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Opinion or fact?Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
My OPINION is he does what is expected. Nothing more, nothing less. When 2% of the population of the U.S. is racing fans and only 20% of those are Open Wheel fans, the 815,000 that viewed that race is 652,000 of RUBES and TUNER INs. The rest are real racing fans. So who is Scott trying to educate? 163,000 expert racing fans or the clueless 652,000?
Kind of like the teacher in the front of the room, he plays to those that do not know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!
Wow!!
This has absolutely NOTHING to do with Champcar!!
This has Everything to do with who would be a great man for the job!!
Seat time doesn't always give you the ability to deliver technical information in a most colorful way.
Jon Beekhuis is the man for the job!!
We get our depth news from writing and immediate on-the-scene news from radio and TV. It's been that way for decades. TV and radio TRY to give more depth with anthology shows but they can only go far with live broadcasts of sporting events. Again, WALDO's point is those of us on the forums might already know some of the technical stuff because our interest is much more intense.
But the guy who's watching a basketball game doesn't need to know how many seams there are on the ball....he needs to know that it's Kobe Bryant shooting the thing to satisfy him. And that's how WALDO's 600,000-plus figure enjoy a race.
Here, here. It is exhausting, isn't it? Waldo should understand that he doesn't have to have a response for everything. He's asking for a link about an emotional response to a broadcaster. The entire notion of the link is based on opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
Exactly. And that doesn't require race wins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
Well, through the various responses, that Uncle Waldo is at it again. Once more he knows everything and the rest of us know nothing. I am not sure why you folks are wasting your time on this guy.
Asking for "facts" when someone suggests that Jon would be a better fit than Scott. The whole notion of "facts" in such a discussion is just ridiculous at face value. I and others have pointed out how Jon can do some of the "color commentary" of explaining some of the technical aspects of the race in a way that both engages and educates the uninitiated and at the same time doesn't talk down to the small percentage who already understand the topic. That is a rare trait.
But what really got me was in the reply to Starter, where he made the comment about the teacher playing to those who don't know. Ahhh, we have finally found a topic where Uncle Waldo does NOT know where of he speaks. He could not be more wrong a GOOD teacher engages both those who don't know and those who do and expands the horizons for both. I have been a teacher and a trainer and if I ever lowered my standards such that I only bothered to reach out to those who didn't know and didn't draw in the folks in the room who did, I would be doing both groups a grave disservice.
Gary
Quote:
Originally Posted by TU Homer
Yeah, well good luck on the first part of that. He is the self annointed expert on everything. Just ask him.
What was more funny was he was asking for FACTS about an emotional response to a broadcaster.
Gary
The basketball game and most other sporting events aren't really a good comparison. How many of them have the equivalent downtime provided by the full course yellows? It only makes sense to use that time to do some of the more in depth explanation of some of the terms and situations that come up during the broadcast. The casual tuner is bound to hear about the car being loose or tight or the terms oversteer or understeer. Do you honestly think they don't want to know what that means? Do you think that they want to just hear those terms flash by and be done with it? Sorry, I don't buy that at all. In fact I think that in all likelihood that a real opportunity exists to turn those "casual tuner" into something more if given a chance to be educated while being entertained. I am not suggesting it needs to be hoop explaining the second sector split time differences in a car set up with increased camber and lowered ride height, but some enumeration is useful. And Jon, has a skill found in very few broadcasters to do that sort of thing very well. There is a guy on some of the Nascar broadcasts who I have seen with similar skills. He has a cutaway car at his disposal and during yellows gives some background on some aspect that has just occurred in the the race. I do not think for one second that he is targeting ONLY that low percentage of gearheads in the viewing audience. He is going for a much large segment of the 600,000.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
I think you and Uncle Waldo are selling those 600,000 just a bit short.
Gary
Gary, I agree that Beekhuis is a fine broadcaster for the reasons that you mentioned. I also agree that personal preferences cannot be argued as FACTS. And I understand loose and tight and "stepped out" more than oversteer and understeer because I get those mixed up and hafta think about 'em.
If it's, as you put it with NASCAR's cutaway, germane to the situation on the track, I think that is very useful to the viewer and NASCAR's broadcasters pioneered that. But if it's why the red widget goes into the blue dingushole for better aerodymanic efficiency on the right front, uh uh.
I have a problem with this notion of the "casual tuner-in's." Racing isn't that hard to understand and NASCAR broadcast have gone a long way to educating (bludgeoned) on how it all works. IMO, most people that sit down to watch a race, know what racing is all about and can easily disseminate the subtle differences between series. I will also go so far as to say that most people that tuned in to watch the Indy Car opener has already watched a half dozen NASCAR races and 2 F1 races, this season, and if they know the rules there, then they surely can figure Indy Car out.
If at some point in your life you wanted to be a race fan, you had the "want to" or passion to learn enough about the races to figure it out. Watching racing is not brain surgery and unless you are a total moron you can figure it out in one oval race and one road race. So how many of that 800,000 and change really tuned in to watch the race? ... If they have watched more then 2 races in their lives they already have a real good grasp on what racing is about. If they specifically tuned in to watch an Indy Car race, I gotta believe they know their racing.
If there are any "casual fans" watching, they are setting on the couch next to their boyfriend, husband or brother who's already a hardcore fan explaining it to them.
People here, that continue to have to explain to us about the "casual race fan" underestimate the intelligence of the Indy Car viewer. IMO, they underestimate all race viewers and race attendees.
If I hear the phrase "casual race fan" again, I'm gonna throw up. I purpose there is know such animal.
Note: The above comments are not made to insult any of the regular posters I highly respect and any questions ask are strictly rhetorical.
When I scream is when a director goes to a mundane interview with a backmarker that dropped out after six laps or one of those tech features when there's a fight for the lead on the race track. And I think THAT'S something even the casual viewer would agree on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Yes, I think we find ourselves singing from the same hymnal again. (Except, I confuse loose and tight but think in terms of oversteer and understeer!)
The point about the red widget is spot on, and precisely why I mentioned spit time differences due to more camber and lower ride height. (Sorry hoop, wasn't trying to pick on YOU! Besides I am not sure if more camber and lower ride height would even affect split times. I call on you when I need to know such tech detail!!!!)
Gary
Casual viewers don't watch races. If you had casual viewers, you would have more than 800k folks watching the races. Folks that watch IRL races "watch" the race, and appreciate descriptions of the cars, rules, strategies, teams, racers, and everything else relevant to the actual competition. On the razor's edge is the balance between interesting and banality.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
The exception might be the Indy500. But that is exactly when a little depth might do some good. If these occasions where there truly are casual viewers are not taken advantage of with a little race strategy or rules discussions or technology discussions, then these casual viewers will continue to think of the Indy500 as a long chase around a track.
IMO (and it's only my opinion) I haven't been able to listen to Goodyear. He speaks with a strange intonation that sounds monotone. He MIGHT be saying something interesting, but I can't really hear it. When he's talking, I ain't listening. Maybe Waldo can let TG know about that.
-TU
All this talk about which reporter is great and which is irritating is funny. I'm old enough to remember when races were not shown live. One hour edits one week later. For me, a reporter has to be real f'n bad to take away my enjoyment of watching a race live. In fact, I've never heard a reporter so bad it made me want to stop watching.
Quote:
Originally Posted by downtowndeco
For me it is less about which ones are bad enough to detract, as it is about which ones are so much better that they ADD to the enjoyment of watching the race.
Gary
Nope, wrong. Ever been to a race? What percentage are real race fans? What percentage is place fans? What percentage are on lookers? TV is no different and ratings are a scientific guess. I dont dance but have watched Dancing with the Stars. There are very, very few fans but the number of real race fans that follow Open Wheel are about the same today as 1948, 1968 and 1988.Quote:
Originally Posted by TU Homer
What race strategy? When to pit? You think this is tough stuff, it is actually a sandwich made with two pieces of white bread and a couple pieces of turkey, and a piece of Cheddar Cheese. Nothing else, not even cut. No this may be stuff that you think is next to building a nuclear reactor, while everyone else is watching and thinking about their finances, if they can take a vacation this year, or if they will lose their house. This is ENTERTAINMENT. They can just switch one number on their TV and watch an HBO Movie in HD.Quote:
Originally Posted by TU Homer
Look, please get over it. Does Scott Goodyear have a contract for 2008? Yes! Did he sign this contract before you started watching? Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by TU Homer
Remember this is not a merger this is surrender. You may wish for certain things like all the money making oval events replaced with money losing street events, but I hate to break it to you, the CCWS, its cars, some of its teams, many of its races, many of their broadcasters are now history.
This is why if I was calling the shots, I would have done nothing. I would have let the CCWS hang. No help as the fans would spin and twist it, just let them go ahead with their season. I was told that there were people everywhere willing to pick up the CCWS. Now they are in bankruptcy where are those people? They are VAPORWARE.
Look I knew a guy once that claimed he had two dogs. One was running, jumping and very playful. The other was lying in the corner, not breathing, stiff as a board and there was fresh food and water next to him. This is what the CCWS supporters are doing, feeding and watering a dead dog.
Of course he lived in Oklahoma and this could be just pure coincidence.
Has everything to do with CCWS. You lost, you want a man's contract terminated in favor of a person who was paid by the CCWS.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimispeed
I do know this. Watching this stuff, being involved and having cocktails with some of these people makes me know a bit more than you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
IT IS THE KISS FORMULA THAT MAKES NEW FANS!
Did you take a basic class? A basic class gives you enough information to see if you want to continue, if not it gives you a basic knowledge and outlines.
Did you ever take an Advance Class? A lot of homework, lots of reading, more "lab" work, yet not enough to make you an expert.
Ever take an Honors Class? 5 times harder than the advance class. This could get you a job in this. You could teach or work in it.
You want them to teach HONORS when 80% do not have a BASIC knowledge of Open Wheel Racing.
This isn't me, but from those that do this for a living. So instead of coming after me, just think from those that are clueless point of view. The simplier the better.
It is amazing the depths that can be reached when things do not work out the way they wanted.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
The announcers of Rick and Jon were nothing special except they were working for the CCWS. My question is....did they get paid?
I just PMed you and copied to Mark. I have been insulted but that is ok. I have been called having something mentally wrong, when I did not insult him I was given 3 points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
I am trying to make points with those that want to twist and turn everything.
It doesn't matter who "won or lost" but you have plenty that want their way. Me I try to use logic, like not firing someone employed. Maybe I am wrong for that. I am trying so hard that maybe I should just leave and tell others that see what is going on to leave too.
Waldo bugger off. I have you on my ignore list yet your crap still turns up in everyone's quotes!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!
Noooo, please Waldo, donīt go away, I will revert anything Starter does, but please, donīt leave us, donīt condemn us to suffer our own ignorance and illogical reasoning, please, we will do whatever you want, but donīt go (specially taking all others that see what is going on).
Look Waldo, there are 2 things that donīt work in forums, one is using threats, threatening to leave the forum and taking others with you has never work for anyone in any forum, it is after all a forum, a place with no real importance, a place to hang around with friends and strangers that happen to share a hobby or a passion for something (in our case OW racing), threatening to leave a forum is like threatening not to go back to a pub, no one really cares.
The other thing that doesnīt work is telling everyone that you are going away just to get other members to tell you how much they like you and how much the forum needs you (specially if you announce your possible departure more than once, like in this case), it doesnīt work because forums are always in constant change, members come and go every month, every week, people who want to leave donīt announce it, they just do it.
Iīm not telling you to go away, Iīm not telling you to stay, that is your personal choice (unless you keep antagonizing members, in that case I will make the choice for you), what Iīm telling you is to spare us the drama and/or the threats.
Thank you I just forward this on. I teach an internet class. Got 5 people that want to start or moderate their own forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrambide
Thanks for another PoV on what not to do as a REFEREE. A moderator is a REFEREE not someone that goes a picks fights.
Again thank you as this is printing out. Hopefully this will educational and helpful to those tonight that want to become you.
The whole idea of unification was to advance the sport beyond its stagnant past. If the ICS wants to remain the cheesy open wheel alternative then don't make changes in the broadcast booth.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Why can't these myopic diehards take a lesson from SPEED's Formula One trio who do an outstanding job. They provide just the right balance for their audience demographic. Should ICS fans expect any less?
Homestead's announcers delivered a real snoozefest IMO. I've heard better commentary on SCCA, Mazda Pro and Atlantics.
You should get to know who you are picking a fight with WALDO.Quote:
Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!
When it comes to credibility between Starter and you, you'll see more support here for Starter. He doen't get off badgering all the posters like the other half of this debate.
Many series have gone through their share of personalities, and combinations thereof, in the announcers booth. When you're looking to increase audience and fan support, the chipmunk has to either go or get less air time. Does Peter Windsor have any relatives in the business?
Jon is a damn lot better than Goodyear and whoever the other guy is. They sound like they're reading the lottery results! Neither of the IRL's two commentators have that ability to add some excitement or enthusiasm that engages the audience like someone like Murray Walker, and it seems that they can't engage the audience with tech talk like Brundle or Crompton can, either.Quote:
Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!
Beekus has done more than CC. I thought you would have known that considering all the claims you throw around this forum Mr. Waldo.Quote:
Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!
Do you really think Scott Goodyear was a top open wheel driver? I don't.
He should have done an HPI course. He puts his foot in his mouth way too much. Put him down in the paddock and pits for a while to hone his communication skills. Get him out of the booth, along with the other bonehead.
Migosh, guess folks who wanted to found something to keep the split going with. First of all, Goodyear and Co. likely had contracts signed to do the telecasts months before the "blendification." I suppose the first tech violation on an ex-CC team will draw comments about bad officiating...the first CC person of interest to have a credential problem of some kind at Indy.....etc., etc.
IMO, Bobby Unser has probably been the best color commentator on TV in open-wheel history....and it was genuinely entertaining when Sam Posey was his "foil."
Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
IC, I think it is a total over reaction to suggest that the call for Jon to be a part of the broadcast has ANYTHING to do with the split. To turn your "I suppose the first..." comment back to you, I suppose every time anyone says anything to criticize the IRL/ICS, it will be seen as trying to keep the split going. That's just ridiculous. The split is over, done with, gone for me. But I am one of the vocal who thinks the current announcer pair STINK. I could care less if they have an iron clad contract, or not. That doesn't make their performance any better, nor would it prevent adding a third voice (Jon maybe????) to the booth. They did so last year with Rusty, didn't they?
And don't get me started about the Unser/Posey paring. Bobby was great, Sam was an IDIOT as an announcer when paired with Bobby. (I like Sam a lot, and enjoyed his commentary immensely in some of his other endeavors. But his bickering with Bobby, was for me way out of place.) Their banter was not entertaining, it was a HUGE distraction. My wife and I both used to yell at the TV, "Oh Sam, just shut the hell up". Actually, the expletive was a tad more "colorful".
Gary
Whoops, you may be right but it does seem that it's going that way, judging by who's posting what.
Okay, guess we disagree on the Unser-Posey pairing. I thought they were entertaining. And yes, Posey did a great job on other stuff, particularly the Iditarod up in Alaska.
And regardless of whoever's working with him, I've always thought Bob Jenkins was the best anchor announcer in racing.
Is Waldoworld getting uglier?Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrambide
Maybe Firestone should be dropped in favor of Bridgestone.
I am starting to see the "light". I think that all the DP01s needed to get to St Petersburg right now. A car that has so much experience and history needs to be use. Get rid of Honda in favor of Cosworth. That engine is state of the art and is as good as it gets. Get rid of any driver that raced in CART that jumped to the IRL in favor of any Atlantic driver. No more Kanaan, Helio, hello squid. Dump the ABC contract and its paid talent in favor of the greatest announcing crew that the CCWS could buy.
While we are at it. Let's drop Kansas, Indianapolis, Texas (Real Men won't race there), Watkins Glen, Nashville, Kentucky, Sonoma, Chicago. Replace them with Houston, (Not too late), Laguna Seca, Portland, Cleveland, Toronto, St Jovite, Michigan, Fontana, Assen, Brands Hatch. Keep Milwaukee, Edmonton, Belle Isle, Surfer's. Now there is an Indy Car Circuit.
Wait, they aren't racing at Indy under this. Oh well, that doesn't matter. We can call them Champ Cars. All 300,000,000 in this country knows what a Champ Car is. Many have one in their driveway as their second car.
I guess this will make more sense since one has money and one went broke that the one with money follows the exact path of the one that went broke otherwise there could be no peace. Only way there can be peace is if the people who's series is gone gets to be in charge.
Then there will be dancing in the streets and fireworks and attacking all those that disagree with ball bats.
3 years from now, we will go through this all again.
Not likely. The reason the Bridgestone brand was used in Champ Car because both the drivers and fan base were becoming more international. The Bridgestone brand doesn't have anywhere near the name recognition in North America that Firestone does.Quote:
Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!
A JOKE. We have DEMANDED that the Formula be changed, now. Races be changed, now. The announce be changed, now. What next, tires?Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig
See the 500 from 1922 to 1966 was won by Firestone. (I could not ask you this in a question form as you may not know, thanks to those sitting on my head.)
Actually according to Bridgestone, they want to use that name World Wide and Firestone in the U.S. as Harvey Firestone's Empire was an Akron, OH company with a long connection to American Racing. So Bidgestone is used now internationally but since there are those that want WORLD SERIES brought into the FORMULA then BRIDGESTONE becomes viable again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Jenkins is great. So are you now joining our ranks and saying he should replace someone in the booth? <big ol' grin>
I heard some car stuff that Posey did that was GREAT. It was some documentary/historical pieces but I can't remember the particulars. Didn't he also help out one year at Barrett Jackson? I know Alan Decadenet (spelling?) did. He was GREAT and his "by design"series is second to none!
Gary
Didn't see the car stuff Sam did, but met him....genuinely nice guy....and like I said, he did a fine job on a sled-dog race for several years....he acted like he studied up real well for that one and sounded authoritative.
I have no idea what goes into naming announcers between the network and the IRL, but it isn't the first time I've said I liked Jenkins as THE top-quality anchor announcer. (big ol' grin)
Holy crap, what's the world coming to? Indycool and garyshell are agreeing with one another!! :eek: :D Should we blame Kevin or Tony? Or Gerry?
They're all to blame! Robin Miller too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Breeze
You guys are so gullible, indycool and Garyshell are the same person, I know, they have the same I.P. Address. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Breeze
How's about when they used to argue? Is it's mental health improving?Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrambide