Universal Health Care Reform in the United States

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

Free government-provided health care for all can work, at least in small countries. We here in Finland have it and we have, for example, one of the lowest infant mortality rates in the world. I couldn't imagine people here accepting a situation where somebody would not get treated because he/she didn't have an insurance. But the US is so huge, can they afford free health care for everybody?

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On paper, it's just like that. Seems good but reality is a bit different. Why else they call them "arvauskeskus" ? In capital area of Finland, health centers are reducing their services. The payments for doctors are so low that many native doctors choose the private factor so who work at health centers, immigrants and students. The services are not top quality, the waiting lines for doctor's appointment are getting longer and longer. So no wonder that all the filthy rich ones, like me, are choosing private services which are more expensive or if your work provides it, occupational health care.

I'm not ass-kissing the US but I don't want the foreign to get too rosy picture about what we have. It's going to be a difficult task for US goverment and even they'd succeeded, I fear it might be very vulnerable of any economical and political changes.. at least for starters.

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Originally Posted by Starter

You're obviously baiting the question. Few have had the opportunity to read the entire bill (1200 plus pages, when was the last time you read 'War and Peace' and then had to give a detailed report on the contents?). Though as more time goes by, more will have that opportunity and more truth will be available for people to consider. This bill was attempted to be pushed through the Congress before the summer break when few if any of the legislators had any opportunity to read it --- much less time to consider and debate the ramifications of each part of that 1200 pages. That is NOT good governance no matter what system you're working under.

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Then debate the bloody thing. That is why you pay legislators and politicians isn't it? Just because something is big and hard to read doesn't mean that it isn't useful and/or valuable.
Title 26, better off known as the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, is just on 16,000 pages long, but without that piece of legislation the country would be unworkable.
Most people have little to no idea how the components of their car works either, but under the logic you've just imposed, then no-one would ever drive anywhere.

What the heck are the House of Representatives and Senate for anyway?

Wow.

So much ignorance.

All these people from countries that have socialized medicine criticizing us in the US who don't want it and yet every day 1000's of people hop on planes around the world to come to the US for healthcare.

The USA has the best healthcare on the planet.....bar none.

out of the 40 million in the US(estimate) without health insurance about 14 million are Illegals. They can go back from where they came from which in all probability has Universal healhcare.

Another 15-20 million choose not to have Health Insurance by choice. They would rather make payments on a BMW I guess.

The rest still get medical care by law. They just have to pay for it later.

So what is the problem?

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

The USA has the best healthcare on the planet.....bar none.

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In 2004 (the latest year that data are available for all countries), the United States ranked 29th in the world in infant mortality, tied with Poland and Slovakia.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db09.pdf
- US Dept of Health and Human Services
This is the worst in the OECD.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...edicine_09.pdf
imedical problems contributed to at least 46.2% of all bankruptcies

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/337/jul21_1/a889
The United States ranked last across a range of measures of health care in a comparison of 19 industrialised countries, despite spending more than twice as much per person on health as any other of the countries, says a report published last week.
- British Medical Journal, 21 July 2008

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

The USA has the best healthcare on the planet.....bar none.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

In 2004 (the latest year that data are available for all countries), the United States ranked 29th in the world in infant mortality, tied with Poland and Slovakia.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db09.pdf
- US Dept of Health and Human Services
This is the worst in the OECD.

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So? What does that have to do with healthcare. All it means is that we have some stupid mothers.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...edicine_09.pdf
imedical problems contributed to at least 46.2% of all bankruptcies

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So? Like I said......Everybody get essential medical care by law.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/337/jul21_1/a889
The United States ranked last across a range of measures of health care in a comparison of 19 industrialised countries, despite spending more than twice as much per person on health as any other of the countries, says a report published last week.
- British Medical Journal, 21 July 2008

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The best costs money.

The USA HAS THE BEST HEALTCARE BAR NONE!

I think the real issue is the people know that unless the Gov't in Washington stops spending money like they can just print more, they know they cant afford this type of reform. Furthermore, they know countries like Canada who have nothing BUT gov't healthcare have many citizens come south for private care in the US if the lineup is getting longer than they would like.

I have lived in nothing BUT Socialized healthcare, and I wouldn't say it was bad, but too many Americans don't understand it isn't "Free". Obama isn't telling THAT side of things. There hasn't been an honest debate ANYWHERE o what this bill is about near as I can tell. I think this is just a pretext for a elite few liberals in America trying to ram through their utopia, and getting mad because people aren't buying it.

They need reform in the US, NOT wholescale socialization of the US healthcare system.

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Originally Posted by Starter

When you, and others, took your business down the road to someone else.

I can't speak for other countries, I don't live there. My experience with the US government is that it rarely does the right thing and never does it economically. Those faceless people in a warehouse somewhere? What exactly will you get with a (US) government run system? Faceless. overpaid federal employees with tenure and no accountability.

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Well I live in the real world, and in the real world there is sweet fawk all difference between one insurance company and the next, one gas station and the next and one phone company and the next or bank or chain store etc.

In the real world nearly every consumer product and service are de facto
oligopolies all watching each other like hawks for a 2 cent advantage or worried they'll loose business if they're 2 cents over.
My experience with the US and multi-national corporations is that they rarely do the right thing and never does it economically for anybody but themselves.

So aside form the once theoretical ability, in a simpler time maybe 150 years ago, to walk down the road and take your business elsewhere--and theoretically, by not spending you $1.50 for some nails or paint or molasses, register you unhappiness, there is no accountability, even the threat of no money for even huge corporations run by $25,000,000 a year (salary plus options) executives doesn't scare the big Multi-nationals.

In the real world which has evolved while you and millions like you have been repeating old storybook tales long since discredited, maybe you didn't notice but even if they (those $25m exec) can't make money, they just stick out their hands and we give them money. Over a trillion dollars all told now...


You really think they care if you take your business elsewhere?

Grow up.
Get real.
Obama's plans don't go far enough, it's like he said in a different context: You can put lipstick on a pig, and it's still a pig.

I will give one example for all you Americans who keep repeating this tired bullsh!t about Government inefficiency. And I want you to explain to me something.

Seattle Washington and Vancouver Canada only 200kms apart. Very very similar ethnic and socio economic factors, similarly both very healthy and outdoorsy, similar Metropolitan area, similar diet (except those Commie socialist Red bastids have yummy HP Sauce on the table at eating establishments, and we have watery ketchup. And they are all Sossi commies, why ever notice what color the leaf is in their flag? Explain that!), and the University of Washington Hospital---where I have received several times both good and at another time indifferent treatment---and University of British Colombia Hospital are roughly equal size, see very similar numbers of patients getting very similar treatments---which one would reasonably expect with all the similar demographics.
In 199~~whatever toward the end, UW Hospital had a billing staff of 47 or 50 something AND some slimey Director of Billing or some such poof thing "earning" over 150-160,000 p.a.

UBC Hospital had a billing Department total of 2.

So you loyal freedom™ loving Americans who ENDLESSLY SAY how inefficient the Government always is, 'splain that

Dirty filthy Commie Red Canadian Socialists being suppressed by the burden of their inefficient Stalinist Government with 2 average salaries to pay, versus
the lean and mean Super efficient, Best Health care in the World, and certainly 2 times as expensive as the next,

with around 50 salaries to pay PLUS the parasite Director making 6-7 times the average wage: How is America's business model more efficient?

Maybe "Freedom isn't Free"? fawk yeah!

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Wow.

So much ignorance.

All these people from countries that have socialized medicine criticizing us in the US who don't want it and yet every day 1000's of people hop on planes around the world to come to the US for healthcare.

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Yeah so much ignorance...

All the Americans whom go abroad for healthcare, because its cheaper and they get the same if not better treatment and care...

Its called medical tourism..check it out....

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Originally Posted by A.F.F.

On paper, it's just like that. Seems good but reality is a bit different. Why else they call them "arvauskeskus" ? In capital area of Finland, health centers are reducing their services. The payments for doctors are so low that many native doctors choose the private factor so who work at health centers, immigrants and students. The services are not top quality, the waiting lines for doctor's appointment are getting longer and longer. So no wonder that all the filthy rich ones, like me, are choosing private services which are more expensive or if your work provides it, occupational health care.

I'm not ass-kissing the US but I don't want the foreign to get too rosy picture about what we have. It's going to be a difficult task for US goverment and even they'd succeeded, I fear it might be very vulnerable of any economical and political changes.. at least for starters.

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That's true up to a point, it's not perfect but the level of health care for even the poorest is still relatively high. It's all relative. I've got experience of NHS back when I was working in the UK and we certainly have it better here.

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

This made be giggle.

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArti...33933006516877

“People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn’t have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless,”

What are they on about? Steven Hawking is British! And has said the if it wasn't for the NHS he wouldn't be alive. (The article now has been corrected as the editor realised that they couldn't tell lies and get away with it.)

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It shows the level of ignorance in the entire debate when they don't even know Steven Hawking is British and lives in Britain. He works at Cambridge University!