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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSH
Nah, I'm done. There is no point trying to argue this any further. Despite the protestations to the contrary, anthonyvpop obviously still can't get over the fact that ChampCar is gone. Some of us have moved on, some of us can't.
Gary
anthonyvop, what did you expect to happen over three months? The cow to jump over the moon? With "blendification," several things in the marketing area have ALREADY happened, namely Firestone sponsorship of the Indy Lights series, Coke and Peak and several others jumping on board, Firestone putting up $50,000 to the last qualifier for the "500", Red Gold putting up $10,000 to the driver with the fastest qualifying lap at Indy on the last day, full fields of cars for the races, etc.
Because my subscription was canceled, I can't read it at AR1 but I understand there's a statement there that ex-CC people are poo-pooing ethanol, which has become a fuel and car sponsor in the IRL. I haven't read ANYWHERE else where ANYONE has poo-pooed ethanol as a fuel in the garage area and no names have been mentioned ANYWHERE, so that's, IMO, just black helicopter nonsense.
If you're going to put the IRL in a fishbowl, go ahead and do it. But in three months, Dallara, Honda, Firestone, the IRL and even teams have pitched in to make blendification work, get some equipment into the hands of the CC teams to get them going, sponsors signed, new website features unveiled and races run and that required all of racing's big kids pulling together to make it happen.
So everything wasn't (and quite probably couldn't) have been changed at once. Perhaps (and more than likely) the CW jihad will not be the guiding light behind the series and its ideologies will NOT be adopted. So, I'm afraid you can just beller and tap your foot because I don't think you'll like ANYTHING that is done, and like other CW mainstays, be like the Japanese soldiers found wandering around small islands in the Pacific in the '50s, rifles still in hand, because no one told them the war was over.
His name, I believe, was Sanguin San.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
I think some are still upset because not only did CC fail once but it went BK TWO times. You can't get a much more solid proof than that that CC wasn't all it was cracked up to be. TG (supossedly an idiot) was the last one left standing, almost all of the CC teams left CC for the IRL, the IRL now has LB on it's schedule & this year there was honest to god bumping and excitement on bump day.Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
Yeah, it's gotta hurt to be a dead ender. I understand why they are lashing out. Me? I'm enjoying every moment of the racing this year with a smile on my face.
Simple Tony George, like him or hate him has the one card that actually matters. Some of us accept this and move forward with what we have.Quote:
Originally Posted by downtowndeco
TV rating were up 25% for 3rd round qualifying and 50% for bump day.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
And maybe last year everyone was searching for IndyCar come the 500, this year they already know what it is?Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig
Is that first weekend rainout numbers? I see Ben posted the weekend 2 TV increases. As I said, it's this year's race that should mark the beginning of the growth trend, and really next year's numbers... Momentum is something you have to build. You don't judge Indy Car racing by the speed they are going 2 seconds from a dead stop.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
(IC - the ethanol article was fairly positive.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by downtowndeco
Just as we don't need the CCF crowd continuing to spout their venom against the ICS, we really don't need a lot of gloating at the outcome either. The only reason the idiot grandson, was left standing is he held the keys to 16th and Georgetown. (After all who else BUT an idiot would divide things to the point that the TV ratings fell through the floor and tickets went unsold etc. etc.)
Like I said to Anthony some of us have moved on, I can see some of the folks on both sides still can't. Sadly.
Gary
You respond to guys like him the way you want to, I will the way I want to. It makes the forum interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
Look love it, hate it, say whatever you want about it.... I'm fascinated by the denial some people love to stay in about where the IRL is, with stuff like this.
Quote:
tamburello
The new series only started in March......
Next year, maybe we could expect more coverage.
Arent you guys paying attention? The IRL is not 3 months old. It is 10 years old. It hasn't changed from 2007 to 2008. It isnt changing from 2008 to 2009. It is what it is. The more you HOPE for change that is not happening the more you are admitting the IRL and the 500 are not doing well at all and the death of CCWS has had no effect on that.Quote:
garyshell
Let's see the unification has been in place for just short of three months and the "experts" are already sure that the format is not working. This is the first Indy 500 since the unification. What are you expecting in the first year, a freakin' miracle?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCWS77
You did notice that there was unification that occurred three months ago right? With that in place there is now a chance that Madison Ave. will return to the fold and there actually might be some sponsor money floating around this time next year. Unfortunately it took the death of CCWS to make this happen. Madison Ave. had just about zero interest in a split in open wheel racing. Like it or not it is after all the sponsor money that will drive all changes. With their money comes advertising which hopefully will translate into more butts in seats and higher viewership on TV.
Gary
Gary, the only one here seems not to be able to get over the split is you!!!!!
Can't you drop it now. It's an old record your playing, if you still want a war take it out on NASCAR.
"Gloating"? Just trying to to put things in context. Maybe when people stop complaining that everything isn't perfect after just three months, maybe after people stop calling TG the "idiot grandson" & accept that there were more reasons for the IRL surviving than "TG held the keys to Indy" & more reasons to CC demise than "TG ruined everything" then I'll stop having to post about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
All Indy needs is 10 days.
You give Open Wheel fans an oportunity to take a 10 day vacation that would include pole day to race day you would find a renewed interest from the media and OW fans.
Gone are the days of the barn yard mechanic that made the I500 the only race of the year.
Hate to say this as I have "moved on", but the fact that TG could negotiate better TV contracts and has a huge bankroll behind him was all about having the keys to Indy.Quote:
Originally Posted by downtowndeco
Did Cart and Champ car make huge mistakes? No DUH! and that only helped the IRL out survive the Champ car. It's not like the IRL was growing.
Now the first news regarding TV ratings after the unification shows a huge increase, proving what most of us new the whole time. Theres not room for 2 OW series in the US.
That said, I agree. It's time to shorten the teams commitment for the month of may. Shorten the whole thing by a week would be my plan. I would drop the middle week after rookie orientation. Practice, then Pole day with Bump day the next day. In the event of rain on the weekend you have 4 more days to get it done prior to carb day.
JMHO
IMO you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. On one hand, you're saying the only reason the IRL outlasted CC was that TG had Indy & the money he generated by the event. On the other hand, you're saying Indy isn't that important and they should cut the event down by at least a week. The event is the reason the INDY Racing League exists, and that's the way it should be. Cheers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegasguy
This topic proves that there is still an American Open Wheel Split.
Those that love American Open Wheel Racing and those that love the I500.
AOWR IS the Indy 500. If you're more into street circuits or road courses there are have a dozen or more Eurocentric Series that should fit that bill.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike15
Last post for me on this thread.
You really think much money is generated that week? I saw little crowd activity on those days. The revenue is generated from Race Day, the City cashes in on Race Day, the scalpers cash in on Race Day. The rest of the month is simply expenses for the teams. Hotels, food, travel, fuel, rental cars etc.... I have traveled as part of a race team on numerous occasions and it is not cheap.Quote:
Originally Posted by downtowndeco
So you agree with me then, because you just proved my point here..... Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by downtowndeco
Without Indy, there would have been no USAC. Without Indy, there would have been no CART. Without Indy, there would have been no IRL. The more you try to diminish the Indianapolis 500, the more you try to diminish open wheel racing.
It is NOT still a split, IMO, between those who enjoy the "500" and those who enjoy other open-wheel races. It is a split between those who recognize the magnitude of the "500" and its importance and those who do not.
Starter, I have made that same point (adding supermodifieds) many times on these boards in response to the CART/CC jihad that coined the term "AOWR" for its preference of series. Obviously, I agree with you. But those who believe minimizing the Indianapolis 500 is going to build up other ICS races are about two bubbles off plumb, IMO.
BTW, at no time did I diminish the importance of Indy, I just think its a HUGE expense for the teams and could be shortened without impacting it in a negative way.
Obviously its huge, its the largest single day sporting event in the world.
The Brickyard 400 is number 2.... and it's 3 days.
Vegasguy, guess you had to live in Indy during the couple years they tried a two-week format back in the '90s. Nevermind the politics that got the idea on the board, but it SEVERELY diminished the magnitude of the race just in the eyes of people locally, for starters. People were wandering around Indy trying to say "month of May," for example, when it was no longer close to the month of May. It was bewildering, it was here and gone quickly and it was not the spectacle that got it to its previous status.
On another point, a good many teams are based in Indy, as a good many NASCAR teams are based in Charlotte. Indy is more of a "home game" than a "road trip" than any other race on the schedule in that vein.
Yes, things change. And maybe it's just my opinion. But when Leo Mehl left the IRL, so did the two-week program. Again, nobody, not a single person IN INDY who I talked to liked it. Or warmed to it. Or made money off it. Or enjoyed it at all. Even people I know at the track. It was already an option, it was tried briefly and it was unsuccessful. Maybe it'll be thought of again, maybe not. They might consider riding mechanics again. Who knows? But considering its failure, a two-week program would be a tall order to sell around these parts right now.
Indycool, I could see how the people of Indianapolis would be impacted as you said.... but the rest of the worlds fans would get over it pretty quick IMHO and the teams would save a ton. They have said so themselves in the past.
Now riding mechanics using the 2 person tubs hauling tools and parts..... pretty cool. ;-)
I think that a lot of good things have happened since unification, I think a lot of great things are coming down the pipeline. I hope they really do combine the best aspects of the 2 series and bring over more of the Loyal Champ car fans, it can only improve the series.
IMHO it would be almost criminal if they just left it as is because lets face it... it's not the product it could be or most want it to be.
I plan on giving it 3 yrs.
On a philosophical level, "the split" was never about a guy named Tony George or some organizations named IRL and CART. It was about if the city of Indianapolis and the Indy 500 was going to be the "racing capital", or if it was going to be a part of a larger series just like all the other races. Tony George said as much. That is obvioulsy what they are selling when thier slogan is "I am Indy" and it says "racing capital" on huge signs in Indy.
So after a decade of fighting about it Tony is in control but is the matter really settled? It is easy to say "the split" was the cause of the downward spiral of the sport but it remains to be seen if this status quo is actually healthy. There are plenty of reasons why putting one venue on a pedestal is bad for the sport. We have the city and those who live in the region using a prestigous one day race as a means to generate an economic boost for a whole month - at the expense of the teams and the rest of the sport.
This is the essence of the split. Worship Indy or be gone you are banished to Europe or something. It isnt over at all! What's more is it was created in Indianaoplis and it is so disingenuous to act like it was fans of rival, now vanquished series that caused it. Saying our race is the best, this is the racing capital, the whole schedule should bend to our will, all other tracks and cities should declare "We are Indy", the championship winner barely matters next to this race winner....it is just astounding arrogance and IMHO a house of cards that, now that the scapegoat of CCWS is out of the picture, will come tumbling down eventually of its own accord.Quote:
AOWR IS the Indy 500. If you're more into street circuits or road courses there are have a dozen or more Eurocentric Series that should fit that bill.
Nope. Somebody else would have stepped forward and started a major formula series.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
That is like saying without Apple there never would have been personal computers.
Or mayby it is between those who realize that times and tastes change and those who refuse to give up the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
They did. It was called the ChampCar World Series. Surely you remember? And you remember what happened to it?Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
Tastes haven't changed. They tried something different and its diminished everything to a point where Indy and its revenue is the only thing keeping everything else afloat. There is not enough interest in a major formula series to make it work, that's just the way it is. The only tastes that have changed are the people who left open wheel for NASCAR.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
As I said earlier the IRL is almost more stock than NASCAR is. Perhaps thats the way to get people interested again, is to be anything other than stock, lets see if the rules can be changed to allow more than one chasis in to all races next year.
And if Reynard built a new Indy Car chasis to the Indy Car rules TG should let them race......I know Reynard are gone.
Its stock by default, not choice. Ford, GM, Toyota, and Nissan unfortunately didn't see a point in continuing their open wheel programs and the grids dwindled to a point where having a second chassis in either series wasn't worth the cost of development. We'll see what happens in 2010.
This split between American Open Wheel Fans and I500 fans is not allowed to be discussed on the speed forum.
With the economy the way it is today condensing the schedule to 10 days would have benefits for everyone.
I strongly believe more fans would take their vacations during that time just like the fans of the Daytona 500.
Indianapolis would be host to a larger crowd and more than likely be more profitable.
AOWR would benefit because they could have two more races in May leading up to Indy week.
Today's teams do not need the month of May to prepare for the I500. One reason is weather conditions will change so that the practiced car set up will not be the same as the race day set up. If this years race day is hot and sunny that will be the opposite of most all the days in May leading up to the race.
I see the shopworn line flown by CART folks for two decades about the cost of going to Indy. It's a whine. As I pointed out before, it's a home game for MANY teams based in Indianapolis with no travel expenses. Track time is their choice.
And they're competing for a $13 million purse. I suppose you could chop it to two weeks and cut the purse in half and eliminate all the ancillary events surrounding a three-week format. But how would that help Indy OR the series? Again, it diminishes the magnitude of the race...to folks in Indy and folks elsewhere.....two weeks of pub instead of three, two weeks of activity instead of three. It didn't work when it was tried. IMO, it was a disaster.
You don't build something up by tearing something else down. CART thought it could. It was wrong. CC thought it could. It was wrong. Why would we need to be doing this three times? Haven't we learned ANYTHING?
I agree that the venue and the series need to be built up at Indy, but not just the I500. IMHO, taking three weeks to qualify for and run one race is an embarrassment and makes for a lot of wasted time (from the fan's point of view). Can you imagine a two-and-a-half-week long festival of open-wheel speed instead? Have the whole ladder represented, from karts up to Indy cars. Race on the both the road track (Star Mazda and Atlantics) and the oval (IPS and Indy cars). Hold bump day on the day before the big event. Now that would be great!
Maybe some don't understand the extent of things that happen during those three weeks. It starts off with a mini-marathon, one of the nation's largest, with 30,000 runners run by the "500" Festival. There are contests, activities, appearances throughout the month. Races? The Speedway added the Freedom 100 for Indy Lights cars, a previously unheard of second race at the Speedway during May. USAC and others hold racing programs for short track cars at IRP and the Indiana State Fairgrounds. There is the Lirttle 500 sprint car race at Anderson. There is a Community Day for autograph signing and children's activities. A major charity golf tournament is held on the Brickyard Crossing course during race week. Sponsors use that three-week period to entertain customers and employees in suites and motorhomes throughout the month and build significant promotions around it.
And for those who are coming at this from a CC perspective, most of what I've read from those teams was that they could get up to speed much easier during May with the increase in track time. I haven't read one complaint from teams about it now. The war is over for them.
I for one think the month at Indy is a little to long.It may be great for those that live their but I don't see the benfit for race fans across the world.I want to see a race.Oval qualifying will never keep me entertain.I don't know the ends and outs, like a lot of posters, of the team finances involved during the month of May.I just like to see another race in May before the 500.
There will always be a "split" among race fans about the 500 and the rest of series.All I know that in NASCAR every race is a big deal.There is pre-race shows and post race shows for every event.That's want I want for Indycar so badly.Lets not put all our eggs in the 500 basket.Build the series and the 500 will grow stronger.DOes the average fan know the next race after the 500? I haven't heard it mention on air.
It upset me when Danica said after droping out of the Kansas race that the 500 was all that really mattered.She is the face for the series and she doesn't care why should the average fan?
As far as the "buzz" for the "merger" everybody on air is talking about..I know where I live nothing has change.Its awful coverage like always.I hope it is difference else where
Just to bring that full circle, the IRL also thought it could and it was wrong as well. Thankfully, they and everyone else involved finally realized that the only way forward was a united series. Viva le' unification.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Gary
Agreed, Gary.
I think those who defend the 3 plus weeks of activity at the Speedway are usually closer to Indy in their living accomodation than those farther away. I am sure it is a big deal if you can go to see practice and the qualifying but really, give this deal maybe 2 weeks.
Daytona gets by on 2 weeks. Charlotte has their 2 weeks for the All Star and 600. No f1 event needs more than 4 days. Indy is special, but it isn't that radically different to adjust to, especially with a spec car now being run.
Years ago, I used to hear every day the practice speeds at Indy leading up to qualfying in the news. That was up HERE in Canada. Those days are now long gone, and I think the idea of the month of May's traditions mean a lot less in the aftermath of the last decade and change of TG's somewhat arbitrary handling of those traditions. Factor in the money he changes for hospitality and the rest, and it is clear he is making more by drawing this out than he is paying out in the very nice purse that he hands out to the 33 who make the field.
The sport has to realize it is now in competion for attention and fans with F1, NASCAR and all the other distractions. Once upon a time, they were the big fish in a medium sized pond. Now they are no longer the biggest fish in the pond and the pond is now a lake. It is time to reexamine the effect of taking the series and shutting it down for a month. Two weeks would be ample. Have them arrive on a Monday after the previous race, test for 4 days, having qualification for pole Saturday and Sunday. Give 2 days of practice and tuning and then the followling Sunday give us the greatest spectacle in racing. The condensed format likely would NOT cut into the attention of the fans, and Tony would be getting fans almost every day for those two weeks. He would not lose much if anything in gate. It is no longer 1940 and you cannot pretend you are the only racing series in the world. NASCAR has run 3 races in the time the teams have been at Indy and this is something that people at the Speedway should be paying attention to. Their competition never stops....always with product for the fan. Sorry, but watching single car practice runs isn't good TV and while I enjoy Bump Day, many couldn't be bothered either. Keep the uniqueness of the qualifying format, but don't waste everyone's time with a month of it.