Non champions

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Parabolica

I also never bought into the Pironi-as-a-pantomime-villain myth, as pedalled by Nigel Roebuck. In deed, I always suspected that the likes of Roebuck had already found Pironi guilty of being French long before the Imola incident and was more than happy to crucify him on a one-sided, uncorroborated, statement from Villenueve.

There was no Divine actions on the Saturday at Hockenheim in 1982. Just a man in agonising pain. Sadly.

---

Fairly or not, legions of Villeneuve fans do hold Pironi partly responsible for his death. While GV was the consummate team player, the same cannot be said of Pironi. After faithfully following Scheckter home at Monza in 79, GV totally outraced him in the remaining two races, ending with a 2nd in Canada and a win at Watkins Glen. Expecting something similar from Pironi, he was bound to be disappointed.
Alastair Caldwell of McLaren is quoted (Motor Sport 5/2012): "It was tragic what happened with Pironi.In a team like McLaren that would never have been allowed to escalate like it did. In the end it was a disaster".
Mostly forgotten now, but Ferrari won the Constructors title in 82 despite losing both their top drivers. missing some entries and using 4 different pilots. With a bit more management discipline, surely the drivers title could also have been capped by GV.

In the end, his own mini second decision ended his life, but from all his choices in race cars, road cars, helicopters, even snowmobiles, he never seemed one destined for savouring his grand children.

If GV had lived, the rule changes for 1983 may have suited his style more than the ground effect cars, and he could have had maybe 2 titles to his name. I'm not sure if he would have stayed at Ferrari, especially with their erratic form in the following years. But I can't imagine him in anything else. His approach was uncompromising, and as mentioned he perhaps needed better managing, but the way he drove ensures that we still talk about him 30 years on. I am too young to have seen him race but he is one of my idols

It can be argued Gilles was naive at handling Pironi at Imola. In the previous season Carlos Reutimann disobeyed team orders (and also broke his contract) and stole the Brazillian GP from Alan Jones - Carlos too could have been champion that season.

Gilles was offered to drive for McLaren for 1983. It would have been interesting with the repercussions of Prost and perhaps Senna.

Haven't read every post so apologies if these drivers have been mentioned

Carlos Reutemann - should have won in 1982 instead of Rosberg, but the Falklands War nonsense intervened. Gilles Villeneuve and/or Didier Pironi both probably should have won in 1982 but for tragedies. Possibly add the name Gerhard Berger to the list as well. And Chris Amon - plenty good enough to win multiple championships let alone races.

In an idle moment I had a look at the 'virtual podium' (top 3) in each world championship. It was surprising just how many were past or future champions - including several complete 'podiums'. There were about 20 with a single 'podium' appearance, which is too many to list. The multiple appearances were:

Two
Berger
Brooks
Massa

Three
Barichelllo
Ickx
Patrese
Peterson

Four
Coulthard
Reutemann

And Moss with seven, ironically his favourite number

A couple of surprises there and a couple of surprising 'did he get only one' drivers.


(My apologies if I've miscounted any of them.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by D-Type

In an idle moment I had a look at the 'virtual podium' (top 3) in each world championship. It was surprising just how many were past or future champions - including several complete 'podiums'. There were about 20 with a single 'podium' appearance, which is too many to list. The multiple appearances were:

Two
Berger
Brooks
Massa
Regazzoni (as D28 pointed out)
McLaren ( - ditto - )

Three
Barichelllo
Ickx
Patrese
Peterson

Four
Coulthard
Reutemann

And Moss with seven, ironically his favourite number

A couple of surprises there and a couple of surprising 'did he get only one' drivers.


(My apologies if I've miscounted any of them.)

---

Most interesting. Without checking any of it myself, this would appear very much to confirm the views of those who feel strongly that it's not always about the points. Trouble is, this can be 'proved' however one wishes to look at it.

Why has Takumo Sato been left out here :p :

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by D-Type

In an idle moment I had a look at the 'virtual podium' (top 3) in each world championship. It was surprising just how many were past or future champions - including several complete 'podiums'. There were about 20 with a single 'podium' appearance, which is too many to list. The multiple appearances were:

(My apologies if I've miscounted any of them.)

---

As I understand your analysis, I believe Clay Regazzoni would qualify, as he finished 3rd in 1970 and 2nd in 1974. He was a very thorough backup pilot to Ickx and Lauda at Ferrari (4 wins) and also took the win for Williams at the 79 British GP.

Sorry! I missed Regga out - by accident I assure you.

Very interesting analysis which for me shows that in most years the deserving driver did emerge as WC. The cream does tend to rise to the top in F1.
Usually 1958 is cited as an exception given 4 wins to 1 for Moss vs Hawthorn. Looking at the stats it is clear that Hawthorn was a model of consistency. Under a slightly different scoring system Moss could have been champion. The differential between 1st and 2nd was only 33% (8-6) at the time, currently it is 25-18 or 39%. Applying the 1961 system (9-6 or 50%), Moss would have scored 45 with his 3 FLs. to Hawthorn's 43. However, only the 6 best results counted and Hawthorn actually scored 49 points having to discard 7 points (8 under the 61 system). So under a revised point system Hawthorn still could have won__ if all races counted. Of course the system was understood by both. I think the case for Hawthorn being somewhat undeserving is not as clearcut as appears at first glance.
I don't recall the circumstances of Moss intervening with the stewards on Hawthorn's behalf which also may have cost him the championship. Suffice to say sporting conditions were different in the era.

After 1958 Moss never again raced with a factory team, lessening any further chances for a world title. Perhaps it wasn't his single minded goal.

Not to nit pick at all, but Bruce McLaren also was on the WC podium in 60 and 62 and should be on the original list.