Just gave up on him. There is a small weight gain on his face in cas someone has noticed. A-Jax has no ride what-so ever. He might as well either go to Grand-Am or ALMS.Quote:
Originally Posted by nanders
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Just gave up on him. There is a small weight gain on his face in cas someone has noticed. A-Jax has no ride what-so ever. He might as well either go to Grand-Am or ALMS.Quote:
Originally Posted by nanders
If his contract was kaput! .... I'd match him up with Michael Cannon in a heart beat.
And Montoya hasn't exactly dominated NASCAR.Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
The ones who always say F1 drivers are the best, why do you say that and what do you base it on ? They are not. An IRL driver is more diverse in that they drive both road/street courses and ovals. F1 drivers would be lost on an oval. An IRL driver would run circles around them. :D
Its not every driver's goal to be an F1 driver. Danica, Tony Kanaan, Dixon, Marco Andretti, Wheldon, Castroneves, Dario, Sam Hornish (I know they are NASCAR now) can run against anyone in F1.
And you definitely cant compare NASCAR and open wheel drivers in a true aspect. Stock cars are a different monster all together.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanicaFan
This one time at band camp...
Look, INDY CAR, F-1 and NASCAR Sprint Cup are the top end of the sport. There are more millionaire drivers in NASCAR right now than in F-1. Most Car owners there are looking for the cheap. "Want to drive F-1 then here is what I will pay you." If you say no then someone else will take the seat. Sprint Cup is no different as being at the apex allows the car owners flexability at paying them what they desire not what the driver think his value is.
Of the three, the ICS is the lightest paying series as there is no money in the series and the new program takes care of the owners and not the drivers. Without car owners, no cars and drivers need cars. Racing Economics 101.
I believe that the drivers mentioned by DanicaFan might be competent to drive an F1 car well and I certainly rank Dan Wheldon higher than some F-1 drivers. But I don't think that any driver is Indy Car is as good as Kimi Raikkonen or Fernando Alonso. Of course, this is just my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
EVERY single driver in F1 is a millionaire.Quote:
Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!
Link please?Quote:
Originally Posted by DexDexter
So what if they are? That doesn't make them any better or worse than any other driver. I can work a job for one widget maker and make "X" and work the same job at another widget maker and make "Y."
Put any ot them on a bike in moto-x :)
We seem to have wandered off topic.
Danicafan: There have been many F1 drivers who were winners on ovals. There have been oval drivers who won on road courses including F1.
At the moment there are too many good feeder series running in Europe for IRL drivers to get much chance. If the new spec cars are better road racing cars and the series runs on tough road circuits there certainly will be chances.
In the mid 70's one of the main feeder series was the Cdn. F. Atlantic series. Yes, a lot of the drivers were not North American but it was a main proving ground. It was also a main feeder for Indy and had no ovals!
Then there was the time 6 or 7 pro Atlantic teams showed up at Charlotte for a SCCA spring regional! They ran all formula cars together for first practice. The Formula Vees came off the road course and headed for the top off the banking and then shot down to the bottom to gain speed and then back up at maybe 80. By this time the Atlantics were up to 160/170 and running near the top groove. Groups were quickly changed before disaster hit.
I don't think that being an IRL driver makes one inferior to any and all F1 drivers. But anyone who believes that a person who has never won a professional open wheel race, or whose standings show them to be average at best, can run circles around the sharp end of the F1 grid... that's the same mindset that you see on certain "fantasy" boards, where any CCWS driver can beat any IRL driver (even the current IRL drivers who scorched them when both were in CART). So like I said, this one time at band camp, these four twin sister cheerleaders from another school... :dozey:Quote:
An IRL driver is more diverse in that they drive both road/street courses and ovals. F1 drivers would be lost on an oval. An IRL driver would run circles around them.
Danica, Tony Kanaan, Dixon, Marco Andretti, Wheldon, Castroneves, Dario, Sam Hornish (I know they are NASCAR now) can run against anyone in F1.
In my world, Senna was always better than Prost or Mansell. I would never admit any different. But that was me being a Senna fan(atic). I was still plugged into reality well enough to know that wasn't (always) true. I think certain IRL drivers would do well enough against certain F1 drivers, in either F1 or IRL cars. But if it was my own money that I was betting, I'd take the sharp end of the F1 grid to beat the sharp end of the IRL grid in either type of car. That's a personal opinion based on observation over the years... because it'll never happen, as I don't see Lewis (or Kimi or Fernando or Felipe or Kubica) ever coming to the IRL and I don't see Danica (or Dan or Dario or Castroneves) ever going to F1. I do believe Rubens Barrichello might come over to do Indy if Honda remains a player.
But short of a real ROC race, we will never settle this.
So using Al Gore's logic if you make $250,000 for 4 years then you are a millionaire. How about $25,000 for 40 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by DexDexter
Yes all F-1 drivers make around $1,000,000 but that does not make them millionaires.
Justin Wilson is? He drove F-1. Yet a JPM can make a base around $750,000 and end up doubling up what he made in one season with McLaren.
May F-1 drivers price themselves out of the sport like Jacques Villenueve, others want to continue to drive, Coulthart. The rest are drivers desperate to continue there climb son the car owner has the final say. If a driver takes $500,000 and $100,000 per point then that can become the norm.
Yes if you win a WC you can demand more than a person who struggles to gain a point.
Who is Al Gore? I think you should read about F1 a little more before putting out comments like above. You obviously don't have any idea of the status of the sport in the world. Yes F1 drivers are all millionaires, in euros, and in dollars even more so. According to F1 racing March 2007 the top 10 drivers salaries were:Quote:
Originally Posted by !!WALDO!!
1. Kimi Raikkonen, Ferrari, US$51 million
2: Ralf Schumacher, Toyota, US$25 million.
3: Fernando Alonso, McLaren, US$22 million.
4: Jenson Button, Honda, US$18 million.
5: Rubens Barrichello, Honda, US$12 million.
6: Jarno Trulli, Toyota, US$10 million.
7: Felipe Massa, Ferrari, US$8 million.
8: Giancarlo Fisichella, Renault, US$7 million.
9: Mark Webber, Red Bull, US$5 million.
10. Takuma Sato, Super Aguri, US$4.5 million.
Two things come to mind here.Quote:
Originally Posted by DexDexter
First, there are, by my count, about 23 more drivers in F1 (including test drivers). Are they all paid over one million?
Second, Waldo is right, IMO. It takes more than having a $1M salary to be considered a millionaire. If your salary is $1M a year and your lifestyle takes $999,999 to support, then you're not going to be a millionaire. YMMV.
The test drivers are a different thing, I don't consider them F1 drivers.... Anyway, based on what I have read here , It seems that people here (Americans) fail to grasp how much money there is in F1, and how big it really is outside their world.Quote:
Originally Posted by tbyars
I disagree. I think most American racing fans understand very well how much money there is in F1.Quote:
Originally Posted by DexDexter
However, you made a very specific statement about all F1 drivers being millionaires. I think that is the statement some of us are disputing.
I would guess - and it's just a guess - that there are more actual millionaire drivers in NASCAR than there are in F1, but I'll also be the first to admit that is not really an apples to apples comparison.
Well, to be fair, in the last couple years, no one outside of the Hendrick or Gibbs team dominates Nascar, especially in a Dodge. Not really any different than in F1 if you are outside of the McLaren and Ferrari camps.Quote:
Originally Posted by F1boat
Until his father re-negotiated his contract mid way through last year, Lewis Hamilton was FAR from a millionaire on the salary he was being paid, as are most second and third drivers on the grid. See how much a second driver for Williams is actually paid. How many ride buyers ate there actually on the grid. That being said, with the money available in F1, being paid in excess of $1m is hardly indicative of the talent at hand. Access to the money to be there in the first place isthe real story. does anyone anywhere outside of the Shumacher household believe Ralf was worth anywhere near the salary he was paid?Quote:
Originally Posted by DexDexter
Spoiled rich kids born with the proverbial silver spoon don't count. In that respect, you may be correct.
I think you fail to realize how much money is in NASCAR too. I maybe wrong but every driver in the top 35 has made around $1,000,000 so far. 25 to 40% of that goes to the driver on top of base salary. So for 5 out of 36 so do a little math. Where is that number going. $7,000,000 so $500,000 base salary is $3,300,000 with Nationwide money, point fund and bonus puts that guy at $4,000,000. How many F-1 drivers get $4,000,000 to finish 35th in the points?Quote:
Originally Posted by DexDexter
Now a Jimmy Johnson won over $10,000,000 plus a base at $7,500,000 puts him over $10,000,000 in personal salary and it has gone up. He does nothing this year he will make over $12,000,000. There is money that Al Gore wants to take.
WALDO, that is TEAM money, but your point is still well-taken. There are a lot of bucks in NASCAR spread over a much wider area than F1.
Exactly. People are mixing up an income statement item with a balance sheet item.Quote:
Originally Posted by tbyars
Mike Tyson makes well in excess of $1 million every time he stumbles in the ring and bites someone on the ear. But between ex-wives, baby-mamas, the IRS and bank liens, I doubt that he goes back to being a millionaire anytime before he dies.
As for millionaires, King Hiro was/is a millionaire, but what does that mean? I'd be willing to bet my next paycheck that Milka Duno is a millionaire. But again, what does that mean? Being a millionaire might just mean that you have the means to buy yourself a ride, because you don't have the talent to get one by any other means. These are the people who have contributed to the current "suckage" in AOWR. Thankfully NASCAR and F1 haven't (yet) been totally overrun by the scourge. While in sports car racing, their time behind the wheel tends to be a token.
NASCAR is the only series that the driver gets the checks then pays out what is due based on contracts. Yes it is TEAM money but paid to the driver.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Nope. Paid to the entrant. Entrant pays the team and driver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DexDexter
OK that's 10 of the "every single" ... do you have linkage or more information?Quote:
Originally Posted by DexDexter
Yes Dex, Americans are a bunch of backazzed country **cks that can't think their way out of a paper bag. And if we didn't live in the "new world" we'd probably think the world was flat too. However, if you are making your assumption on what American "fail to grasp" from your cozy little chair in Europe while reading a post from one person, it's called "prejudice."Quote:
Originally Posted by DexDexter
In America people who demonstrate prejudice at your level are usually social outcast, or at the very least "makes friends poorly." Some Americans look at others who demonstrate a broad sweeping "prejudice," demonstrated by statements like "(Americans) fail to grasp," as narrow minded with ignorance of your own narrow mindedness.
And then just to give your statement the proper amount of Euro babble you laced it with a tone of arrogance.
So I'm thinking if you were trying to get off on the right foot, with this group, you are failing. When you come on with this "tone," your message gets lost in your obvious distaste for us Americans.
Possibly you could retreat to the F1 forum where you can dazzle that group with your mental superiority.
To be honest, most Europeans fail to realize how irrelevent anything they do is to most Americans. They have no concept how large this country is or how little the average American cares about them or anything they think. I don't count myself as one with that outlook or viewpoint, but it's the truth. If they don't like Americans, then why are they following an American sport?
Not in NASCAR. Check it out. They make a big deal evey year about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Ask any NASCAR race team, Waldo. Yes, ALL sanctioning bodies show it as driver earnings and talk about it as such. But drivers are on all kinds of deals with their teams in NASCAR as well as any other series.....retainers, percentages, combinations of those, performance bonuses and the like. Those are all negotiated with the race team to get the ride. And the race team pays them based on what bargain they struck, out of purses and sponsorship money and the like. It is sheer folly to think Jeff Gordon gets a purse check from NASCAR and gives team owner Rick Hendrick his "cut" out of it.
Jeff Gordon talked about it. He gets the check and then cuts checks on Monday to the team and such based on the contract. He said it on Wind Tunnel a couple years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
EVERY YEAR they discuss this on all the pre race deals of the drivers getting paid and spending their Mondays writing checks.
Sorry if you don't believe it but send off an email to NASCAR and they will verify it.
Geez you guys talk alot of BS....
Regarding the point of this thread. The answer should be "Who gives a f!@# if anyone in Indycar makes it to F1".
Indycar needs to worry about it's own future and build up it's own profile and that of it's drivers. Indycar shouldn't be trying to draw comparisons between itself and F1... or any other series.
It'll never get more sponsorship money or TV money or fans by protraying the image of a "Yet-Another-F1-feeder-series".
WALDO, you send the email to NASCAR. I don't need to. I've seen NASCAR entry blanks and I've seen NASCAR checks.
And JSH, you're right. I don't give a hoot if ANY of them go to F1.
As have I and even discussed reasoning with drivers. It has been this way for years as one driver told me going back to the early 1960's. He heard that Bill France Sr. had an idea that if drivers got paid and then had to pay out money for their "team" and thery were able to grasp the concept, then many of these drivers could become successful owners in the future. Has any form of racing turned more of its drivers into owners than NASCAR? Even today's crop has Harvick owning NNS and NCTS teams, others own teams in USAC and Hooter's. So even though you "have seen entries and checks" I wrote about this 20 and 10 years ago and who believes Jeff Gordon anyways, that was the same interview which he told that CART teams wanted FORD to pay them for Jeffy's ride. We all know that was a lie too.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
I have paid out much money to the entrant over the years but not to many of those drivers elected to move into the car owner status.
So this is on topic as even though no ICS will move to F-1 we do need these guys to step up to becoming Car Owners in the future otherwise this sport is in danger of disappearing in to the pages of history.
WALDO, I have respected your knowledge in some of your posts, but you are just incredibly inaccurate. Back in the '60s and '70s, many drivers owned their own cars (or put the race team in their wife's name), therefore, of course the check went to them .....everyone from Richard Petty to Coo Coo Marlin to Bill Champion to Richard Childress. Again, just call up a NASCAR team and ask 'em.
I can't imagine you even give a serious thought that the driver makes the deals with the crew chief and the team members and engine shop guys and builds the huge race shop complexes around Charlotte and the driver runs the team's accounting operation.
What happens when a driver gets fired?
Isn't the celebrity factor driving up the cost of NASCAR racing? More and more sponsors are having difficulty justifying the expense.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Yep. Also the value. And also the cost of parts and gimmicks to go fast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
IndyCar needs to address this problem. They need drivers with the Moore/Zanardi factor.
What is the "Moore-Zanardi factor?" Yes, both were star quality people and drivers.
...Which leads to greater marketability for the series, as the casual fans have a greater interest in X driver doing well.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
I suppose driver marketability is a bit of a chicken vs egg argument, but promoting Danica when she doesn't have star looks, personality or driving talent wasn't their best idea.