What Happens Next?

What has happened will not change my minds and i know many who will not be changed by "the reality" you seem to be so happy with so get used to it and know that we will never forgive and forget becuz all ChampCar needed was more money and time before RM did the dirty deedz for the traitor. Honda was bailing and TG was failing and there was a consperacy and you know it so tell me how our series that had races with a crowds bigger than Indy and real drivers and more fans and multinational markets needs to be killed to make way for something with dancing drivers and bathing suits that we all know has hardly any real fans and no multinational markets. Those of you who hate "the reality" like I do needs to know that hope is glimmering and the people I speak with who have a plan that will give the true fans what we all seek and desire and will revenge what needs to be revenged so hang on tight yourself. Whats so hard to understand?

There's not enough bandwidth to respond to that, Papyrus. Hope you enjoy some racing somewhere free of conspiracies and money and with REAL big crowds and race in Bahrain and Kuwait and Nairobi.

Papyrus = Paper???

"crowds bigger than Indy", oh please. As much as I have denigrated what has become of the Indy 500 even I don't believe that line for a second.

Please Paper, provide us with some numbers to back up that ridiculous assertion. Hell, I'll even take inflated numbers from the CCWS front office or a promoters office.

"What is so hard to understand?" Delusional people, who don't understand
simple grammar or punctuation.

Gary

"we will never forgive and forget becuz all ChampCar needed was more money and time before RM did the dirty deedz for the traitor."

Right ;) no question about it... it is all RM's fault...

(sarcasm off)

You are kidding right?

You are saying (in laymans terms) that it was a game of poker and RM told everyone that CCWS was bluffing just before TG was going to fold...

Is that why you call him a traitor... do you realize how stupid that makes the owners seem??

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by garyshell

Papyrus = Paper???

"crowds bigger than Indy", oh please. As much as I have denigrated what has become of the Indy 500 even I don't believe that line for a second.

Please Paper, provide us with some numbers to back up that ridiculous assertion. Hell, I'll even take inflated numbers from the CCWS front office or a promoters office.

"What is so hard to understand?" Delusional people, who don't understand
simple grammar or punctuation.

Gary

---

Gary, I doubt very seriously that Papyrus is "Paper". If you'll remember, Paper's essays were always well thought out and eloquently expressed opinions, with some solid eveidence to back it up. Papyrus' response was an emotional outburst.

Robin Miller was not the head of any conspiracy, Papyrus. The Amigos simply got tired of writing checks, and TG didn't (but TG had to hustle on this deal if Honda truly was going to bail after this year). That's the thing with most weathy people, they have this thing about holding on to their money. And if they can better keep it by spending someone else's money, so much the better.

Obviously you're not happy with this result and I understand that. Not everyone was going to be. But I think we have go with the cards we've been dealt and see where it leads. We should have a much better month of May than we've had in years and some true excitement to qualifying. If I have concerns as to how the unification came about, I have even greater concerns that during this war, NASCAR became the synonym of American racing and that's not good. We need to change that, to let everyone know that there is an alternative, and that work must start now.

Chaparral66, I think that Papyrus is just someone goofing on Pat (Paper) Ringly's fanatical postition on all things TG and CC. I also don't agree that Paper's posts on ****wagon.com are reasoned or well written. He is an unbendable extremist who for far too long had the ear of the Amigos and I hold he and his ilk on ****wagon.com partially responsible for prolonging the split by fueling their hate and delusion-based bluff.

It seems that the real "what happens next" happened in December. I do wonder what KK'a mindset was around the time the JDS Uniphase trial ended. I also wonder if he read these and other boards to get a sense of what we natives were all thinking. If he read this monster of a thread (I suspect he and Paulie G-String did) he no doubt got the picture that Sanguin was failing as a CCF thought policeman and the jig was up for the OWRS boys.

Here is what CBS Sportsline reported on how the unification (not a merger) came to be.

Please note who initiated the final unification conversation.

"Cold War ends, but Indy Car only heats up by getting on schedule

Feb. 28, 2008
By Pete Pistone
Special to CBSSports.com

Step 1 is complete, and the long overdue open-wheel unification is over.
Tony George and Kevin Kalkhoven should be commended for finally ending the madness that nearly killed American Indy Car racing.

"It was last fall on the anniversary of my grandfather's death that I was thinking to myself it really had been 30 years ago since the sport of open-wheel racing had been truly unified," George recalled. "Last month when the calendar turned over to 2008, I was wondering if it was possible this could ever happen.

"Lo and behold, I got a phone call that just made me feel really warm. I felt like this was going perhaps going to be the best year of my 48 to have a chance to do something that's very important to me and very close to me, and that is to help bring about the unification of open-wheel racing."
The phone call came from Kalkhoven, and despite several failed attempts to mend fences, this time it actually worked out.

But as both sides admitted in Wednesday's news conference to officially announce the creation of a single open-wheel series, the heavy lifting is about to begin.

"I've said many times that unification itself isn't some sort of magic bullet to be able to get us forward," Kalkhoven said. "It's going to take an awful lot of hard work, and that has already begun."

Let's hope so.

This season will be a hodgepodge to say the least, with three former Champ Car events -- Long Beach, Edmonton and Australia -- wedged into the existing IRL schedule.

The Champ Car teams planning to make the switch, which could be as many as nine operations and up to 12 drivers, will have to change engine and chassis packages pretty much on the fly. And the league, which promised free Dallara chassis and Honda engines to those teams, will need to scramble to find available and competitive equipment.

"The interest level is clearly high at this point in time," said Brian Barnhart, the IRL director of race operations. "You could see anywhere from eight to 12 cars on the grid beginning with the Homestead event. That's absolutely the best-case scenario we could be looking for."

To make that transition as smooth as possible, the IRL has assigned several of its teams to incoming Champ Car operations.

"Newman-Haas will be assigned to Rahal Letterman," said George, a match that will pair up N-H driver Graham Rahal with his father Bobby's IRL team.
"They have some common interests there and we wanted to align those team teams.

"The KV guys will be aligned with Target/Chip Ganassi, so it will be a smooth transition from that point."

But the decision that will ultimately decide the fate of the new unified series will be the schedule, which, according to George and Kalkhoven, will be developed from a clean sheet of paper in 2009.

Anchored by the Indianapolis 500 with several historic and popular tent poles throughout like Long Beach, Australia and Mexico City, the new series has a chance to create an exciting and eclectic schedule that could re-capture the interest of open-wheel fans.

"The Indianapolis 500, with all of its stature, and Long Beach will be two anchor points of what will be an incredibly interesting series," Kalkhoven said.

While Champ Car's direction was toward more road courses and street circuits, the IRL charted a course that was oval-track-heavy, an emphasis George is hoping to continue in the next evolution of the series.

"It's important to me to have a variety of ovals on the schedule," George said. "But international opportunities are out there. We need to look at building a schedule that makes sense from every perspective."

Speculation is a 20- to 22-race schedule will be the end result in 2009, and if George and Kalkhoven are smart, the high-speed oval racing that became the IRL's trademark will comprise a majority of the slate.

The incredible high-speed side-by-side racing at superspeedway ovals like Chicagoland Speedway, Texas Motor Speedway, Kentucky Speedway and Richmond International Raceway made the IRL one of the most exciting series in all of motorsports.

Building on that excitement and the oval-track tradition of Indy Car racing should be the foundation of the next era of the series. Only after a core of oval races are in place should the most popular road course and street circuit events be added, which would create one of the premier circuits in motorsports.

The first step has been taken and open-wheel teams can all come out of the storm clouds and race under one umbrella. Now it's up to George, Kalkhoven and Co. to not just keep Indy Car racing alive, but make it thrive.

"Having one series is for the best, not only for the drivers and the teams, but for the fans," said Helio Castroneves, who now has a chance to once again be known for his driving talent rather than his dancing skills. "It's about time.""

So, it seems that the vast majority of ChampCar's events were indeed losing money in a significant way. It is sad that most will not happen this year or perhaps ever again but it does illustrate what a brazen bluff The Amigos were running during these past four years.

In hindsight it looks to me like Paulie G-String did what he does best back in 2003. He took advantage of the anti-TG hatred he found in dark places on the web and in some corners of the ChampCar paddock. He then tapped into a bunch of delusional rich hobby boys ready and willing to be taken for an egoporn thrill ride. Now that their massive tax right offs no longer make sense, so goes the Champ Car World Series. Their combined arrogance, greed and spite were never going to end up creating anything other than the mess we have today. I have pointed this out to many people over the years. The "Amigos-Uber-Alles" types I spoke with had been completely seduced by the real Dark Side and they spewed back all the irrational things our dear departed Sanguin did before he went missing. Some called me nasty names and others did very damaging things to me personally because I chose not to believe or support all the all lies and spin.

Isn't it interesting how it all turned out? It was never about the racing (and the racing was good sometimes).

Do I feel vindicated? Hell yes!

From my perspective, the OWRS era was all about the ugly side of the human spirit. It is amusing how everyone from KK to Mark C. to certain posters here on these boards have changed their tunes now that reality has caught up with them. So to them, I offer some some advice that I myself will now heed: GET A LIFE!

So, this is probably my last post. Thanks to everyone I met here for caring so much about our beautiful sport. May the years ahead bring the healing and the success we all dream of. Shalom -- Chaim

I hope it is not your last post. It is time to hope that the scramble everyone in the sport must be doing right now will present a good series in '08 and a better one in '09 and set the stage for better TV ratings and more sponsorship.

What happens next? nothing...

IRL still the same, maybe with more cars and more crashs...

Do you really wait something new from TG ???

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChaimWitz

Isn't it interesting how it all turned out? It was never about the racing (and the racing was good sometimes).

Do I feel vindicated? Hell yes!
...

So, this is probably my last post.

---

So was your participation here about the racing or about the "argument"? Now that the "argument" has been more or less settled, you no longer want to participate? What about the racing? Don't loose sight of that! Don't go yet, stick around a while until the first few races are under our belts. Enjoy some bench racing again. You just might rekindle what it was that brought you here in the first place. Ya never know. ;)

Gary

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rpralon

What happens next? nothing...

IRL still the same, maybe with more cars and more crashs...

Do you really wait something new from TG ???

---

Yes, and if you don't why are you here? I am not suggesting you have to love "...king George", god knows I despise the little weasel. I am just saying if your mind is made up and your expectations are that low, why do you come here to this forum. You might find more kindred spirits drowning in their sorrows over on the CCF forums. Most of us here are resigned to the fact that OWRS is gone, and are ready to see what happens next.

Gary

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by garyshell

So was your participation here about the racing or about the "argument"? Now that the "argument" has been more or less settled, you no longer want to participate? What about the racing? Don't loose sight of that! Don't go yet, stick around a while until the first few races are under our belts. Enjoy some bench racing again. You just might rekindle what it was that brought you here in the first place. Ya never know. ;)

Gary

---

CW has become the Forum equivalent of write only memory (WOM).....or hanging chads, disenfranchosed :) (SIC on purpose)

rh

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by garyshell

Yes, and if you don't why are you here? I am not suggesting you have to love "...king George", god knows I despise the little weasel. I am just saying if your mind is made up and your expectations are that low, why do you come here to this forum. You might find more kindred spirits drowning in their sorrows over on the CCF forums. Most of us here are resigned to the fact that OWRS is gone, and are ready to see what happens next.

Gary

---

OK... but I think real IRL fans just want more IRL races like the races they are used to watching. They don't want Panoz DP01, or Road America, they don't know who is R. Dorboos or Bernoldi or Rocketsports. They like Danica, they like Dalaras and they like crashes.

Maybe TG thinks the same and perhaps he isn't worried to catch CC fans (from CCF or not) or revive CART's great days, etc... Probably he only wants to restore the importance of Indy's 500 in the American sport scenario. So waiting some kind of revolution in AOW because the dead of CC and the incorporation of its teams and some of its races in IRL can be nothing more than a waste of time if you don't like IRL as IRL are...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rpralon

OK... but I think real IRL fans just want more IRL races like the races they are used to watching. They don't want Panoz DP01, or Road America, they don't know who is R. Dorboos or Bernoldi or Rocketsports. They like Danica, they like Dalaras and they like crashes.

Maybe TG thinks the same and perhaps he isn't worried to catch CC fans (from CCF or not) or revive CART's great days, etc... Probably he only wants to restore the importance of Indy's 500 in the American sport scenario. So waiting some kind of revolution in AOW because the dead of CC and the incorporation of its teams and some of its races in IRL can be nothing more than a waste of time if you don't like IRL as IRL are...

---

I disagree on all fronts as I think everyone truly knows that the sport needs help and cannot remain the same no matter which side of the fence you sit on. Not knowing who Doornbos or Bernoldi should not be a bad thing, but knowing Rocketsports IS definitely a bad thing :) We all have to give this thing time and even TG said in the first days that he needed to embrace change...we need to encourage that change for a win win for all of us...just my opinion, of course.

No, I don't think TG is counting on a single person from F-Troop or having a CW 'tude to embrace the series and I imagine he fully expects CW to carry on with its hate program until the end of time. He has much more important things to do than try to appease 300 or so of them in the big picture.

Whether his staff had anything to do with it or not, and I don't have a clue one way or the other, Castroneves appeared on a dance show 10 straight weeks in front of 20 million viewers per week. Whoever did that, and I expect it took several staff people from various entities to, wonderful.

200 million viewers in the U.S. of a two-time Indianapolis 500 winner in a TV competition vs. 300 crappies? If I was him, I sure wouldn't worry about 'em. They're loud, but they're few. If they'd have said the same things about me through the years that they've said about TG, I sure wouldn't care about 'em in any way.

As for drivers, a few new ones show up each year. Max Papis just got a ride for Indy with Jason Prietley's team and Max is popular wherever he goes. The new ones like Doornbos, Rahal, Wilson, Power, etc., just hafta make their own way. Bernoldi is apparently out because he doesn't want to run ovals and Gentilozzi said he couldn't make it work for Rocketsports.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rpralon

OK... but I think real IRL fans just want more IRL races like the races they are used to watching. They don't want Panoz DP01, or Road America, they don't know who is R. Dorboos or Bernoldi or Rocketsports. They like Danica, they like Dalaras and they like crashes.

Maybe TG thinks the same and perhaps he isn't worried to catch CC fans (from CCF or not) or revive CART's great days, etc... Probably he only wants to restore the importance of Indy's 500 in the American sport scenario. So waiting some kind of revolution in AOW because the dead of CC and the incorporation of its teams and some of its races in IRL can be nothing more than a waste of time if you don't like IRL as IRL are...

---

"Real IRL fan" ah the magic prejudicial words. What do you know of the real IRL fan, all you know is what you have been spoonfed by the likes of the CCF forum. You wouldn't know a real IRL fan if it came up and bit your... And for that matter neither would I. The point is you have this distorted stereotype that may or, more likely, may not be accurate.

So as I asked before, if "IRL can be nothing more than a waste of time if you don't like IRL as IRL are..." is true, why are you here? What purpose could it possibly serve for you or a "true IRL fan" or those of us who are new to the series and are wating to see how this shakes out.

Gary

The key to AOWR landing the respect it deserves is putting less emphasis on Indy and more emphasis on the entire racing season. Fast-tracking a modified Panoz DP01 for inclusion at Indy would certainly help. Those Dallara's are more than ugly, they are dangerous. Graham Rahal made that very clear when he chose his career path into open wheel.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChaimWitz

So, it seems that the vast majority of ChampCar's events were indeed losing money in a significant way. It is sad that most will not happen this year or perhaps ever again but it does illustrate what a brazen bluff The Amigos were running during these past four years.

In hindsight it looks to me like Paulie G-String did what he does best back in 2003. He took advantage of the anti-TG hatred he found in dark places on the web and in some corners of the ChampCar paddock. He then tapped into a bunch of delusional rich hobby boys ready and willing to be taken for an egoporn thrill ride. Now that their massive tax right offs no longer make sense, so goes the Champ Car World Series. Their combined arrogance, greed and spite were never going to end up creating anything other than the mess we have today. I have pointed this out to many people over the years. The "Amigos-Uber-Alles" types I spoke with had been completely seduced by the real Dark Side and they spewed back all the irrational things our dear departed Sanguin did before he went missing. Some called me nasty names and others did very damaging things to me personally because I chose not to believe or support all the all lies and spin.

Isn't it interesting how it all turned out? It was never about the racing (and the racing was good sometimes).

Do I feel vindicated? Hell yes!

From my perspective, the OWRS era was all about the ugly side of the human spirit. It is amusing how everyone from KK to Mark C. to certain posters here on these boards have changed their tunes now that reality has caught up with them. So to them, I offer some some advice that I myself will now heed: GET A LIFE!

So, this is probably my last post. Thanks to everyone I met here for caring so much about our beautiful sport. May the years ahead bring the healing and the success we all dream of. Shalom -- Chaim

---

Vindicated? About what? We didn't really see The Amigos for who they were until relatively recently. We already knew about TG. We supported The Amigos because they were the ones who came to the rescue of our preferred style of racing. That would have happened whether it was The Amigos or Bill Gates (who could have done it out of petty cash), it was almost incidental who rescued CC.

But even as that was going on, most of us in the CC side were indeed, focused on the racing. We cared about Long Beach, Laguna Seca, Road America, Michigan, Fontana, Milwaukee, Cleveland and the like. We cared about Ford Cosworth Turbo engines and competition from Honda and Toyota. We cared about a strong and relaible TV package that allowed us to see races live and allowed our friends in Canada, Mexico, Europe, and Australia. The politics by its very nature and media reaction had become just as important as the racing, because it wouldn't stop, until now.

Reality having caught up to us? It is what it is. You can either accept it, or be in denial, and speaking for myself, I choose to accept the one series as it now stands. Not much choice. As I told IC, I'm willing to keep and open mind and continue watch, in the hopes that the sport can finally leave this dark episode behind and grow beyond the politics. I also told IC that the new series will have to work very hard to justify it's existence, but I'm willing to give it a chance. I also don't want leave any hard feelings (which I don't have to begin with) that might get in the way of all of us enjoying it and continuing on the forum discussing the events. That's why I also hope this isn't your last post. But this is no time to get cocky about what's happened, we have a duty as fans (since it is clear to me that the brass in both series look at chat rooms) to keep our voices heard with all the passion we can muster. This merger happened in part because we never lowered our voices; we all shouted "ENOUGH!!" That's a good thing. But don't start thinking there was a clear winner in this war, meaning CCWS or the IRL. What we have here is a negotiated settlement, in other words, a draw. The only winner here was NASCAR, and it will stay that way until open wheel racing can rebuild itself.

Gary, defining a "real IRL fan" is probably the various fan groups who meet at the Brickyard Crossing Flag Room each week to watch old racing movies, the guys that hang out at shops on Gasoline Alley and Charlie Brown's on Main Street in Speedway and the various fans who have warmed up to it at Nashville, Texas, Kansas, Chicagoland, Richmond, etc.

Very few of those are Internet "combatants," so to speak. The IRL forum at one board I visit has very few political issues.

I'd hate to think that F-Troop sets the standard for "real CART/CC fans." And I don't think that. I think that those who attended CART/CC races at permanent courses were race fans and probably, like those at IRL sites, didn't give a poop about any split 12 years ago.

weefly, you can add an IMO to your post. The DP-01 doesn't even have an oval kit, let alone being tested on an oval somewhere. And if IT was going to make that much of a difference, as CC proclaimed, why didn't it in '07?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by indycool

Gary, defining a "real IRL fan" is probably the various fan groups who meet at the Brickyard Crossing Flag Room each week to watch old racing movies, the guys that hang out at shops on Gasoline Alley and Charlie Brown's on Main Street in Speedway and the various fans who have warmed up to it at Nashville, Texas, Kansas, Chicagoland, Richmond, etc.

Very few of those are Internet "combatants," so to speak. The IRL forum at one board I visit has very few political issues.

I'd hate to think that F-Troop sets the standard for "real CART/CC fans." And I don't think that. I think that those who attended CART/CC races at permanent courses were race fans and probably, like those at IRL sites, didn't give a poop about any split 12 years ago.

weefly, you can add an IMO to your post. The DP-01 doesn't even have an oval kit, let alone being tested on an oval somewhere. And if IT was going to make that much of a difference, as CC proclaimed, why didn't it in '07?

---

IC, do you mean the DP-01 doesn't have an oval kit now, or never did? My impression was that Panoz had designed the car to race on ovals or be able to use an oval kit, should CC return to them in the future. They just hadn't tested them yet since there wasn't a need to, and I guess the point is moot, for now. But my thinking was that Champ Car would be ready for that eventuality, if it came to pass.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by garyshell

"Real IRL fan" ah the magic prejudicial words. What do you know of the real IRL fan, all you know is what you have been spoonfed by the likes of the CCF forum. You wouldn't know a real IRL fan if it came up and bit your... And for that matter neither would I. The point is you have this distorted stereotype that may or, more likely, may not be accurate.

So as I asked before, if "IRL can be nothing more than a waste of time if you don't like IRL as IRL are..." is true, why are you here? What purpose could it possibly serve for you or a "true IRL fan" or those of us who are new to the series and are wating to see how this shakes out.

Gary

---

What serve for me? I prefer to wait and see some races before answer this question but I don't hope a big improvement in quality of races this year.

About the AOW future? I don't know.. but for me the problem is more about people( charismatic drivers ) than series, cars and races... CART in their last years had nice cars and great races but didn't have a genuine hero to catch the public and midia's attention .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by indycool

Castroneves appeared on a dance show 10 straight weeks in front of 20 million viewers per week. Whoever did that, and I expect it took several staff people from various entities to, wonderful.

200 million viewers in the U.S. of a two-time Indianapolis 500 winner in a TV competition vs. 300 crappies?

---

This is the type of accounting you used to scream about when applied to Champ Car weekend attendance. The hypocrisy is astounding, but not at all surprising.

Get back to us when 200 million (or 20 million) people tune in to watch him race.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grungex

This is the type of accounting you used to scream about when applied to Champ Car weekend attendance. The hypocrisy is astounding, but not at all surprising.

Get back to us when 200 million (or 20 million) people tune in to watch him race.

---

According to news accounts it was 350,000,000 viewers of DWTS. So if .5% watch an ICS race, that would be 1,700,000 or about 1.8 rating. So half of that would be a .9 on top of a .6. Don't forget Danica and the hand full of un bitter fans so it could go as high as 2.0. Of course it won't if it does it out distance the NHL.

Rpralon, my biggest objection to your posts is your stated opinion that "real IRL fans" watch the series in their hopes to see crashes.

I want to ask you a serious question. I would like to ask you what is EXACTLY your evidence for that statement?

I would consider myself a "real IRL fan," and I can tell you that I believe there is NOTHING more thrilling than seeing side-by-side racing with finishes that are thousandths of a second apart. The LAST thing I - and I think the VAST majority of "real IRL fans" - want to see while that is going on is any kind of incident to stop the action.

MY evidence for that? I have been to dozens of IRL races where the close racing has been thrilling to the point of the crowd noise drowning out the roar of the cars. When there IS an accident (generally somewhere else in the field), blown engine or debris on the track that brings out the yellow, the crowd simply deflates and grows quiet. It's pretty obvious that the crowd was getting off on the racing, not waiting for an accident.

Exactly what is your experience in this area? How many IRL races have you seen in person? How many times have you seen two (or three) cars come off the final turn waiting to see which one would get the slightest advantage at the checkered flag?

Do yourself a favor. Before you stereotype "real IRL fans" with the disgusting insinuation that they are in it for the crashes, quit basing your opinions on the ravings of the children on some of the other forums and see what you can find out about those "real IRL fans" from them. Get some facts.

I'm one of those "real IRL fans."

Davey Hamilton is a friend. I wept as I watched them pull his broken body out of his car at TMS. I wept again when I watched him on the web cam pull out for his first lap of practice since the accident at Indy in 2007. Several years after Davey's accident, I prayed even as pieces from Kenny Brack's car were still spinning across the track after touching wheels with Tomas Scheckter. I found it hard to watch as Jason Priestly's IPS car came to a stop just yards from where I was at Kentucky. I can assure you those are among three memories I wish I could cleanse from my memory.

I'm a "real IRL fan." Don't you dare presume to tell me I'm there for the crashes. And don't presume to tell me I'm any different than other "real IRL fans." It's insulting, it's ignorant, and it's just not true.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DrJackMiller

.....I still love this sport
but I now want to see it whole again...
with one culture and one fan base. (A)

As someone wiser than me once said:

"You got to get busy livin' or get busy dyin". (B)

So, what happens next...
now that blind faith or hatred won't work any more?

---

I want to take small issues with you....

A) There NEVER was ONE culture OR fan BASE. The entirety of it all was composed of speculating promoters, car owners, too large a pool of driver wannabes, educated & casual fans, bloodsport fans, drunks, kids wives who could give a **** and trhill seekers of every color in every classification above.


B) Around the old Waltrip shops they had a refined perspective on that very observation, they said
"IF you don't have yesterday behind you by noon today, you probably won't have a tomorrow either!"


C) Blind faith & hatred will always WORK... EVERMORE.
WHY?
Because as long as ignorance, laziness, decption and the accecptence of them is tolerated stupidity will have a large vocal grasp on the enjoyment, expertise and promise in conversation that is SUPPOSED to be about openwheeled racing.
When people do not defend when they know is correct (historicly or socially) it invites those with other agendas or social morals, who are actually just looking for an audience that will tolerate their
"I can form an opinion therefore it is as valid as any other"
attitude & associated behavioral misanthropy.

You have just witnessed it from the inside and have 13yrs of firsthand knowledge, which, in experience, would give you a BS in B.S.!!
So did you miss the lesson or were you so fixed looking at the scenery that you missed the only possible conclusion....?

THERE CAN NEVER BE
ENOUGHT MONEY AND SUCKERS
TO SUSTAIN A PYRIMID
and have anyone but the originators or controlers profit from it.
In the end EVERYONE involved winds up losing money, time, face or more.

Other than that Dr. Jack,
if you are the same ol' Doc from aways back
where the slime is thicker than blood
then I still respect you and your opinions
and even if you THINK your not there for the crashes,
you ARE!
Because you wanna see miracles in racing just as bad as anyone else and crashes are where they usually take place.
I love watching Jethro Bodines heroic disintegrational demonstration & survival at Daytona in what was once a truck. It was a 100% positive testament to the skill & abilities of everyone from the spec team to the welder to the driver because in the end it ALL worked exactly as it was meant to and EXPECTED to!
I just don't like any of the crashes where permanent injury or worse occurrs and I am sure that you don't either.
And that my friend makes you a fellow race fan.
Which is the reason I took the time to point out how you mis-spoke, because I give a damn about REAL RACE FANS, Drivers and crew workers and not so much about car owners or promoters.
I look forward to see'n ya around the pits................. :cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tbyars

Rpralon, my biggest objection to your posts is your stated opinion that "real IRL fans" watch the series in their hopes to see crashes.

I want to ask you a serious question. I would like to ask you what is EXACTLY your evidence for that statement?
.............................
I'm a "real IRL fan." Don't you dare presume to tell me I'm there for the crashes. And don't presume to tell me I'm any different than other "real IRL fans." It's insulting, it's ignorant, and it's just not true.

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PsssT...hey Bud,

You shouldn't ought to let the rantings of people consumed by fantasy, themselves and self loathing get your attention, don't you realize that your TIME,EFFORT and ILLWILL is all they can surrvive on?

It's an addiction thing for them, it thrills them just like watching a squirrel get run over the 4th time.

Treat them the same as you do the guy who lives 9 miles away from you...
never give him a thought, recognize his existance or pay him an ioter of your sweet time or energy.

He wins when his crap sicks to YOUR barn and you acknowledge it, they're HIS rules and you play by them! :mad:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grungex

This is the type of accounting you used to scream about when applied to Champ Car weekend attendance. The hypocrisy is astounding, but not at all surprising.

Get back to us when 200 million (or 20 million) people tune in to watch him race.

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Bother to INFORM YOU when a racing event of note occurrs?
HA!
DOUBLE HA

You'll know, it will be about the time you are trampled by all those feet headed back to the crown jewel in motorsports, and if you regain concieousness quick you will see they have all left you in their dust once again....but hey you can always watchit on tee-vee and be as smug as you need to be to maintain that attitude of
" the world is always wrong when they don't listen to me!"
Stay where you are, there ain't no room for you there anyway, there are no seats at INDY located in a hole that you don't dig yourself....take it to the bank.

No, grungex, those are accepted Nielsen numbers. There's no further point in discussing CART/CC announced attendance.

Quote:

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I'm a "real IRL fan." Don't you dare presume to tell me I'm there for the crashes. And don't presume to tell me I'm any different than other "real IRL fans." It's insulting, it's ignorant, and it's just not true.

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I didn't want to insult any IRL fan, but I can't disconnect crashes involving multiple cars from IRL's image. I can't remember any oval IRL race without crashes and there are rumors that the series champion have gone to NASCAR due to security risks . So if somebody really doesn't want to see dangerous crashes and support IRL races seems to me a kind of incoherence. Crashes are part of motor sports but in IRL recently they have happened over limits.

Well, guess you've been coached well in the image that has been presented at CW and elsewhere about the IRL.

ANY form of motorsport is dangerous. The drivers have preferences and feelings about things at certain times. Emerson Fittipaldi's career was thought to be done when he was out of F1, and all of a sudden, he comes to the U.S., joins the series, learns ovals and wins Indy twice. Others come here because they can't get to F1 or stay in it (Mike Andretti and da Matta, over and back; Guerrero and Boesel, over here and stayed.)

Michael Schumacher said the Indy 500 was too dangerous for him. FOR HIM. It WASN'T too dangerous for a 19-year-old American college girl named Sarah Fisher, nor is it today.

That's just different strokes for different folks. If they went to NASCAR thinking that's bulletproof safe, remember the tragedy of Dale Earnhardt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by indycool

No, grungex, those are accepted Nielsen numbers. There's no further point in discussing CART/CC announced attendance.

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The 20 million per show is accepted, 200 million different viewers is not. Which was my point, and you know it. Sidestep it all you want... :rolleyes:

Oh, okay, I was not aware you were disputing repeats....certainly, I would think, there were plenty of viewers who followed the whole thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by indycool

Oh, okay, I was not aware you were disputing repeats....certainly, I would think, there were plenty of viewers who followed the whole thing.

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Absolutely, but they do not add up to 200 million separate viewers. Which was always your ilk's dispute with CC attendance, wasn't it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grungex

Absolutely, but they do not add up to 200 million separate viewers. Which was always your ilk's dispute with CC attendance, wasn't it?

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But since we were willing to accept the CC attendance numbers for a weekend despite the fact we knew some folks are being counted twice, and I was among those willing, why should we now be unwilling to accept the 200 million number???

I thought the CC numbers legitimate and I find the DWTS numbers equally legitimate. If there were 20 million individual viewers, then that 200 million means they tuned in TEN times. That means they came back. They voted with their remote controls. The mere fact that they saw Helio ten weeks in a row, makes them even MORE likely to want to come see him at his real job should the circus (in a GOOD sense of the word) come to their town.

It's like website stats. Individual numbers are good but return visit numbers are even better!

Gary

I wasn't the one disputing Champ Car math, merely pointing out the inconsistency in indycool's post. One can't have it both ways, but some folks try...

grungex, I already acknowledged your point about repeat viewers and would have in advance if I realized that WAS your point. I know that the counting of CART/CC attendance figures including the same guy for three days is a big deal to some, but in my OWN view of CART/CC attendance figures, I don't know how you build 22,000 seats at Cleveland and have no GAs and announce six-figure numbers for the weekend, no matter how many times someone turns the turnstile (up to three).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rpralon

I didn't want to insult any IRL fan, but I can't disconnect crashes involving multiple cars from IRL's image. I can't remember any oval IRL race without crashes and there are rumors that the series champion have gone to NASCAR due to security risks . So if somebody really doesn't want to see dangerous crashes and support IRL races seems to me a kind of incoherence. Crashes are part of motor sports but in IRL recently they have happened over limits.

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Let's see your proof. How about offering us the following:

Number of crashes OF ANY KIND per mile raced in 2007 for:
IRL
CCWS
ALMS
Grand Am
NASCAR

And then...

Number of SERIOUS (resulting in a driver missing at least one race due to injury) crashes per mile raced in 2007 for:
IRL
CCWS
ALMS
Grand Am
NASCAR

You made the comment, now let's see the proof. It's going to take some work on your part, but if you are going to make that sort of assessment, it is only fair that you are asked to back it up.

Either what you say is true, or you have just accepted, and then offered as fact, the statements made by fanitical fans at other forums that speak only with an agenda.

Without that proof, what you say is indeed insulting to "real IRL fans" everywhere, regardless of your intent.

By the way, I can remember (and attended) a minimum of 4 IRL oval races over the past few years where there was absolutely NO contact with anything - cars, walls, NOTHING - during the course of not only the race, but throughout the entire racing weekend for the ICS (although there were from the support series such as the Trucks).

Can you make that claim for CCWS?

I will give you more effective data.

Last drivers who died in top racing series:

IRL : Paul Dana (2006) and Tony Renna (2003)
NASCAR : Dale Earnhardt Sr. (2001)
CART/CC: Gonzalo Rodrigues an Gred Morre ( 1999)
F1: Airton Senna and Roland Ratzenberger (1994)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rpralon

I will give you more effective data.

Last drivers who died in top racing series:

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Sorry, no that is not effective data at all when you were talking about the number of crashes. Now you want to switch horses and talk about the number of deaths.

Nope, keep it on topic. What were the number of crashes per mile driven in the series?

And lets say, just for the sake of argument, that there were more in the ICS than CCWS. How do you make this sudden leap of faith, that because there are more that means the fans must WANT more? That's like suggesting that NFL fans only watch football to watch players carried off the field on stretchers. I suggest they watch in spite of the fact that there is an occasional player carried off the field.

Gary

Quote:

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Originally Posted by garyshell

Nope, keep it on topic. What were the number of crashes per mile driven in the series?

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My god, what does this have to do with anything? I got "hit" from starter talking about the reality of the sport, that people die and we go here.

I think people need to grow up as this topic is for teenagers. As a person that lost person friends in Open Wheel I am offended by topics like this! :mad: