For those who think Bush is the problem...read.

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Originally Posted by Eki

Neither do Syrians, Iranians and North-Koreans care if other countries like them, at least their leaders don't. You're just like them.

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Which, I think, is a perfectly fair and valid point. But it should be remembered that I don't feel that the US' leaders, with one possible recent exception, would agree with the view that they don't care about what the rest of the world thinks of them. It certainly wasn't true of Reagan or Bush senior, two politicians for whom I would never have voted, but whose manner and style were infinitely more acceptable to more people than merely a particular section of the American electorate.

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Originally Posted by Eki

:laugh: Respect? I used to like and respect the US before Bush. Under Bush I used every opportunity to crack a joke about the US, ridicule it and criticize it.

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Jokes and cracks almost always achieve currency for a reason. No President of whom I can think has done more to destroy the external image of the US, end of story. This is a huge shame, as that view came to mask the many outstanding things about a great country and its people.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

No it isn't! There are still people dying there in an armed conflict that would not have occurred had those who knew it was an awful policy to pursue been listened to. This is what we hear ad nauseam from the likes of Blair whose backing was unconditional: 'Let's move on'. No, we won't, thank you very much. Then there's the view of people such as David Cameron who, for some reason, were naive and misguided enough to support the war in the first place and have now realised the error of their ways but are unwilling to admit their mistake: 'If I'd have known then what I know now about how Iraq will turn out...' Neither is that good enough.

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So the stability of a country run by a meglomaniac who killed thousands of his own citizen for sport is superior to a country with a democratic base being formed, but is still fighting interethnic conflict? Heck, if you want to blame anyone for Iraq, how about the British foreign office that thought three distinct groups in this part of the world can get along in one nation? Where does it stop?

My point is, you can be mad as hell about Bush and Blair going to Iraq all you want, it is water under the bridge. Both are out of power, and both the UK and US have committed themselves to helping this nation find some sort of footing. IT isn't their fault tho that these morons with car bombs and religious/political agenda's cannot get along...

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Once more?

I guess genocide and political repression is peaceful for you. Not Surprising seeing what flag you wave.

The Republic of Iraq is currently seeing it's greatest moment of peace and stability since it's inception in 1958. The only destabilization occurring is from outside interference. Better known as Iran.

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Umm Tony, I wont quibble with your first statement...but the Republic of Iraq was more STABLE under Hussein at times than it is now. Not a fun place to live I grant you, but no one was putting car bombs in markets either.

Most of the fighting I wager is NOT just Iranian influenced, but the Sunni/Shiite dislike for each other. Toss in the fact the Kurd's don't trust the other two, and it is like Yugoslavia's disintegration all over again..

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

My point is, you can be mad as hell about Bush and Blair going to Iraq all you want, it is water under the bridge. Both are out of power, and both the UK and US have committed themselves to helping this nation find some sort of footing. IT isn't their fault tho that these morons with car bombs and religious/political agenda's cannot get along...

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They should have seen it coming. Saddam's mass killings were more water under the bridge, over 10 years had passed since them before the invasion, and they happened because those morons with religious/political agendas couldn't get along. Bush got rid of Saddam, but he couldn't get rid of those morons or the root cause of the problems.

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Originally Posted by Eki

:laugh: Respect? I used to like and respect the US before Bush. Under Bush I used every opportunity to crack a joke about the US, ridicule it and criticize it.

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We don't care if you respect us. The Government of Finland does...that is the only thing that matters when discussing US-Finland relations.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

The flag under my name is the modern flag of post-war Germany. Your point being...?

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That you proudly fly the flag of a people who willingly used Government repression, Terror and Genocide. A people who never willingly gave up the practice but had to be forced.

So why would anyone expect you to think that Iraq is better off now than when they practiced Government Repression, Terror and genocide?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

That is revisionist history. Libya was already cleaning up its act some time before Bush came along. Diplomatic relations with many nations had already been restored and trading links set up. Don't forget, it announced in 1998 that it would be giving up the alleged Lockerbie suspect. It was probably not the right man, but the very action of doing so was a deeply symbolic move.

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It is you who is using revisionist history. The Only reason some European countries were working with Libya is because of Oil. Libya continued down the anti-western path while selling oil to you people.

Europe has a terrible history of turning a blind eye to evil governments that continues to this day.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

We don't care if you respect us. The Government of Finland does...that is the only thing that matters when discussing US-Finland relations.

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Why?

Besides, the government of Finland is elected by Finnish citizens. Finland didn't join the US coalition in Iraq, and the former Finnish Prime Minister Paavo Lipponen had to go when people found out that he had secretly promised Bush that Finland will aid in rebuilding Iraq.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governm...vasion_of_Iraq

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In Finland, Anneli Jäätteenmäki of the Center Party won the elections after she had accused her rival Paavo Lipponen, who was prime minister at the time, of allying neutral Finland with the United States in the war in Iraq during a meeting with President George W. Bush. Lipponen denied the claims and declared that "We support the UN and the UN Secretary-General." Jäätteenmäki resigned as prime minister after 63 days in office amid accusations that she had lied about the leak of the documents about the meeting between Bush and Lipponen. This series of events was considered scandalous and it is named Iraq leak or Iraq-gate. The main point was that special advisor of President of Finland had leaked series of documents which were considered secret. Special advisor Martti Manninen gave these secret documents to Anneli Jäätteenmäki, who used information provided by these documents to accuse Paavo Lipponen of supporting the Iraq war. The secret documents included a memo or memos of discussions between George W. Bush and Paavo Lipponen. Later on criminal charges were pressed against Martti Manninen for leaking secret documents and against Anneli Jäätteenmäki for incitement and aid to the same.
The Finnish government stated that they took a stronger stand on the Iraq question at a meeting chaired by President Tarja Halonen. The meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Foreign and Security Policy issued a statement according to which the use of force against Iraq would not be acceptable without the authority of the UN Security Council. [18] [19]

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Furthermore, the Finnish President Tarja Halonen later said in the UN that the invasion was illegal:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...s-inspectors/2

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Other leaders who followed Bush to the microphone declared the invasion illegal, echoing UN Secretary General Kofi Annan's similar statement in an interview last week.

Saying there was no alternative to unified international action on security issues, Finnish President Tarja Halonen told delegates, "Some nations resorted to the use of force, which was not compatible with international law."

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Originally Posted by Eki

Why?

Besides, the government of Finland is elected by Finnish citizens. Finland didn't join the US coalition in Iraq, and the former Finnish Prime Minister Paavo Lipponen had to go when people found out that he had secretly promised Bush that Finland will aid in rebuilding Iraq.

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You don't get the point.