Saddam Hussein Hanged

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Woodeye, The US didn't create terrorists.

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That we'll have to disagree on. I think with all the acts with Palestinians vs. Israel conflict, acts in Libya and with Iran are a great resource for breeding terrorists. I'm not saying US is creating them, I try to say that the agressive way that US has chosen agains muslims will give religious leaders in muslim countries great opportunities to direct young men and women to the path of hatred against US and it's allies.

Treat the other the way you would like to be treated. If US constatly attacks agains some Arab -nation it will surely rise some acts against itself in some another country. Muslims are "brothers". If a brother is under attack in somewhere the others will try to help agains the attacker.

A question for you: If someone blows a Humvee in Iraq does that make him/her a terrorist? Or someone who fights against occupier? Were the French underground army during WW2 terrorists when they blew up German trains and stuff like that?

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Islamic facists are a corruption of Islam. Anyone that doens't believe in their narrow view of Islam is a non-believer of their cause and are ripe for killing. You think the US created them?

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First sentence is totally true, I completely agree with that. Most Islamists are good and peace locing people. Unfortunately there are facists also. And the recent acts of US surely don't help to reduce the quantity of these.

The thing that seems to be missing from US is that they think that they act like liberator. That maybe true from their point of view, but when seen from another point of view, they act like a occupier.

And I still haven't heard a people who likes someone to occupy his land.

Woodeye, you are right, most people don't want a conquering force in their country on the pretense of it being for their "own good". That said, if you want the US to leave, just let the burgeoning Iraqi government get a handle on things. The US started down this road in Iraq as part of the so-called war on Terrorism. Remember one thing. The terrorists attacked the US on 9/11. It was NOT something anyone in North America will ever forget. It shook the US to the core. One thing though about Americans, they don't take being attacked lying down. They don't like people who make excuses for terrorists and they tend to look at the world as either being with them or against them. It is pretty simple to see who was against them. So they went to Afghanistan and then they for reasons known to many and not agreed with, went to Iraq. They didn't invade Kuwait, they didn't attack Saudi Arabia, Syria or Egypt. IT isn't a war on Islam. It is a war against a dictator who was very willing to invade two of his neighbours in 11 years. Now you can say that it is a stupid war, hell all wars are stupid. They went there because the feeling was Saddam was part of the problem in the mideast. I would say he wasn't the problem for terrorist cells but I am of the opinion before long, he would have been. He was an active backer of Hamas, and while Bin Laden had no connection in Iraq, tell me he wouldn't love a state sponsor.

Listen, I have no doubt that the Americans dont' make great policeman in the world. I don't think however that your stance that the US is creating more terrorists and I don't think you defend terrorist actions against a soverign nation. Now, you say the Maquis in France in WW2 and those fighting the Americans in the streets of Iraq are the same thing? An argument could be that in the sense they are. Here though is the difference. Woodeye, the people who were fighting the Germans were fighting for a free and democratic France. That was what was there before the Germans invaded. In Iraq, well when you have civilians being beheaded, Sunni car bombs in Shiite neighbourhoods, Shiite car bombs in Sunni neighbourhoods, and all out attacks on Iraqi citizens who joined the police and army, then you have chaos. Make no mistake, the US would love to get the hell out of Iraq. This isn't an occupation for the sake of keeping Iraq. Both Bush and his foes politically in the US (who are as vocal as you) would love the US to be out of Iraq. If the shooting, looting and actions of "Al Quaida in Iraq" came to a stop tomorrow, the US would be leaving the country so fast it would make your head spin. Yet the attacks continue, as if it will prove something. Iraq will get their country back. The US didn't keep Japan any longer than it took to rebuild their infrastructure, and they didn't keep any other possessions they attained through war for any longer than they had to establish order. Order by democratic principles I might add, surely something that is not sinister.

So is the people who are attacking the US Army in Iraq terrorists? I say yes only because of the manner they attack anyone who gets in their way, and by their methods. If you think being a terrorist is just being a freedom fighter, then you have to also accept that the goal of the terrorist must also be considered. If the ultimate goal of your actions is to just kill and maim to drive out your enemy, and you are happy to kill those ostensibly on your side, you are a terrorist. The Maquis didn't kill Frenchmen for a hobby, they fought the Germans. You cannot say the same for the perpetrators of the the terror being inflicted in the Sunni Triangle. Note also, Shiite districts in the south, and the Kurds in the North were quite happy to see the "liberators" It seems not everyone in Iraq sees the US as you do.

Before I go to sleep (it is late here) I add this. This isn't a war for oil. I know that is the favourite shibboleth of the left wing pacifists who would bend over and grab their ankles for the likes of Saddam. I know that is hard to believe but consider this. The Iraqi government that has been elected by the free elections that were held there (the UN monitored them, and they had a 80% pluraity, so much for the middle east not being able to understand democracy) will be the ones selling the oil. Oil that goes to Western Europe. Not the US . The US gets most of their imported oil from Canada and Venezuela. IF the US wanted the oil, they wouldn't be playing nice and trying to be voice of reason in Iraq, they would round up half the country and imprison them. IF they were bent on conquering a nation for its resources like Saddam Hussein, they would surely do what he did. They are not, and will not. US soldiers wouldn't carry out such orders on a mass scale. A few idiots get in any military of any nation who take the law into their own hands, but the fact remains the US isnt' shy about trying them and punishing them. No, this war isnt about oil, but it is the wealth of Iraq's oil fields that will pay for the rebuilding of Iraq.
If the US really wanted to invade an nation for oil, who truly pissed them off, and a nation to conquer outright, wouldn't Venezuela be a better bet? Of course the US wouldn't, and THAT is my point. They are not colonizers. They may have a culture that pervades the world, but they are not bent on conquest. Americans tradtionally tend to ignore the world. Except when their government does, often the world drags them back in......

[quote="Mark in Oshawa"]The terrorists attacked the US on 9/11. So they went to Afghanistan and then they for reasons known to many and not agreed with, went to Iraq. They didn't invade Kuwait, they didn't attack Saudi Arabia, Syria or Egypt. IT isn't a war on Islam. [quote]

But my point is that is turning to be a war on islam. At least that is the way the Islamic world sees it at the moment.

And I think the US went to Afganistan because that was the most obvious way to go. They bombed the country back from iron age to stone age. And it still is a mess.

And after that Us went to Iraq because they wanted to get rid of Saddam. Ok, they did it maybe because of the reasons that you've written but maybe because of they needed to shown to US citizens that their president is a man of action. maybe the president needed to finish something his father left to be undone. Bush just didn't know, or anyone else for that matter, what mess would that cause. In know that US would like to come out of there. But they need to finish what they've started? How? I have no idea, but I know that neither has Bush or his regime.

Us should try to deal with situation in Iraq asap. After that start to negotiate with islamic contries and try to make the relationships to these countries and islamic church better.

Entering Iran would be their last mistake. And with current president I have doubt that they will do it before his season (last one, luckily) ends.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

No Eki, there are not always nice endings to sad stories.

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I'm well aware of that. On the contrary, I sometimes feel Americans believe the world is a Hollywood movie with a nice ending where they solve all the problems of the world.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

I guess Eki, while I have great sympathy to what happened to Finland in WW2, I still don't believe the decision was made with the idea that it was to screw the Finn's. You might, and it would explain your anti-American diatribes, but it I wont excuse them. Finland is a free nation, with a strong social conscience and free expression. It exists for the most part in 90% of its former territory does it not? I guess that is a world run by diplomatic negotiations, you don't always get what you want.

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90% is better than nothing. Without compromising we would have got nothing. Finland is a free nation, because the Finns wanted it to be and fought for it. Germany didn't help without our acceptance. To accept help was a democratic decision. Germany didn't invade Finland in order to help the Finns, like the Soviet Union claimed to have done in 1939 and the US claimed in Iraq in 2003.

My grandparents went through our Civil War in 1918, two wars against the Soviet Union in 1939-1944 and one against Germany in 1944-1945. I'm grateful that unlike them, I have had a priviledge to live in peaceful times. More talking, less fighting.

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Originally Posted by Eki

I'm well aware of that. On the contrary, I sometimes feel Americans believe the world is a Hollywood movie with a nice ending where they solve all the problems of the world. 90% is better than nothing. Without compromising we would have got nothing. Finland is a free nation, because the Finns wanted it to be and fought for it. Germany didn't help without our acceptance. To accept help was a democratic decision. Germany didn't invade Finland in order to help the Finns, like the Soviet Union claimed to have done in 1939 and the US claimed in Iraq in 2003. My grandparents went through our Civil War in 1918, two wars against the Soviet Union in 1939-1944 and one against Germany in 1944-1945. I'm grateful that unlike them, I have had a priviledge to live in peaceful times. More talking, less fighting.

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Shakespeare said it best concerning you supporters of Saddam and other fascist dictators. Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

FYI people



The Pope says that jihad violence is against God's nature, and officials fear that in response, Muslims enraged by this insult will commit... jihad violence.

This is what the world has to deal with:

• Muslims murder 3,000 innocents in New York and expect no criticism.
• Muslims murder 202 tourists in Bali and expect no criticism.
• Muslims murder 333 schoolchildren and their teachers in Beslan and expect no criticism.
• Muslims murder 292 innocents, mainly Kenyans and Tanzanians at two US Embassies and expect no criticism.
• Muslims murder 241 US and 58 French peace keepers in Beirut and expect no criticism.
• Muslims fire 4,000 Katyusha rockets into Northern Israel killing over
• 50 innocent civilians and expect no criticism.
• Muslims murder 52 in London and 191 in Madrid and expect no criticism.
• Muslims murder 200 in Mumbai and expect no criticism.
• Muslims behead Western hostages in Iraq, Buddhist monks in Thailand and Christian schoolgirls in Indonesia and expect no criticism.
• Muslims murder 500,000 in Darfur and expect no criticism.
• Muslims regard Jews as 'sons of pigs and monkeys', and vow to nuke Israel and expect no criticism.
• Muslims force women to wear hideous sacks, stone to death women for getting raped and for leaving the home unescorted, engage in honor killings of sisters and daughters for unapproved dating, and expect no criticism.
• Muslims danced in the streets and handed out sweets to their kids to celebrate the 9/11 atrocity, and still expected no criticism.
• Since 9/11 Muslims have killed over 26,000 and wounded over 50,000 in terrorist attacks worldwide since 9/11 and expect no criticism.


Since 9/11 Muslims have committed terrorist attacks in Afghanistan, Algeria, Bangladesh, Belgium, Chad, Chechnya, Dagestan, Denmark, East Timor, Egypt, England, Eritrea, Ethiopia, France, Germany, India, Indonesia, Ingushetia, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Jordan-Iraq, Kabardino-Balkans, Kenya, Kosovo, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Lebanon, Mauritania, Morocco, Netherlands, Nigeria, Pakistan, Gaza-Palestinian Authority, Philippines, Qatar, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Scotland, Somalia, Spain, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Syria, Tajikistan, Thailand, Tunisia, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, United Arab Republic, United States, Uzbekistan and Yemen, and still expect no criticism.

Muslims have carried out over 5,800 fatal terrorist atrocities since 9/11, and countless thousands since Islamic conquest began in 623 AD and expect no criticism.

But if a Pope dares to tell the truth about Islam or Danes publish cartoons about Mohammad, then let the outpourings of Islamic hate and outrage begin.

And, by some twisted reach of logic, the arrogant *******s demand the Pope issue an apology!

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Originally Posted by Woodeye

...I mean, if there were blues and reds in Canada who would start a civil war, would you be needing US troops to solve that situation?...

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They would not be welcome, but I think that they would invade our country anyways because of our vast natural petroleum reserves.

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Originally Posted by schmenke

They would not be welcome, but I think that they would invade our country anyways because of our vast natural petroleum reserves.

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Schmenke, first off no one here would have a civil war, because we would talk each other to death here first.

Second of all, we would willingly sell the oil to em as we always have. You myfriend have to quit hanging out with Jack Layton, he too has anti - American fantatsies.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

You myfriend have to quit hanging out with Jack Layton, he too has anti - American fantatsies.

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I have said this before, and I say it again: I'm not anti-American, I'm anti-idiot.