And where do you draw the line? When is a new version no longer a base model?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
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And where do you draw the line? When is a new version no longer a base model?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
What is the source for this quote?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Sorry mate but just quoting random people from an unnamed forum really means nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
I’ll be pleased to try it if you’re kind enough to mention the source of that quote.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Edited now...
To spice things up: there are rumours confirming both arguments that there will be 2500 GR4 models and 23500 groceriegetters with "no engine", FWD and CVT just sharing the same body.
Prices also known: 33k in Germany, 37,4k for a "circuit pack" with LSDs, fancier seats etc.
Thanks for the link; it’s hard not to be surprised with that info, especialy once the FIA rules (at least the ones I know) don’t mention it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
From FIA article 255 of 1997 appendix J (the year WRC cars were introduced):
Article 255 – Specific regulations for touring cars (group A)
1) DEFINITION
Large scale production Touring Cars
2) HOMOLOGATION
At least 2.500 identical examples of these cars must have been manufactured in 12 consecutive months.
A “World Rally Car” (WR) is a variant of a fixed model of car, previously homologated in Group A and must therefore be assembled like a Group A vehicule.
(…)
https://historicdb.fia.com/sites/def...j_1997_low.pdf
It makes pretty clear that WRC homologation variant must be based on an existing Gr.A model and a Group A model must be produced in 2.500 units.
Btw, it’s important to note that a variant is not a model by itself but an extension, mostly composed by a set of parts, in the homologation form of a base (Group A, in this case) model.
Finnaly, here’s article 031 of the 2020 FIA appendix J / Article 255 A, the specific regulations for WRC cars (WRC Kit Variant):
ART. 031: Original Car - The series production car homologated in Group A on which the WRC kit variant car is based.
(…)
It can be downlowded by googling this:
ANNEXE J / APPENDIX J - ARTICLE 255A – 2020 ... - FiA
Basically, it says the same: WRC is not a model by itself but a variant of a homologated Group A base model; therefore there’s only the need to produce 2.500 units of a Group A car to achieve WRC variant homologation.
"Some homologation specials relate very loosely to their racing cousins, but the GR Yaris is a proper job. The three-door shell and bodywork are bespoke. The roof is lowered by 91mm and made of carbon fibre, and the doors are frameless.
Underneath, it’s a merging of the Yaris chassis at the front, and the Corolla at the rear. This allows for clever double-wishbone suspension and that 4WD system. It even has a manual gearbox.
While the regular white-goods Yaris is built in France, the GR will be made at a specialised Gazoo Racing facility in Motomachi, Japan, using ‘a large number of manual processes’. As well as Gazoo Racing, the GR Yaris also had input from the WRC Tommi Makinen Racing team."
You can see from this how unique the GR Yaris is and totally different in every way from a standard (homologated) Yaris.
It is in essence a Yaris in name only - hence the requirement to make 25,000 units to homologate this new 2021 car.
Further clarification from: https://www.crankandpiston.com/new-t...y-2020-reveal/
"Why go to all the effort and expense of re-engineering things such as the roofline and axles for a homologation special ?
Gazoo Racing’s 2021 Yaris WRC car differs so much from the standard Yaris that this homologation model will need to be produced. In contrast to old Group N WRC rules, which required a limited number of closely related road-going examples to be produced in order to comply (think early Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution or Subaru WRX), today’s rules allow a wider chasm between the road and rally versions.
Venture outside these limitations, as Toyota Gazoo Racing looks to have done, and a far bigger production run is required to homologate the race car.
As such, the GR Yaris will not be limited to just a few hundred units, instead Toyota will need to produce a full 25,000 next year in order to comply with WRC regulations."
Eddie, you can keep posting dozens of quotes from mags and sites but that’s not a clarification once they all got the same media pack from Toyota. What’s needed to clarify this matter is to know the exact FIA rule on which Toyota based the 25.000 units mention on their PR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
I only quote other sources to explain the idea and why I'm not just making this up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
But I get it, you dont want to believe me and be proved wrong.
I give up now - you will see soon.
Jezus mate, we’re all here to have fun sharing and learning about our Rally passion, not to prove anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Fucking hell Eddie. You should have your own thread. It would be easier.
Let’s stop the fuss and enjoy Mexico! Arriba, arriba…
Homologation requirements are not the easiest thing to understand and it is very easy to make a mistake. However, minimum build numbers are clearly covered in Appendix J Article 255 Art. 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
"At least 2500 identical examples of these cars must have been
manufactured in 12 consecutive months.
Unless restriction specified on the homologation form, all
homologations valid for Group N are valid for Group A.
In order for a Group A car to take part in rallies, its characteristics
and the dimensions of its parts must always be less than or equal to
the characteristics and dimensions specified for a World Rally Car
(this does not apply to variable geometry turbochargers of
supercharged diesel engines).
If a Group A car does not originally comply with the above point, it
must, by means of a VO type homologation, conform to the
dimensions and characteristics specified for a World Rally Car, in
order to take part in rallies."
ToyotaUK @ToyotaUK
Mar 13
Replying to
@FastEddie
Sorry for the late response, Eddie! The GR Yaris will be produced at a minimum of 25,000 units for the WRC homologation. Thanks.
Fella, we're beyond this now... There's no doubt Toyota PR put the 25000 number out there. What is in question is why, when people can only quote the rules as saying they only need to build 2500.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Personally I'm inclined to believe they won't only build 2500. This car has involved a lot of redesign and development work for only 2500 cars at such a relatively low price. (Now saying that, in the pre virus world, I'd have been surprised if they only built 2500, now, who knows...)
I've given up trying to explain why it's 25,000.
All believe what you like.
Amen. You’re free to be happy with an answer from Toyota while others will be happier with an answer from the FIA; which will hopefully arrive in due time, probably after more important matters, like the current pandemic crisis, are solved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Toyota Yaris GR WRC ‘21 stops
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/toyot...021-yaris-wrc/
Shame now that they hadn't put the time into an R5 instead... Is it possible their attention could be turned to that in the short term, before focusing on the '22 WRC next year? Otherwise we'll be waiting years for an R5. If the economy completely dives and the Hybrids don't happen, Tommi will have nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira
Well the whole idea of developing a car for just one season was a bit crazy in the first place. Yet Hyundai did the same in 2016. So question is what Hyundai does now, the i20 was supposed to get model change this year so how will they avoid running the old-looking car next year?
They might as well postpone the new i20 also, something quite common in every area this year. The sale of new cars came down 75% at one point and the financial situation getting worse, i wouldn`t be surprised if the lots are already full of new current i20s they need to try and sell first (and a good way to do that is to showcase the current i20 WRC/ R5).
Toyota has 6000 orders for the 4wd GR Yaris 'homologation special' road car. Now it turns out they needn't have bothered making one.
The car could become a valuable collectors item if they dont make any more, as 2021 homologation now isnt required.
So Tommi confrims, that the necessary amount of homologation special is 2500, though he is now not sure Toyota will ever build even that many? Interesting, with 6k pre-orders.
GR Yaris RS ... same body but fwd & 118 bhp !!
Meet 2020’s weirdest hot hatch: the 118bhp Toyota GR Yaris RS:
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/hot...ta-gr-yaris-rs
I think this explains the 2500 figure for homologation of the GR Yaris. This lower-powered RS version (but with the same wide body) would be the 'base car' which they would need to sell 25,000 of.
The de-tuned hothatch was already known and mentioned when we last had this discussion.
Attachment 1953Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
It was only announced on 2 June.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmop
it's like with the Kia Stinger.. Holyyy shi.. 370whp fast family car.. oh, just a random 200whp diesel
I wrote it on 11.03, this thread. As a rumour at that point, true.
It´s only for Japanise market. I think they still have some weird laws there, like maximum speed 160kmh/100mph.Quote:
Originally Posted by TypeR
So it turns out I was right that 25000 of the new 3-door, wide-bodied, Yaris GR needed to be built for homologation.
(But it was also true that only 2500 of this base car needed to be the 4WD version).
For homologation, it is required to sell 2,500 base cars in a consecutive 12-month and 25,000 cars of the entire car line.
GR Yaris is not considered to be the same vehicle series with normal Yaris because their body silhouettes are different. So Toyota has to sell 25,000 GR Yaris. That's why Toyota makes so many GR Yaris and sell them.
In Japan there are 3 lineups in GR Yaris series, RZ, RS and RC.
RZ 1.6L 3-Cylinder Turbocharged direct Injection engine, 6MT, 4WD
RS 1.5L 3-Cylinder Toyota Dynamic Force engine, 10CVT, FF
RC same engine with RZ, 6MT, 4WD, 30kg lighter than RZ. Base car for the competitions.
Pre-order is only for RZ and Toyota has already gotten 6,000 orders.
In Japan, 98.5% of cars are automatic and a few people can drive a manual transmission car, so no wonder that Toyota sells a CVT model.
TGR technical director Tom Fowler interview:
https://www.wrc.com/en/archive/podcasts/
Tommi Mäkinen on the 2021 GR Yaris:
"It is clear that the end of the Toyota GR Yaris WRC is due to the coronavirus . Keep in mind that any vehicle that competes in the World Rally Championship needs 25,000 units to comply with the FIA homologation . It is difficult to answer the question of whether Toyota is now in a position to manufacture this vehicle at such volume.
Along these lines, Mäkinen added: "It has been a great disappointment for everyone , especially for all the people who have worked in the early days of the car and who have seen its full potential in the WRC . Everyone wanted to see how far the car could go. Despite this situation, everyone has been able to see that it was a car for a single year and that, therefore, the hybrid regulations of 2022 are very close and it will not be without work . We have to focus on that too because in a situation similar to the one we have now, the development of the 2022 car cannot be stopped. ”
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/podca...nland-testing/ Makinen part is 20 minutes in...
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/why-t...mpression=true
Toyota was testing driver ergonomics of the Yaris GR last week, that’s why it was running as a second car
They also confirmed the GR Yaris will be the shape of their 2022 car, not an SUV like the C-HR.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
So Hyundai upped their game. (looking at performance of all 3 cars, not just Tanak).
Now what will Toyota do for next year? Hastily restart the development of Yaris GR? Probably not enough time for that. Hope that small upgrades will be enough?
Sure but they (Hyundai) still need three consistent drivers for all 10-12 rounds, the rotation system using is nice but Neuville will need to be in his game each event alongside Tanak if they want to claim another title...but this is way way way to early to speculate for next year, we haven't even finished the first event of this (renewed) year.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
https://toyotagazooracing.com/releas...r/0922-01.html
Quote:
TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION ANNOUNCES APPOINTMENT OF TOMMI MÄKINEN AS A MOTORSPORT ADVISOR
September 22, 2020
Tommi Mäkinen* will be appointed as a Motorsport Advisor to Toyota Motor Corporation (Toyota) from January 2021, with the aim of further advancing the manufacturing of ever-better cars.
Behind the appointment is Tommi Mäkinen’s impressive contribution to the supercharged re-ignition of Toyota's World Rally operations from 2017. Tommi Mäkinen and his team of professionals at Tommi Mäkinen Racing Oy helped Toyota to develop a highly competitive rally car and also built the team, TOYOTA GAZOO Racing World Rally Team, to run it at the highest level of world rallying, the FIA World Rally Championship. Already in 2018, the second year after their return, Toyota earned the manufacturers’ world championship title, and in 2019 they won the drivers’ and co-drivers’ world championship titles.
With this expertise, Toyota is sure Tommi Mäkinen is capable of contributing in even wider fields of motorsports, such as the development of motorsports-bred GR vehicles, strategic planning of motorsport activities, and driver talent development. Appointing him as a motorsport advisor of Toyota Motor Corporation, the brand is looking forward to his advice on strategy formulation and organizational operations.
Consequently, the WRC project built by Tommi Mäkinen Racing Oy - TOYOTA GAZOO Racing WRT and the design and development of World Rally Cars - will be managed directly by Toyota. From 2021 on the WRC operations will be run by TOYOTA GAZOO Racing Europe GmbH, the Toyota group company responsible for the core functions of Toyota motorsports in Europe. We plan to benefit from Tommi Mäkinen’s resolution, learning from his world-leading vehicle development know-how, cultivated at TMR, in order to link this to specific business development. We will also further strengthen our systems, including the acceleration of practical training of human resources. Still, TGR WRT continues its activities both in Finland and Estonia as it has been, using the existing human resources and some facilities originating from TMR.
QUOTES
Tommi Mäkinen, managing director and owner of Tommi Mäkinen Racing Oy
The goal of the Toyota WRC-project was to re-start the world rallying operation effectively with the flexible organization which only a small company can achieve.
I am happy to say that this goal has now been reached and it is time for me to move on to new challenges with Toyota. I want to thank Akio Toyoda for trusting me with this project and supporting us all the way to reach the goals we set together. I am looking forward to continue the work with him, designing the future of Toyota in motorsports.
We are happy that as planned Toyota now decided to acquire the WRC-operations we have built together and I am also very happy of the way Toyota provides our experts with a steady home and future as TOYOTA GAZOO Racing World Rally Team. It is also important to me that operations will still stay in Jyväskylä and Tallinn, while the TOYOTA GAZOO Racing Europe takes the team under its wing.
Akio Toyoda, President of Toyota Motor Corporation
It was only after I met Tommi that I was able to decide on Toyota’s return to the WRC.
It is because of his support that we are able to win at the WRC. And by leveraging his expertise, we were able to create the GR Yaris, a 4WD sports car.
Going forward, he will be our motorsports advisor.
In addition to providing expert advice on how to win races, as he has been doing, we expect him to provide a broad range of advice so that Toyota can produce ever-better cars.
Even after the appointment of this role, the fact that he will continue to be my driving instructor will not change.
“Tommi, let’s drive together again!”