Student Riots

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14th December 2010, 17:47
Bolton Midnight

Quote:

Originally Posted by GridGirl

I still don't understand the point you are trying to make here. I attended a good university, got a good degree classification as a result and later good job but I still consider 98% of my degree to be a waste of time after taking professional exams. In effect there is no difference between my degree and your so called worthless degrees.

In theory shouldn't the increase in student fee's reduce the number of so called 'worthless degrees' that university's are going to offer anyway? £27,000's worth of fees is definately going to make any potential university applicant think longer and harder about what courses they are going to apply for. If universities are struggling for cash, the first thing they should look at is the student uptake of courses and how much they cost to run. If a course really isn't viable they should remove it.

Not to worry, at least it gave you the opportunity to mention your degree again.

Sorry state if you view accountancy from a decent red brick uni as on a par with Peace Studies from the local Poly, and could you do the job you do now with Peace Studies?

But if the degree and/or student are that useless then they won't have to pay a penny back, so those that are just going for a doss will plump for such courses.

But if it dispenses with these pointless degrees then all the better, just makes the Coalition's ideas even better.
14th December 2010, 17:51
BDunnell

Quote:

Originally Posted by GridGirl

I still don't understand the point you are trying to make here. I attended a good university, got a good degree classification as a result and later good job but I still consider 98% of my degree to be a waste of time after taking professional exams.

The same could be said of much that one studies at school. I, for example, consider it a complete waste of time for most people, unless they choose to, to have to carry on doing maths once they know how to add, subtract, multiply, divide, work out fractions/percentages and the other basics. GCSE maths was, for me, a pointless exercise. We would, in my opinion, be much better off with a more flexible educational system as a whole, ensuring that people really know the essentials but don't have to spend time on those subjects they are never going to use again. Off topic, I know, but not unrelated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GridGirl

In theory shouldn't the increase in student fee's reduce the number of so called 'worthless degrees' that university's are going to offer anyway? £27,000's worth of fees is definately going to make any potential university applicant think longer and harder about what courses they are going to apply for. If universities are struggling for cash, the first thing they should look at is the student uptake of courses and how much they cost to run. If a course really isn't viable they should remove it.

Therein lies the paradox. These courses already wouldn't exist unless they were viable, and by that I mean well-subscribed and popular. It's the more traditional subjects that are being squeezed. The contradiction here is that this is nothing less than a free market, yet here again we see some of those on the right who believe in a free market suggesting that such courses shouldn't be allowed to exist.
14th December 2010, 17:53
BDunnell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolton Midnight

But if it dispenses with these pointless degrees then all the better, just makes the Coalition's ideas even better.

But it won't, because, as I said in my post above, these courses would be cancelled if take-up wasn't sufficient. The fact they exist and the fact they attract students is down to the sort of free market principles that you presumably support to the hilt.
14th December 2010, 18:11
schmenke

Quote:

Originally Posted by skc

Elite from an educational point of view. It's also true that elite reflects social standing, earning potential and career. More people from the "elite" have degrees than those in working class positions.
...

I’m still not grasping this concept. To suggest the association of university education to social class is absurd. Perhaps “elite” is a poor choice of words?

Quote:

Originally Posted by skc

...
I thought this was a given otherwise why would people strive to go to Uni? Honestly, I can accept people having different views but do we have to go so "Janet and John"?...

Nope, still not grasping what you’re trying to say. People go to university to pursue a chosen profession, a by-product of which may be a higher income bracket.
What’s “Janet and John”? :confused:

Quote:

Originally Posted by skc

...
100% agree and that is why these proposals are so fair. It allows anyone, regardless of social position, to compete based on academic achievement. When has that ever happened before?...

As far as I know enrollment always has, and still is, based on academic qualifications.

Quote:

Originally Posted by skc

...
People from an academic background tend to occupy positions where they define policy such as politicians. Why should people with working calss jobs, people that tend to not have the privilidge and trappings of society, why should they have to pay for the elite.
....

Politicians and policy-makers are voted into office by all eligible voters, regardless of class. “People with working class jobs” are not paying for the “elite”, they are paying for the benefits of a society that makes readily available the services that higher education provides.

Quote:

Originally Posted by skc

...
Society as a whole benefit from everyone that contributes. Doctors and street sweepers or are you saying just because you don't have a degree means you contribute less to society?...

Society benefits from all services. As has been mentioned in this thread, a balance of professions is required to sustain a viable society.

Quote:

Originally Posted by skc

...
We all support higher education. All I suggest (quite uncomprehensibly it seems) is that those that get a financial benefit from a university degree should pay a small proportion of that benefit to ensure the system remains viable.

And as has been said numerous times, those with a university degree do pay; from being in a higher tax bracket, not to mention the personal “cost” of years of study to obtain the degree.
14th December 2010, 18:28
BDunnell

Quote:

Originally Posted by schmenke

I’m still not grasping this concept. To suggest the association of university education to social class is absurd. Perhaps “elite” is a poor choice of words?

There have traditionally been problems in the UK in terms of those from what might loosely be termed working-class backgrounds getting into university. Largely, this has to do with the poor standard of education they get prior to the age of 18 leading to them not getting grades sufficient for university entrance, and that is where inequalities need to be addressed. Universities in Britain have made massive progress since the days when they were reserved for the offspring of the middle and upper classes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by schmenke

Society benefits from all services. As has been mentioned in this thread, a balance of professions is required to sustain a viable society.

Quite right.
14th December 2010, 18:31
Daniel

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDunnell

There have traditionally been problems in the UK in terms of those from what might loosely be termed working-class backgrounds getting into university. Largely, this has to do with the poor standard of education they get prior to the age of 18 leading to them not getting grades sufficient for university entrance, and that is where inequalities need to be addressed. Universities in Britain have made massive progress since the days when they were reserved for the offspring of the middle and upper classes.

Sometimes it's also a crutch for those less intelligent people who simply aren't destined for university as well as being as you say, a throwback to the days when education at a university was actually reserved for those of the higher classes.
14th December 2010, 19:17
Rollo

Quote:

Originally Posted by skc

Society as a whole benefit from everyone that contributes. Doctors and street sweepers or are you saying just because you don't have a degree means you contribute less to society?

Before 1992 there were such things as Polytechnics which which issued certificates for a lot of practical trades. The then Major Government brought them under the auspices of the university system.
Society does need tradies as much as it needs doctors. Plumbers, gasfitters, carpenters, electricians all contribute to society. By the same token, those people need to be qualified enough to do their job and ensure that they don't accidentally kill themselves or other people.
14th December 2010, 19:29
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondo

In general:

Students make excellent protesters because they are enthusiastic, strong and stupid. They do not yet have enough real life experience in the fine art of self support to appreciate the flaws in the Utopian philosophies they were taught in school.

Every time a protest gets out of hand, it is blamed on a "small group of outside agitators". Bullcrap. I never see protesters trying to restrain these agitators and I don't see the protesters stopping their protest and going home once the agitators have started. They feed on each other.

Nobody cares about your protest. When you cause damage to public and private property and interfere with everyday comings and goings you lose the sympathy of the common citizen. The politician doesn't care as long as he gets re-elected to office.

Get used to it. This is merely the tip of the iceberg. Governments can no longer sustain all the social expenditures and riots of this kind will be happening everywhere. While these budget cuts are a start, in truth, massive chunks of government need to be done away with.

You've got to hand it to the Brits. When they show up to a protest they always have very nice, uniform, professionally done signs mounted on new, clean sticks.

In Specific:

I see no reason why someone who stands to benefit the most from an advanced degree shouldn't be expected to contribute more towards obtaining that degree. I don't know too many people that expect to get a Ferrari for the same price as a Ford even though in general use they serve the same purpose.

Jacking the royals was a really bad idea.

As usual, the "students" have done themselves no favors.

You could have simply stated that you don't like students, it would have been more effective.
14th December 2010, 19:34
GridGirl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolton Midnight

Not to worry, at least it gave you the opportunity to mention your degree again.

Sorry state if you view accountancy from a decent red brick uni as on a par with Peace Studies from the local Poly, and could you do the job you do now with Peace Studies?

But if the degree and/or student are that useless then they won't have to pay a penny back, so those that are just going for a doss will plump for such courses.

But if it dispenses with these pointless degrees then all the better, just makes the Coalition's ideas even better.

Maybe your jealous because you don't have a degree. :p Incidently, I could do my job now if I had a degree in Peace Studies. No employer I have ever worked for has openly discriminated on degree course but they have discriminated on degree classification. Does it happen? I don't know, I've not been the one making decisions on whom to employ.

Why are you just focusing on the people you consider to be thick and those who you consider just to be going for a doss. There are going to be people who do not pay their fees back regardless of what degree course they do and where they do it. Some women for example may choose to have a family. They may be in the position when taking account of their partners income that they do not have to go out to work or they may just work part time and will not therefore pay any fees back due to them not earning £21k per annum.

I don't think I should open up the can of worm's that relates to student loans. I have actually paid off my student loan but if I didn't earn £15k per annum I wouldnt need to pay it back. If I hadn't paid it off by state retirement age it would get written off anyway. You can get a student moan regardless of degree course or university you go. It doesn't even matter of you don't complete the course either..... Ponder that for a while. Oh it will make your blood boil. :p
14th December 2010, 19:36
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by skc

Every child in this country is entitled to a level of education. That level allows them to complete GCSE's, A-Levels and vocational courses.

Why stop there?!
The only answer to this question is because you stopped there. Am I right?
If everyone though like you than the world would be populated only by people with medium and low qualification that can hardly do more than sustain the present level of development. Also what would be the level of development without the researchers who helped the society evolve so far?

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