Sorry, but I have 5-bucks that says Champ Car does not answer the bell in 2008...

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Originally Posted by mark123

I read that the 2007 irl car was pretty close to the times set by the 2006 champcar at mid ohio? so given the IRL car is 100 - 150 hp down on the CC - they are hardly pigs on the road course.

I think that keeping the costs down is probably more important then been at the cutting edge of technology - particularly when you have no manufacturers in CC. Manufacturers will be the only ones to finance R&D in motorsport so for a series that has no manufacturers....????

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Lets not forget that a qualifying lap and race weekend is a LOT different than one guy testing out there by himself not trying to beat anyone and NOT trying to crash

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Originally Posted by Cart750hp

Alright.....sanguin, weefly, sandfly.....what say you?

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Has wisdom left the room again? CHRYSLER IS STILL ALIVE!! This thread reminds me of the circling vultures threads back in 2002-03. All the talk about road kill and yet to see the carcass.

These forums are full of Debbie Downers because that is the easy way out.

You can talk all you want about missed opportunities by letting CC drivers go but I have not seen the other OW series pick up those drivers.

Yep there were canceled races but when you ignore the reasons why they were cancelled, well there is the Debbie Downer direction once again.

If at some point in time Champ Car does fold, as far as I am concerned American Open Wheel Racing is finished and there are NO alternatives.

So with that said I will be backing Champ Car in 2008 and beyond. The 2008 schedule, venues will be added to the positive venues in 2007. Yes there were some poor preforming venues in 2007 and they possible will be eliminated in 2008. But the point of a good schedule is attendance, attendance is what builds venues and not TV ratings or because the venue is a forum favorite.

Yes in 2008 there will be new self sufficient teams and yes there will be drivers with sponsors.

But the bottom line is paid admission is what will build the series. A fan that purchases a ticket to see a race is more likely to stick with the series than a person that was given a free ticket.

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Originally Posted by mark123

I read that the 2007 irl car was pretty close to the times set by the 2006 champcar at mid ohio? so given the IRL car is 100 - 150 hp down on the CC - they are hardly pigs on the road course.

I think that keeping the costs down is probably more important then been at the cutting edge of technology - particularly when you have no manufacturers in CC. Manufacturers will be the only ones to finance R&D in motorsport so for a series that has no manufacturers....????

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mark123, you bring up an interesting comparison:

Mid-Ohio
2003 Champ Car Pole: 1:07.058 secs, P. Tracy, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Pole: 1:06:8375 secs, H. Castroneves, Dallara Honda
2003 Champ Car Fast Race Lap: 1:08.366 secs, J. Vasser, Reynard Ford
2007 Indy Car Fast Race Lap : 1:08.00 secs, D. Franchitti, Dallara Honda

Milwaukee Mile
2006 Champ Car Pole: 21.182 secs, S. Bourdais, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Pole: 21.3596 secs, H. Castroneves, Dallara Honda
2006 Champ Car Fast Race Lap: 22.285 secs, S. Bourdais, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Fast Race Lap: 22.2017 secs, D. Wheldon, Dallara Honda

No push-to-pass and less HP but the times are virtually identical. It does make you think, doesn't it?

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Originally Posted by mike15

These forums are full of Debbie Downers because that is the easy way out.

You can talk all you want about missed opportunities by letting CC drivers go but I have not seen the other OW series pick up those drivers.

Yep there were canceled races but when you ignore the reasons why they were cancelled, well there is the Debbie Downer direction once again.

If at some point in time Champ Car does fold, as far as I am concerned American Open Wheel Racing is finished and there are NO alternatives.

So with that said I will be backing Champ Car in 2008 and beyond. The 2008 schedule, venues will be added to the positive venues in 2007. Yes there were some poor preforming venues in 2007 and they possible will be eliminated in 2008. But the point of a good schedule is attendance, attendance is what builds venues and not TV ratings or because the venue is a forum favorite.

Yes in 2008 there will be new self sufficient teams and yes there will be drivers with sponsors.

But the bottom line is paid admission is what will build the series. A fan that purchases a ticket to see a race is more likely to stick with the series than a person that was given a free ticket.

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mike15, you have an interesting perspective on things. I have a question for you: just why did Champ Car lose these venues in 2007? Did it have anything at all to do with their lack of commercial viability? IMO, more current races look certain to follow them into oblivion in 2008. As for free tickets, they were plentiful in Vegas last April for the Champ Car season opener. On the subject of the "free" tickets in the IRL, it does seem that someone usually pays for these "free" IRL tickets before they are given away. This is the way it has been done since the heyday of CART. I guess that was okay then but its not okay now, eh?

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Originally Posted by mike15

These forums are full of Debbie Downers because that is the easy way out.

You can talk all you want about missed opportunities by letting CC drivers go but I have not seen the other OW series pick up those drivers.

Yep there were canceled races but when you ignore the reasons why they were cancelled, well there is the Debbie Downer direction once again.

If at some point in time Champ Car does fold, as far as I am concerned American Open Wheel Racing is finished and there are NO alternatives.

So with that said I will be backing Champ Car in 2008 and beyond. The 2008 schedule, venues will be added to the positive venues in 2007. Yes there were some poor preforming venues in 2007 and they possible will be eliminated in 2008. But the point of a good schedule is attendance, attendance is what builds venues and not TV ratings or because the venue is a forum favorite.

Yes in 2008 there will be new self sufficient teams and yes there will be drivers with sponsors.

But the bottom line is paid admission is what will build the series. A fan that purchases a ticket to see a race is more likely to stick with the series than a person that was given a free ticket.

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First of all, PLEASE don't try to fool yourself into thinking there is one iota fewer free tickets in CCWS than in the ICS. There is empherical evidence all over the place to support that position.

If your premise was correct, then why isn't the CCWS attendance parlaying itself into better TV veiwership? While you may try to minimize this, the TV viewership is where the sponsors, who make it possible to actually race, get a return on their investment.

With no new sponsors announced, and no real opportunity to get sponsors right now because there is no schedule (and won't be for at least another month) just exactly where is the money coming from to put new teams on the grid? Where are the orders for new DP-01s for next year?

I think the crux of your post is the comment that if CCWS goes under, then there is no alternative for you. With that being the case, then there is absolutely no harm in you casting an eye to the situation that defies logic.

The split was not going to continue forever. Whatever way it ended, there were fans that were going to be lost on one side or the other. It's a shame, really, that if CCWS goes under, your have taken the stance you have. Because, the fact is, that if CCWS does go under, regardless of your imagination, American Open Wheel will indeed continue.

It seems that whenever that SJ speaks and projects a date of sorts, the 2008 Schedule being the latest, it always misses the mark. Wonder if he sold dodgy used-cars back in the day. :)

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Originally Posted by ChaimWitz

mark123, you bring up an interesting comparison:

Mid-Ohio
2003 Champ Car Pole: 1:07.058 secs, P. Tracy, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Pole: 1:06:8375 secs, H. Castroneves, Dallara Honda
2003 Champ Car Fast Race Lap: 1:08.366 secs, J. Vasser, Reynard Ford
2007 Indy Car Fast Race Lap : 1:08.00 secs, D. Franchitti, Dallara Honda

Milwaukee Mile
2006 Champ Car Pole: 21.182 secs, S. Bourdais, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Pole: 21.3596 secs, H. Castroneves, Dallara Honda
2006 Champ Car Fast Race Lap: 22.285 secs, S. Bourdais, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Fast Race Lap: 22.2017 secs, D. Wheldon, Dallara Honda

No push-to-pass and less HP but the times are virtually identical. It does make you think, doesn't it?

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You might want to check the track distance ChaimWitz. The IRL uses a different method than Champ Car.

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Originally Posted by mike15

These forums are full of Debbie Downers because that is the easy way out.

You can talk all you want about missed opportunities by letting CC drivers go but I have not seen the other OW series pick up those drivers.

Yep there were canceled races but when you ignore the reasons why they were cancelled, well there is the Debbie Downer direction once again.

If at some point in time Champ Car does fold, as far as I am concerned American Open Wheel Racing is finished and there are NO alternatives.

So with that said I will be backing Champ Car in 2008 and beyond. The 2008 schedule, venues will be added to the positive venues in 2007. Yes there were some poor preforming venues in 2007 and they possible will be eliminated in 2008. But the point of a good schedule is attendance, attendance is what builds venues and not TV ratings or because the venue is a forum favorite.

Yes in 2008 there will be new self sufficient teams and yes there will be drivers with sponsors.

But the bottom line is paid admission is what will build the series. A fan that purchases a ticket to see a race is more likely to stick with the series than a person that was given a free ticket.

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Yes, the paying fans will be the support of the series,just as ALMS counts on it. They also buy tv time and and have bad ratings. It's about the fan support.

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Originally Posted by pits4me

You might want to check the track distance ChaimWitz. The IRL uses a different method than Champ Car.

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my initial point is that the IRL car is not a pig on the road course, even though its giving up a lot of HP to the CC. The IRL is now a spec series, basically running de-tuned Honda engines to extend the mileage between rebuilds. the course configuration at Mid Ohio was very similar, and the one mile oval was the obviously the same for both series.

It is not a scientific comparison - but it is interesting.