats of the teams and obsolete, in the COT's case, 700 stock cars.
Big teams/small teams? Had a lot of different winners this year and had some good runs by smaller teams to good finishes. And, as dd said, name a series that DOESN'T have big teams and small teams.
Ride buyers? Did you expect that to instantly stop?
And the Vegas road course? I heard it entered the discussions, but was quickly dismissed. Eddie's right.
This ain't a microwave.
i heard once coke was going to be the title sponsor, i guess not now, i havent heard anything on that now adays,
so everything gets reset as of Feb 2008?Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
They have full fields due to no competition and they're not trying to push euro-style formula down the throats of a continent that isn't all that interesting in that brand of racing, so I don't think they're facing the same kinds of problems that Champ Car did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken
After over a decade of tearing everything apart for the sake of who sets of egos, they have something to prove to a sponsor. Money is also tight.Quote:
no Title sponsor.
And you expect a magic wand to be waved and the schedule turn out exactly how you want it? A schedule is a complex thing that involves a lot of accountants and lawyers. You also have the added complication that the France family now owns the Penske tracks.Quote:
Venue and scheduling problems.
Networks are a busy, not a public service. Make ESPN more money and they're going to give you a better deal.Quote:
TV problems.
For now. If you can convince Cosworth and Panoz to update their IRL stuff to the latest rules, be my guest. If not, we're stuck for a couple of years with what we have until the new package which will not be spec.Quote:
spec series...
And in what part of AOWR history has there not been? Penske, Ganassi, Green, and Newman-Haas have been dominating for many years. Spec or no spec, the teams with the best people will rise to the top.Quote:
Mego teams and have nots
Happen everywhere with the smaller. less financially secure teams.Quote:
ride buyers
In a way, yes. You can't snap your fingers and make everything perfect. A lot of work has to be done, and believe it or not, that takes time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken
Those who were/are strong supporters of either side need to keep in mind that AOWR has often succeeded in spite of itself, not because of any great leadership.
The IRL "victory" in this war gets down to two things:
-1. The complete and utter failure of CART/CCWS to get their act together and #2 The fact that the IRL had the Indy 500.
I do not think the IRL plan has been any more effective than the CCWS plan - it is just that the owner of the IRL had more personal commitment to the long term and perhaps a willingness to spend more money.....
So to the victor go the spoils - but lets not fool ourselves - the IRL is not a whole heck of a lot better than CCWS was... I said many times before unification that I thought the time had already passed for either side to survive the war and I think the jury is still out as to whether or not the IRL survives and thrives or just reverts back to the USAC mentality that the only paved race that mattered was the Indy 500... in which case we are just waiting for the next "white paper" from the next Dan Gurney.....
In the meantime, I am more than willing to give the IRL a chance and I have no real problems with the schedule - it is a good transitional schedule - but more and better needs to come in future years (and I believe there is an effort to get better - but I also think there are many with influence who would gladly see a return to the USAC days and ways....
There wasn't any victory, we all lost big time. The only victory here is that we're no longer fighting amongst ourselves.
Boy, I really doubt that one, Ken. Better than Coos Bay, but......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken
I want some of what he is smokin'. :s mokin:
Gary
probably more Palm springs then belle isle....
but the problem is these cities seem more interested than the viable ovals....or is it the other way around....Vegas and NH..
ah...so confusing
How so? The "original vision" was to create a series that provided teams to use their Indianapolis-style race cars in other events throughout a season involving the main spectacle of American Open Wheel Racing - the Indy 500.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken
Has he strayed from that? The 500 is still the biggest event on the calender, and there is a schedule of other events for teams to use their Indianapolis-style race cars.
All the open-wheel war was about was a shift in power. Tony was looking out for his own race and wanted power, the CART guys foolishly thought they could run an AOWR series without the Indy 500. They were successful for a while, but Tony eventually proved his point and was rewarded with being the new "head-of-state" of American Open Wheel.
I don't like Tony any more than the next guy, but I find it hard to hate him purely for taking advantage of our capitalist society. That's what life is about isn't it? Trying to get what you want, wanting more than everyone else? At least in America anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Helix-
anything is acceptable........isn't it