Race 6 - 2025 Miami Grand Prix [Miami International Autodrome]

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Originally Posted by airshifter

Ferrari simply made a clown show out of making the wrong decision.

Hamilton never had pace over Leclerc, he could simply stay with him due to DRS. Leclerc still had more pace in dirty air, so now both drivers tires are taking abuse. The only real shot they had at catching Kimi was to never swap the first time.

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Martin Brundle made a very interesting observation about this. He pointed out that Hamilton was able to catch Leclerc with faster medium tires while they were still fresh. Because they took three to five laps to decide if they should swap, the mediums were mostly spent by the time they finally swapped them. After they swapped them, Leclerc benefited from being towed along in the slipstream of Hamilton's Ferrari ahead. Much like how Sainz towed Albon to keep both Williams in the top ten and ahead of the Haas of Ocon in the previous race.

There were two qualms that Hamilton voiced during the race; firstly was that they took too long to execute the swap instruction. Secondly, that he voluntarily swapped in China when he realised that Leclerc was faster than him and expected a return of that favour.

So one observation is that Ferrari needs to be smarter to act promptly in the best interest of the team. The Ferrari strategy team should be considering the best outcome for Ferrari before considering anything else. Secondly, Leclerc was not being a team player on this occasion. He was only thinking about himself and not the team. If he were, he would have facilitated the swap and let Hamilton tow him along to Antonelli, which may have given both Ferrari a chance to sneak past Antonelli to produce a better result for the team. Clearly, Hamilton on mediums was considerably faster than Antonelli on old Hards.

One of LeClerc's weak points is that he is not capable of seeing the bigger picture during race conditions. This was one of those things that put Sainz above him when it came to in-race intelligence. Most noticeable in the 2023 and 2024 seasons, where Sainz in red was always able to outthink LeClerc to finish ahead even when he starts the race behind him.

What we saw was ugly from all concerned? And Vasseur did not have a handle on the situation for some reason.

Ferrari's problems seem set to deepen as they are failing to work as a cohesive team. Lacking team synergy while having a troublesome car is a recipe for disappointment come the end of the season. I personally, think the team needs a refresh. Time to swap out some of the old faces and bring in some fresher younger ones.

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

Martin Brundle made a very interesting observation about this. He pointed out that Hamilton was able to catch Leclerc with faster medium tires while they were still fresh. Because they took three to five laps to decide if they should swap, the mediums were mostly spent by the time they finally swapped them. After they swapped them, Leclerc benefited from being towed along in the slipstream of Hamilton's Ferrari ahead. Much like how Sainz towed Albon to keep both Williams in the top ten and ahead of the Haas of Ocon in the previous race.

There were two qualms that Hamilton voiced during the race; firstly was that they took too long to execute the swap instruction. Secondly, that he voluntarily swapped in China when he realised that Leclerc was faster than him and expected a return of that favour.

So one observation is that Ferrari needs to be smarter to act promptly in the best interest of the team. The Ferrari strategy team should be considering the best outcome for Ferrari before considering anything else. Secondly, Leclerc was not being a team player on this occasion. He was only thinking about himself and not the team. If he were, he would have facilitated the swap and let Hamilton tow him along to Antonelli, which may have given both Ferrari a chance to sneak past Antonelli to produce a better result for the team. Clearly, Hamilton on mediums was considerably faster than Antonelli on old Hards.

One of LeClerc's weak points is that he is not capable of seeing the bigger picture during race conditions. This was one of those things that put Sainz above him when it came to in-race intelligence. Most noticeable in the 2023 and 2024 seasons, where Sainz in red was always able to outthink LeClerc to finish ahead even when he starts the race behind him.

What we saw was ugly from all concerned? And Vasseur did not have a handle on the situation for some reason.

Ferrari's problems seem set to deepen as they are failing to work as a cohesive team. Lacking team synergy while having a troublesome car is a recipe for disappointment come the end of the season. I personally, think the team needs a refresh. Time to swap out some of the old faces and bring in some fresher younger ones.

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Commentators or others can come up with any alternate reality theory they want, but the data doesn't lie.

Hamilton was quick on his out lap, but with the softer tires and pitting first that was expected. And a part of the "lap time" was the fact that the VSC ended when Leclerc was still coming out of the pits, so his VSC advantage wasn't as complete. Cue the second VSC, and Hamilton managed to close to within DRS under VSC, and had not been there before.

When Leclerc passed Sainz, the next timing sector showed Hamilton less than .25 behind. That grew to almost 9/10ths through the lap. As the data clearly shows, Leclerc was faster for the next two laps, even though Hamilton was still in DRS range. On the third lap Lewis was faster.... all of 1/1000th of a second. During those 4 laps, Lewis made no less than 5 radio calls wanting the swap, even though he was at risk of dropping out of DRS range. So when the swap took place, the data Ferrari had was that Leclerc was quicker 2 of the 3 laps, on tires slower to come into temp, running in a lower power deployment mode. Far from beind towed by Hamilton, Leclerc dropped back almost a second and a half and was out of DRS range. A couple laps later Charles started taking time out of Lewis again, probably when his tires were up to temp. He pulled himself back into DRS range without much trouble, and was then smart enough to not push up too close and eat his tires, as well as using alternate lines to avoid the dirty air from ahead at times. He continued to be faster back through the second swap, and until race end. In the last four laps he gapped Lewis by over 2 seconds, and reeled Kimi in by a second.

As for Leclerc not being a team player? Rubbish if you ask me. The team made a single call and asked Charles to swap, and he swapped. He even suggested not swapping back stating it would cost the team time as he was still thinking they were catching Antonelli quicker. Though Lewis gave up a place in China, he was obviously slower, struggling with the car, and really just avoiding the team having to do it later. In the case of Miami Charles was in fact quicker, so he had no reason to volunteer to yield to a car struggling to stay in DRS. But when the team asked just once, he swapped.

I fully agree Ferrari need to act quicker and be smarter in their decisions and how they impact the whole team. But in this case, they set a precedent of letter the slower car through in hopes it would work. They simply caved, even though on the previous lap they had instructed Lewis to stay in DRS to open the gap to Sainz. And basic communications to the drivers are not respected, enforced, or punished when not. As I said in the other post, if the drivers just followe pit wall direction, then pit wall becomes accountable for problems they create.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

Commentators or others can come up with any alternate reality theory they want, but the data doesn't lie.

Hamilton was quick on his out lap, but with the softer tires and pitting first that was expected. And a part of the "lap time" was the fact that the VSC ended when Leclerc was still coming out of the pits, so his VSC advantage wasn't as complete. Cue the second VSC, and Hamilton managed to close to within DRS under VSC, and had not been there before.

When Leclerc passed Sainz, the next timing sector showed Hamilton less than .25 behind. That grew to almost 9/10ths through the lap. As the data clearly shows, Leclerc was faster for the next two laps, even though Hamilton was still in DRS range. On the third lap Lewis was faster.... all of 1/1000th of a second. During those 4 laps, Lewis made no less than 5 radio calls wanting the swap, even though he was at risk of dropping out of DRS range. So when the swap took place, the data Ferrari had was that Leclerc was quicker 2 of the 3 laps, on tires slower to come into temp, running in a lower power deployment mode. Far from beind towed by Hamilton, Leclerc dropped back almost a second and a half and was out of DRS range. A couple laps later Charles started taking time out of Lewis again, probably when his tires were up to temp. He pulled himself back into DRS range without much trouble, and was then smart enough to not push up too close and eat his tires, as well as using alternate lines to avoid the dirty air from ahead at times. He continued to be faster back through the second swap, and until race end. In the last four laps he gapped Lewis by over 2 seconds, and reeled Kimi in by a second.

As for Leclerc not being a team player? Rubbish if you ask me. The team made a single call and asked Charles to swap, and he swapped. He even suggested not swapping back stating it would cost the team time as he was still thinking they were catching Antonelli quicker. Though Lewis gave up a place in China, he was obviously slower, struggling with the car, and really just avoiding the team having to do it later. In the case of Miami Charles was in fact quicker, so he had no reason to volunteer to yield to a car struggling to stay in DRS. But when the team asked just once, he swapped.

I fully agree Ferrari need to act quicker and be smarter in their decisions and how they impact the whole team. But in this case, they set a precedent of letter the slower car through in hopes it would work. They simply caved, even though on the previous lap they had instructed Lewis to stay in DRS to open the gap to Sainz. And basic communications to the drivers are not respected, enforced, or punished when not. As I said in the other post, if the drivers just followe pit wall direction, then pit wall becomes accountable for problems they create.

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We agree on one thing: Both Ferraris were faster than Antonelli at some point after the VSC. But you seem to read the speed plot differently than professional drivers who have looked at this plot and are saying something quite different to you. Of course, we would never know how it would have turned out if they had reacted quicker. There is no doubt that LeClerc is quicker of the two on the same tire compound at the moment. But with the setup of the new medium to a few laps old hards, on evidence, Hamilton was quicker in that stint of the race and may have used those fresh tires to pull in Antonelli. But then again, you are very unlikely to see that. You did not factor in that both Ferrari drivers had to overtake Sainz and the effect of that on how that is represented on the plot. Or that, though Hamilton lost ground during that overtake, he quickly was on to LeClerc soon after due to the faster tires.

I expected LeClerc to be with Hamilton throughout after the swap for two reasons; Firstly, he would benefit from being towed along. Secondly, he is more efficient through the corners than Hamilton at the moment. The corners are where Hamilton loses all his lap times.Hence, LeClerc would always appeared to be faster of the pair through the corners. Even so, patience and cooperation to try out an alternate strategy were the smarter thing to do. Though LeClerc appeared faster after they swapped them back, he was not fast enough to catch Antonelli. The end of the race bears out that fact, even if we factor in time lost in the swap

Whichever way you look at it, the driver pairing did not work together cooperatively to experiment to see if an alternative approach may yield a different result. If the Ferrari pitwall thought Hamilton was too slow for the experiment of swapping them to work, they would have said so and most likely refused to swap them. On evidence, they took too long to work out the potential of the scenario.

Ferrari needs to act quickly , to stop drivers second guessing instructions and denigrating the team in public .

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

We agree on one thing: Both Ferraris were faster than Antonelli at some point after the VSC. But you seem to read the speed plot differently than professional drivers who have looked at this plot and are saying something quite different to you. Of course, we would never know how it would have turned out if they had reacted quicker. There is no doubt that LeClerc is quicker of the two on the same tire compound at the moment. But with the setup of the new medium to a few laps old hards, on evidence, Hamilton was quicker in that stint of the race and may have used those fresh tires to pull in Antonelli. But then again, you are very unlikely to see that. You did not factor in that both Ferrari drivers had to overtake Sainz and the effect of that on how that is represented on the plot. Or that, though Hamilton lost ground during that overtake, he quickly was on to LeClerc soon after due to the faster tires.

I expected LeClerc to be with Hamilton throughout after the swap for two reasons; Firstly, he would benefit from being towed along. Secondly, he is more efficient through the corners than Hamilton at the moment. The corners are where Hamilton loses all his lap times.Hence, LeClerc would always appeared to be faster of the pair through the corners. Even so, patience and cooperation to try out an alternate strategy were the smarter thing to do. Though LeClerc appeared faster after they swapped them back, he was not fast enough to catch Antonelli. The end of the race bears out that fact, even if we factor in time lost in the swap

Whichever way you look at it, the driver pairing did not work together cooperatively to experiment to see if an alternative approach may yield a different result. If the Ferrari pitwall thought Hamilton was too slow for the experiment of swapping them to work, they would have said so and most likely refused to swap them. On evidence, they took too long to work out the potential of the scenario.

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If "professional drivers" don't understand clear data then that's on them. Numbers are absolute, and as I said in the previous post people can come up with whatever alternate reality they want. At best it results in what you stated here..... we will never know. As for the overtake on Sainz, the numbers shown are after the pass. Lewis did not lose ground at all, he made up ground on the VSC, as well as during the overtake on Sainz. Less than 1/4 second between Lewis and Charles became almost a full second though the lap. The only time Hamilton was consistently quicker during the "stint" was the brief period when he had his new mediums on a lap before Charles took the hards, prior to the second VSC.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Ferrari needs to act quickly , to stop drivers second guessing instructions and denigrating the team in public .

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100% agreed. Though the car is not in a good place, with communications as poor as they are they will never perform under any real pressure. They were fighting for 7th and 8th places, and the only thing that got them there was some fortune of the VSCs and who had already pitted.

Right now Ferrari are a hot mess. They have two great drivers and little else. And if they don't reel in the drivers, it will be those drivers sucking motivation out of the team.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

If "professional drivers" don't understand clear data then that's on them. Numbers are absolute, and as I said in the previous post people can come up with whatever alternate reality they want. At best it results in what you stated here..... we will never know. As for the overtake on Sainz, the numbers shown are after the pass. Lewis did not lose ground at all, he made up ground on the VSC, as well as during the overtake on Sainz. Less than 1/4 second between Lewis and Charles became almost a full second though the lap. The only time Hamilton was consistently quicker during the "stint" was the brief period when he had his new mediums on a lap before Charles took the hards, prior to the second VSC.





100% agreed. Though the car is not in a good place, with communications as poor as they are they will never perform under any real pressure. They were fighting for 7th and 8th places, and the only thing that got them there was some fortune of the VSCs and who had already pitted.

Right now Ferrari are a hot mess. They have two great drivers and little else. And if they don't reel in the drivers, it will be those drivers sucking motivation out of the team.

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Though he's had his moments as well , Charles was a good boy this time .

It brought to mind a moment from years ago , when Dennis said "We are racing Fernando." .
It was an incident that could completely sour the whole situation .

Thank you for explaining the numbers behind the debacle clearly .
Lewis is a seasoned professional , but in the seat , he has far less data at his disposal than the pit wall .
A suggestion or a question should be fine , but a petulant "tea" rant is definitely not .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Though he's had his moments as well , Charles was a good boy this time .

It brought to mind a moment from years ago , when Dennis said "We are racing Fernando." .
It was an incident that could completely sour the whole situation .

Thank you for explaining the numbers behind the debacle clearly .
Lewis is a seasoned professional , but in the seat , he has far less data at his disposal than the pit wall .
A suggestion or a question should be fine , but a petulant "tea" rant is definitely not .

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I saw an article where a reporter claims that Lewis stated him and Vasseur had a meeting after the race, and Lewis supposedly told Fred to calm down and not be so sensitive. If that is true, I would expect Fred to put him in his place over the comments and make it clear who runs the show. It was a Planet F1 article, so I'm hoping it's not true.

The pit wall should always make the decision, and driver input should be part of it. But driver input based on "what I think" shouldn't be taken as fact unless it can be proven to be. And emotions have little place in concise communication..... ever.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

If "professional drivers" don't understand clear data then that's on them. Numbers are absolute, and as I said in the previous post people can come up with whatever alternate reality they want. At best it results in what you stated here..... we will never know. As for the overtake on Sainz, the numbers shown are after the pass. Lewis did not lose ground at all, he made up ground on the VSC, as well as during the overtake on Sainz. Less than 1/4 second between Lewis and Charles became almost a full second though the lap. The only time Hamilton was consistently quicker during the "stint" was the brief period when he had his new mediums on a lap before Charles took the hards, prior to the second VSC.

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Wow, professional drivers with several houndred races under their belt that look at these charts for a living are dumb by your statement above. We have to go with you the armchair expert l guess.

I find it hard to reconcile your view with others l have analysed,. When l add the fact that you have a strong anti-Hamilton stance over the years, then l am inclined to say it is what it is, let's move on. On to the next race and more to talk about. Onwards and upwards as they say.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

The pit wall should always make the decision, and driver input should be part of it. But driver input based on "what I think" shouldn't be taken as fact unless it can be proven to be. And emotions have little place in concise communication..... ever.

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The Ferrari pit wall has screwed over Charles so much in the last couple seasons I'm sure he doesn't have much faith in it either. You rely on numbers a bit too much I think and not enough on the experience of those behind the wheel. Perhaps we should save a bunch of money and fire all the drivers, you know, just run the cars "fly by wire" from behind the pit wall.

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Originally Posted by Used to be Starter

The Ferrari pit wall has screwed over Charles so much in the last couple seasons I'm sure he doesn't have much faith in it either. You rely on numbers a bit too much I think and not enough on the experience of those behind the wheel. Perhaps we should save a bunch of money and fire all the drivers, you know, just run the cars "fly by wire" from behind the pit wall.

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It may sound far-fetched, but it would not be long before that concept happens: driverless racing with real-size F1 race cars. With AI tech, this is very possible. I would venture to wager that a formula based on this concept may be introduced within the next ten years.