Exactly what has Ferrari and Red Bull signed up to?

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Originally Posted by thunderbolt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concord...8_negotiations
they can not have it both ways

there has not been a new Concorde Agreement for 11 years it has been updated



now tell me that FOTA have a contract with them

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FOTA haven't, but Ferrari apparently have. I never mentioned FOTA, just the teams who have apparently signed up to the FIA F1 World Championship until 2012

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Originally Posted by tamburello

This is a myth, and one that only those with no concept of corporate contract law would believe.

The FIA have a contract with Ferrari, the FIA also have a contract with FOM the value of which is dependant upon the Ferrari contract, while FOM in turn have a contract with CVC.

If Red Bull, Toro Rosso & Ferrari do not honour their contractual obligations to the FIA, then they will be liable for the losses incurred by not only the FIA but also FOM & CVC.

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The thing is none of us know what the terms of these contracts are. There may well be a big gap between doing the minimum to comply with the letter of the contract, and genuinely racing to win. Clearly the contracts can't require them to complete races or they would be in breach every time they crashed or broke down. I think it's extremely unlikely that they are required to spend a certain amount of money either. It's hard to imagine what terms there might be that would prevent them putting in a token effort that failed to finish any races.
The clearest indication has to be the Indy tyre fiasco. The teams that didn't want to race felt they could fulfill their contractual obligations merely by completing the formation lap, and none of them got sued by FOM.

Finally, does competing in FIA F1 preclude Ferrari competing in other series as well? Far from certain. They can build A1GP cars, and they can support teams that currently run Ferrari cars in other series. Put those two things together and you can have Ferraris competing in a FOTA series, even if (big if) Scuderia Ferrari are blocked from competing in anything other than F1.

I don't think that Max is as solid on this as he thinks.

First, he publically said that he is fine with the FOTA teams starting their own series. Invited them to do so infact with no threat of a legal challenge.

Second, there has been a breakdown in a working relationship with Max publically calling the FOTA teams Loonies about 10 times in one interview.

He has set himself up for a fall.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Yes, which is what I said....the difference is you think that the penalty will be small, I say that the penalty could be massive.

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That will be up to a law court to decide.


[quote="tamburello"]
Ioan, that is bollocks. Anybody with a contract can sue for breach of contract, non-profit or otherwise.

But they can't claim money as they didn't lose any.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

I don't think that Max is as solid on this as he thinks.

First, he publically said that he is fine with the FOTA teams starting their own series. Invited them to do so infact with no threat of a legal challenge.

Second, there has been a breakdown in a working relationship with Max publically calling the FOTA teams Loonies about 10 times in one interview.

He has set himself up for a fall.

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I think he isn't sure anymore, thus the threats! It's only a bluff, exactly like when he said he can't push back the final date to 1st July and no there isn't any final date at all!

He's been beaten at his own game with his own weapons!
The FOTA anouncing Tuesday night/Friday morning that the go ahead with a breakaway series left him only a couple of hours to show his hand and he had not even a pair of two's.

Does the contract specify the level of participation that Ferrari and Red Bull have to compete at? Wouldn't it be possible for them to put a shell team out there with a two young drivers and essentially run it as an after thought while they put all of their effort into the FOTA program? My bet it is it requires they field a team, but there probably isn't a minimum dollar amount behind that.

Ignore.

Can´t they participate in both competitions? Imagine this: no development, a car that simply follows the rules but nothing more, 2 drivers cruising around trying to save as much fuel as possible, one mechanic changing all the tires, then refueling the car and then giving the driver something to drink and chat a bit, one man with a laptop on the wall playing solitaire... I think the 40 mil cap would be even too big for them :laugh: ...

It is unreasonable but Mad Max is an unreasonable man.
You can´t force a team to stay if they don´t want to stay.
I think Ferrari were right to receive the right to veto the rules if they signed such a contract. You can´t sign something like that and then follow whatever this lunatic comes up with.

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Originally Posted by ioan

That will be up to a law court to decide.

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Indeed.

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Originally Posted by ioan

But they can't claim money as they didn't lose any.

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They can if they are sued by FOM/CVC. FOM/CVC can look for fiscal damages for loss of income from the FIA, and the FIA can then sue Ferrari for causing that loss of income.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

This is a myth, and one that only those with no concept of corporate contract law would believe.

The FIA have a contract with Ferrari, the FIA also have a contract with FOM the value of which is dependant upon the Ferrari contract, while FOM in turn have a contract with CVC.

If Red Bull, Toro Rosso & Ferrari do not honour their contractual obligations to the FIA, then they will be liable for the losses incurred by not only the FIA but also FOM & CVC.

There is such a thing as corporate liability.

Ferrari, Red Bull & Toro Rosso may not like it, they may not wish to honour the contracts, but financially the only way out is to buy out the contract to the value of it and all related contracts.

Which will make any chance of affording a breakaway impossible.

Ferrari's only chance is that a court finds that the FIA have negated the contract by not keeping to the clauses about the veto...but they've already been to court once and failed to get that, quite the oppposite occured.

I'm a Ferrari fan, I'll watch whatever series they end up in, but practically, legally and realistically, there is only one series they will be in.

Now, what form Formula One takes is anyones guess, but they will be in it.

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Yeah, but they don't have to win any race by contract. I think there is no argument over that. So, they could just show up with some kind of a red car do one lap and retire (pretty much like this year).

So, if getting out their contract would be way too expensive, as somebody else said, Bernie can only force Ferrari to show up but that's pretty much ALL Ferrari will have to do.