Should the military always be loyal to the government?

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Originally Posted by Eki

Although the Finnish officers are not allowed to take part in the politics, they have traditionally come from upper or middle class families with anti-communist and anti-Soviet attitudes, so it's not hard to imagine where their loyalty would have been.

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You say it like being anti-soviet and anti-communist is a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

You say it like being anti-soviet and anti-communist is a bad thing.

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If your job is to prevent attacks against the Soviet Union through Finland, it might be a bad thing and prevent you from doing your job properly.

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Originally Posted by Eki

If your job is to prevent attacks against the Soviet Union through Finland, it might be a bad thing and prevent you from doing your job properly.

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What if your job is to shoot jews and you refuse. Is that a bad thing? (actually, I probably shouldnt ask something like that from you).
Exchange jews for just people.

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Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior

The only thing that would surprise me is you being man enough to admit that you're wrong... when you are indeed wrong - and here you are. Thank you for not surprising me.

You can act the dog chasing its tail for as long as you care to. But the fact remains: the first loyalty of the National Guard is to the Constitution of the United States of America. Why is something so incredibly simple so incredibly difficult for you to comprehend??? Is there some dark, sad secret that you want to share with us? In the real world, where the sky is blue and the sun rises in the east, that is an undeniable fact. You trying to back peddle and create pretzel logic scenarios does not negate that fact.

And your continued wiggling is exactly what I expected when I corrected you, and was actually the reason why I did it. I thought there was a chance (slim though it might have been) that even you would accept and acknowledge an obvious error in your statement (or just ignore the correction). But no, not our boy Bob. He would argue with a cat that he's really a dog. :rolleyes: If nothing else, you are consistent, Bob. I will give you that much.

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Damn you can rattle on; now look at the title of this thread.

There, now the Natonal Guard, and the regular Army, are supposed to ABOVE ALL ELSE, obey the first lne of their pledge, PERIOD.

NOW, who would control the regular Army, if the **** hit the fan, I really do not know.
I imagine it would split between those loyal to their pledge and those simply following the controlling President.
As this would be a National Emergency, under national emergencies the Governors of the States LEGALLY have control over their National Guardss, period.
Now Eki asked a good question who do the soldiers obey, or rather who will their commanders obey, and or, will they follow.

By U.S. law the Constitution SUPERCEDES,(that is why that Amendment dealing with militias and peoples right to bear arms exists) any and all other powers, which especially as we are speaking of who commands what when the government abandons the Constitution, any and all other laws or persons; therefore when the powers in Washington are the domestic enemy, the Governors assume full control of the National Guards.

Here is where Eki has a good question, the National Guard is under the control of the States, until mobilized for fighting foreign wars by Washington; when the fighting is against Washington, who do they follow?

Washington has the right to mobilize the Guard for combat, but it doe not have the right to mobilize it for combat against its own citizens, the States can do so though, who should they follow?

In the fairly recent past some, governors have tried to prevent their Guards from going off to fight a "police action", but the courts have sided there, that the States cannot prevent the Fed. from mobilizing the Guard for that.

Now in any actual internal conflict the Supreme Court would be near useless, but it would be interesting to hear how they would rule, or if they wold simply follow the Constitution.

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

What if your job is to shoot jews and you refuse. Is that a bad thing? (actually, I probably shouldnt ask something like that from you).
Exchange jews for just people.

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In a war, a soldier's job often is to shoot people, at least enemy soldiers. If you don't do it, you're not doing your job properly. It's not necessarily easy if you don't see those you're supposed to shoot as enemies. The Finnish soldiers found that out the hard way when in autumn 1944 they were told to turn their guns at Germans, who had been their brothers of arms:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapland_War

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During the first few weeks the withdrawal of Germans and advance of Finnish troops was organised jointly by the headquarters of both armies, a fact that was kept secret from the Soviets. The Germans fell back according to a common timetable, and the Finns attacked and fired at the empty trenches. After two weeks the Soviets realised the deception, and demanded the Finns conduct immediate heavy action against the Germans.

Invasion of Tornio
Fighting intensified when the Finns made a risky invasion from the sea on 1 October 1944 near Tornio on the border with Sweden. Heavy combat lasted for a week, and the Germans were forced to withdraw.
At the onset of the Tornio invasion, Finnish troops took about one hundred Germans as prisoners of war. In an effort to free them, Rendulic ordered Finnish civilians to be captured as hostage. Starting on the 1st of October 1944, Germans imprisoned 132 persons in the town of Kemi and 130 in Rovaniemi, 24 of them women. General Rendulic sent Major General Mathias Kräutler to the headquarters of the Finnish attack troops in Tornio, to deliver a letter to Lieutenant Colonel Wolf Halsti. He demanded that the Germans POWs must be freed, or the Finnish hostages would be shot and the Kemi pulp mill burned down.
Halsti conveyed this message to Lieutenant General Hjalmar Siilasvuo, commander of the Finnish III Army, who refused all bargains or deals with the Germans. Halsti delivered this reply, adding that should anything happen to the civilian hostages or to the mill, he would personally order all the German POWs held by his troops to be shot, together with all German staff and patients of the German military hospital in Tornio.
With this firm Finnish reply, the Germans dropped their threats, and released the Finnish hostages unharmed on 11 October, near Rovaniemi. During the intervening ten days, the situation was carefully followed in the Finnish press, helping to turn the general attitude of the Finns against their former German allies. A popular anti-German attitude intensified when Rendulic ordered scorched-earth tactics, including burning most of the villages and destroying Lapland's infrastructure, .

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

now look at the title of this thread.

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I already addressed the title of the thread with my first post. I've been spending the balance of my time with this supposed American, who I'd say couldn't pass the citizenship test... even if you gave him the answers. :rolleyes:

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There, now the Natonal Guard, and the regular Army, are supposed to ABOVE ALL ELSE, obey the first lne of their pledge, PERIOD.

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Very good, Bob. We'll raise your F to a D-. How's that? :D Knowing how hard-headed you are, I understand that's probably as close as you can come to admitting that you screwed the pooch with your previous foolish claim.

You'd be a great case study for some 3rd or 4th year Psych. student. In my 20+ years online, from Compuserve to now, I can't say that I've ever seen anyone who has become so constipated over admitting that he made an error. You'd rather climb a (tall) tree to further the mistake than just stand on the ground and admit the mistake. It's kind of entertaining to watch. But good grief man... GET SOME HELP!

Shall we drop this now, or do you want to make up some more fun fantasy-facts? :s pinhead:

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Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior

I already addressed the title of the thread with my first post. I've been spending the balance of my time with this supposed American, who I'd say couldn't pass the citizenship test... even if you gave him the answers. :rolleyes:




Very good, Bob. We'll raise your F to a D-. How's that? :D Knowing how hard-headed you are, I understand that's probably as close as you can come to admitting that you screwed the pooch with your previous foolish claim.

You'd be a great case study for some 3rd or 4th year Psych. student. In my 20+ years online, from Compuserve to now, I can't say that I've ever seen anyone who has become so constipated over admitting that he made an error. You'd rather climb a (tall) tree to further the mistake than just stand on the ground and admit the mistake. It's kind of entertaining to watch. But good grief man... GET SOME HELP!

Shall we drop this now, or do you want to make up some more fun fantasy-facts? :s pinhead:

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Get off the pixie dust and take your meds professor, and the nice young men in their clean white suits come and put you to bed.
If you ever come up with points to back your rhetoric, join the real world, those nice young men will wait for you.

Well I can't say it much better so you decide if the military should now act

http://atlah.org/atlahworldwide/?p=8408

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Should the military always be loyal to the government?

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No. They should always be loyal to the country and nation.

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Get off the pixie dust and take your meds professor, and the nice young men in their clean white suits come and put you to bed.
If you ever come up with points to back your rhetoric, join the real world, those nice young men will wait for you.

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Would that be the same pixie dust that causes you to fervently cling to things that are obviously (to most literate, sane people) untrue... like the thing about the National Guard's loyalties? :dozey:

You should have just manned up and admitted your error, instead of dragging this out like a blind dog hanging onto a dry bone.