Aw, I don't think so, nanders. Last I heard about Dr. Jack, he was into flying airplanes now in addition to his dental practice.
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Aw, I don't think so, nanders. Last I heard about Dr. Jack, he was into flying airplanes now in addition to his dental practice.
If the early reports hold true and the split really is at an end, I will celebrate heartily with my friends this week.
The best and most satisfying occasion this year will be the Indy 500, with a full and competitive field of racers, with Paul Tracy taking the chequered flag and drinking milk in the Winners circle!
That would be a wonderful story and make great copy.
I'd like to see it end as well, open wheel has lost too much ground to NASCAR. But now, we have to consider what kind of series we will have as result.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlatChatRacer
Chap, I think you're going to see a stable series which must, over time, gain more widespread attention, not from us hardcores on the boards, because we are very few in the big picture of things. I think the FINANCIALLY stable sites are going to get the dates and it's important that the promoters also grow with the series. It's important that the teams and drivers grow with the series.
When a schedule comes out, everybody isn't going to be happy, but in truth, not many of the CC sites were making money, either as track rentals or temporaries. So, not many of them will be included. A Road America was scheduled all over the CART map and never had a solid, stable date in its history, yet made it with CART when the series was together, and then was a track rental when CC went back. As much as I like Road America, it's likely to be awhile before it makes a deal again because it was treated badly by CART and CC just didn't draw there paying its own way. Laguna, the same way.
As much as I like Phoenix, when ISC took over, what was built in Phoenix with the Copper World Classic and a traditional March Indy car date got jacked around and both were minimized and pretty much killed. Hopefully, in time, the new "one" series will grow back to be popular there...and at Michigan.
So, I think almost everyone will find some little fault with whatever becomes of an '08 schedule, something they don't like, and the start of a stable schedule will come in '09, and that will most probably gore some oxen, too.
But finances, availability of schedule, television availability and promoter interest will be the benchmarks of what leads to a schedule....not 1, 10 or 100 of us saying on the boards that we need Road America or Phoenix or it's a disaster.
Unfortunately your are incorrect in your assumption that "Champcar deserves to survive in the merger, not die...." and "More time is needed ..."Quote:
Originally Posted by jimispeed
1) This is NOT a merger of equals - it is a surrender by the amigos after squandering very possible opportunity to succeed since buying the series in 2004.
2) CCWS is broke or close to it and cannot pay their bills now, no way they would even complete the 2008 season at this rate - there is NOT time to implement a long-term phase-in combination of the two series.
Not a TG fan here; but a businessman who knows "when to say when". Bite the bullet: take a few steps back, regroup (i.e suffer the crapwagons for a while), rebuild the popularity of the Indy 500, re-formualize the product (progessive cars & engines) in a year or two, attract new sponsors to a unified series, attract new venues (possibly some old CART locations), drop bad (possibly some old IRL locations) locations, attract some 'known' American drivers, increase TV exposure, increase marketing, and in about 10 years AOWR could (and I emphasize "could") be back on the road to success - the damage of the split has been so bad that it will take that long.
I am very sorry to see you and long-time valued fans and forum posters like Blancvino leave open wheel racing due to a petty hatred of TG or any other entity or individual.
CART first then CCWS had every chance to sieze the moment and bury the IRL but could not do so for two reasons: 1) They made all the wrong moves and I do mean "all", and 2) They did NOT have the Indy 500. It was inevitable.
Work your way through the five phases of grief (Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance) and support the new effort - it cannot be any worse that what we've gone through the past 12 years.
The next few days should offer up some memorable quotes. Here is my favorite from last year:
"How long is my commitment (to CCWS)?" Kalkhoven replied. "How long is my life?"
So for me, "what happens next" includes finding a quote to top that!
Just for fun, I went back and read post #1 on this thread written almost 6 months ago.
It initiated a firestorm of debate, argument, attacks, support, and even a few "timeouts" for some posters who got too "involved" (we know who we are). At times it was erudite, and at times it was ridiculous, and almost always heated. It eventually became the second largest thread on this forum.
Some people agreed with the content of that post and some almost violently opposed the suggestions. One infamous poster joined the day of the message and now has over 900 posts, all of which could be summarized as "the IRL is dying and the racing in CCWS is great, long live the CCWS" and "link please". Well, from all of the links in the past few days, it looks like the racing in CCWS will be gone. So much for predictions.
After 6 months and over 1000 posts, we have now come full circle back to the beginning. Nearly every suggestion in that post has come true. The last line of that post was rather prophetic and now appears to have an answer.
"So, what happens next... now that blind faith or hatred won't work any more?"
We move on the the future as one major Open Wheel series. It's about time.
Just because a decision is made doesn't necessarily make it the right decision. I am very glad you are happy with the result though, and that you remembered to bring up this thread again to remind everyone of your wisdom. Especially when it comes from a neutral poster such as yourself who wants what is best for the sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by beachbum
IC, like I said on one of the other threads, I will try to keep an open mind about it. This first year will be tough if it happens, just establishing a level of trust between the two groups. This new group will have to work closely with the tracks, and not try to extort concessions as they have in the past. They will have to work with each one carefully and try to rebuild open wheel's reputation so that that tracks will want to have the new series stage an event, as oppose to pressuring them to accept unreasonable terms. They will have to work out a proper TV schedule where the events are easily available to viewers, live, or full tape delay at a reasonable timeframe. And, they will have to reach out to the fans in ways they have not been able to conceive up to now. The jury will be out on this for quite awhile, so the success of the new venture depends on their collective realization of that, and how they go about developing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
This is an asinine post. What we have here is TWO FAILED BUSINESSES combining into one entity that MIGHT survive. What wrecked both series is the greed and avarice of Honda and Toyota and the big winner was NASCAR. All open wheel fans were the losers. The error has always been the Inferior Racing League.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaimWitz
As for me, I like my racing as technologically advanced and as genuine as possible; real competition not made-up fakery. If the Crapalaras aren't gone in 2009 you can forget me watching anything with the Indy tag on it, and I've been going to at least one race every year since 1993.
And let's hope the whole sport doesn't go Tango Uniform in the mean time.
db
Really? How about "There is no appeal." - Tony George, in the middle of ripping off the 2002 Indy 500 from Paul Tracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaimWitz
Now that's a quote.
Chap, I agree. The things it has going for it are already an ABC deal and races shown live, a sanctioning group which also understands what a promoter needs and makes because there's one (IMS) across 16th Street from their office and TG started a race team to better understand the costs car owners were complaining about. It has both Barnhart and Cotman, who developed respect as officials in each series on their own.
I don't think there is distrust between VERY MUCH of the two groups of racing people. In Indianapolis, throughout the split, teams from both series have helped each other with this little thing or that little thing -- transporting a car somewhere or "can I use your paint shop?" and the like -- and there are cottage industry people who serve BOTH series.
Maybe Forsythe and George could have a longstanding beef with each other, I suppose, but I've never heard that said, but KK and Pettit haven't been around long enough to distrust and hate and Gentilozzi was just in it for his 15 minutes of fame and keeping the CW jihad stoked.
With the series rank and file, I don't think that's a problem at all.
Hey, PTCrash3, Glad I woke you up and got you to post here rather than that other dark place. Hate the IRL all you want to but the facts speak for themselves. They get paid to be on TV and bring their races to venues. Speaking of asinine, ChampCar doesn't get paid to be on TV and only a handful of venues (that they don't own themselves) actually pay them anything. I can't see that changing, can you? The Amigos have never had a prayer of making CCWS into a real business. CART was another matter entirely so let's not confuse the two. As for the TG quote you posted, that isn't my favorite -- I would have chosen "33 is only a number". Regardless, I personally can't wait until PT wins his second Indy 500.Quote:
Originally Posted by PTCrash3
You must really HATE P2P and option tires.....Quote:
Originally Posted by PTCrash3
Or my fave, the Handford Device.Quote:
Originally Posted by tbyars
Sanguin? Is that you? Ah, it could be Clydecart, or maybe Mike15, no? Hmmm, zero?Quote:
Originally Posted by PTCrash3
Who you mean "let's" to? Dude, don't even bother including me into your cult thing. You're not in CCFanatics. Just a reminder.Quote:
Originally Posted by PTCrash3
Well, it seems we are only hours away from the end of The Split despite certain individuals' best efforts to stop the peace plane. I thought it might just be time for a little song from Johnny Crash:
I hear the plane a comin'
it's flyin' round the bend
and I ain't seen the sunshine since I don't know when,
I'm stuck in Splitsville prison, and time keeps draggin' on
but that train keeps a flyin' on down to Grandson Anton...
When I was just a baby my mama told me. Son,
always be a good boy, don't ever play with DP1s.
But I called a man in Lansing just to hear him lie
now every time I hear that G5 whistle I hang my head and cry...
I bet there's rich folks eating in a fancy G5 jet
they're probably drinkin' Pinot and smelling their own farts.
Well I know I had it coming, I know I can't be free
but those people keep a lyin'
and that's what tortures me...
Well if they'd free me from this prison,
if that One Series was mine
I bet I'd move just a little further down the line
far from Splitsville prison, that's where I want to stay
and I'd let that lonesome G5 whistle blow my blues away...
"I like my racing as technologically advanced and as genuine as possible"
LOL the eternal Champcars are more technologically advanced myth...
Newsflash!!! the Cossies are over 10 year old technology!!! The turbos are almost century old technology... NA engines are not low tech... heck F1 engines are NA and they are by far the most technologically advanced engines out there...
The Dallaras are crapwagons line was just propaganda that was used to justify the hatred for the IRL...
As much as you hate TG you can't walk around wtih blinders... doing do was the ultimate demise of CCWS...
CCWS turned into what every fan hated (single chasis, single engine, single tire, spec series, with a handfull of ride buyers) but the hatred for TG was so that fans were willing to support it just to "stick it" to TG... It's over thank God...
Now the quicker TG messes this up too, the sooner a new formula will surface, with better teams, better venues and (like it or not) the 500 in it's former glory!!
So, we all wait together for the news now certain to come.
The subject of this thread has obviously captured some attention here so I ask again, what happens next? Perhaps we can shift our focus to what should happen next now that we are about to have one series
What should happen that will be good for the sport? What should not happen that will be bad for the sport?
I know there will be political responses laced with "FTG" and "Lawn Dart" hatred but I also hope that some sensible and constructive thinking is posted. From here on, it will be about the future, not the past for most of us involved in the sport so why not here too?
I think a melded series takes advantage of all the publicity surrounding the coming together of these series. I check newspapers regularly and even the Tahlequah (Okla.) Daily News is following this on the wires. It will be a HUGE motorsports story when it breaks.
But that will NOT sustain it, nor will it have a "microwave" effect on the GENERAL public. In order to get a significant rise out of the GENERAL sports fan, it's going to be the personality stuff from a Helio, Danica and Tracy to start with and others as they develop and the series can develop them.
This will NOT be instant success, but it offers a platform for growth, and growth will come slowly as confusion goes away and the name "Indy" increases in importance. That will come by each autograph signing, each appearance, each solid race, each tenth of a rating point over a period of time, although some may find it quite easy to criticize that it doen't move faster.
If nothing else, it will reduce the confusion to the general public and potential advertisers. We will once again be able to say INDYCARS and there will be no confucion as to what that means. You will simply be able to anwer "YES" to the same ol question we have all bveen asked a thousand times without having to go into a long dissertation about the split. Now all the energy can be focused on promoting 1 series, with one goal, a healthy series. Ugly cars and a few too many ovals aside, everything else CAN be there. The IRL is just as open to fans as CCWS has always been. The close racing will return. There will always be back markers and less well funded teams. Those teams just need some sort of reward or incentive to keep sponsors interested and happy. sure, there will always be those that will cry gimmick or what ever, but everyone has to make a choice. Is this form of racing a pure sport or Entertainment. Pure sports are rarely a commercial success.
Make no bones about it, this year will be a rocky painful ride at best, but it is the right thing to do. Venues will sort themselves out. Even the promotors surely to loose a race this season have made comments that this is apositive thing for th elong term future of the sport. Even the guy in the white hat gets his a$$ kiched once an a while. I'm tired of sour grapes, time to get on with it. If you don't like what we are left with, it's been nice knowing ya. I'm going to try to enjoy some racing this year without all the Bull$#!t.
Meeting is on for tonight:
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...RTS01/80221062
Quote:
A meeting that could unify U.S. open-wheel racing is still on schedule for tonight, an Indy Racing League spokesman said this afternoon.
Kevin Kalkhoven, a co-owner of the Indianapolis-based Champ Car World Series and the series' chief negotiator in the dealings with IRL founder Tony George, was due in the city from London late this afternoon.
He will be meeting with George to finalize the last remaining details.
A news conference to announce the unification is expected Friday at Indianapolis Motor Speedway. A time for the event has not been announced.
The IRL's reconfigured schedule, which is expected to include three of Champ Car's 2008 events, is not expected to be announced Friday. Those three events are in Long Beach, Calif.; Edmonton, Alberta; and Surfers Paradise, Australia.
donde esta' Sanguine??? ;)
“Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end.”
— Seneca, Roman philosopher, mid-1st century AD
So, we finally have peace. What happens next?
Papers have been signed, guys. Press conference forthcoming. OK, now, let's all be careful for what we wished for...
'Cause we'll probably get it...
File the following "what happens next' item from AR1.com under "I told you so". I wonder if Sanguin was one of the CCWS staffers who was layed off? He has suddenly stopped posting. I wonder why? I also wonder if anyone remembers that I posted here that The Amigos cared only about themselves and no one else. The me, the uncaring way in which they treated the CCWS staff speaks volumes about their collective character (or lack there of).
"Champ Car employees hurt most by merger A reader writes, Dear Auto Racing1, While the unification (I won't call it a merger) of open wheel racing is a great step forward for the sport, I'd hope that all involved don't forget about the nearly 50 people at the Champ Car headquarters, as well as the "weekend warriors", Safety Team and Pace Car Team that helped make Champ Car events the successes they were, who are now out of a job.
After weeks of no communication from the owners and the high amount of stress associated with that, the employees at the headquarters were unceremoniously given their walking papers on Friday afternoon. All received a basic compensation package and were shown the door. Even though Kevin Kalkhoven was in town that day, he couldn't be bothered to visit to thank the hard working and dedicated employees who tried to make his company a success. Not even a thank you for your efforts e-mail from him or any of the owners.
And to add insult to injury, the employees were also told that "the IRL has said they have no openings for you." An offer from Tony George to at least ask the former Champ Car employees to forward their resumes to the IRL would have gone a long way towards creating some good will in the situation. Instead we were all summarily left out in the cold. Guess it proves that hard work, dedication and sacrifice just mean very little to some people."
Signed,
An ex-Champ Car employee who hopes the ALMS or the NHRA is hiring"
The response to the employees and especially the Safety Team is despicable but not really a surprise. I won't get into it too much but the way the AMIGOS dealt with the very folk they depended upon was indicative of what was soon to happen. I am referring to 05' dismissal of Dr's Olvey and Trammel. They pioneered many innoviations in the area of racing safety yet were summarily dismissed by the CCWS powers that be. To me it was a warning flag. Indeed it was what was to happen to everything and everyone from Scoring to Media. In the end these guys did not know what they were doing but BY GOD they were going to do it their way.
ONWARD.
I feel really bad for these folks...was friends with John Clagett...wonder what they told Gentilozzi...hopefully, they gave him the same treatment.Quote:
Originally Posted by FORMULA-A
I would have to agree. The CART/Champ Car safety team was world reknowned for their skills and were totally responsible for saving Alex Zanardi's life. That was definitely a red flag and a good indication of the incompetent management style of The Amigos.Quote:
Originally Posted by FORMULA-A
do we know that was a decision on the Amigos part? or that TG just didn't turn round and say "no i don't want them, we have our own".Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaparral66
On these threads people keep saying oh "x" made this bad decision or "y" did this wrong. But do we actually know for sure who's decisions was whos???
The obvious reality is that Tony George had no responsibility for the management of ChampCar nor did he have any obligation to the employees of the company. The Amigos did. I repeat, The Amigos did. They apparently treated that responsibility and obligation with the same respect that they treated the fans and promoters. I do know a number of CCWS staffers and I'll bet that their resumes went to the IRL as well as ALMS, Grand Am, NASCAR, etc. I suspect that a few will probably eventually end up at the IRLQuote:
Originally Posted by BobGarage
I feel sorry for the former Champcar office people...
I hope they will find jobs somewhere else...
I wonder what Sanguin will do now?
This is true, TG isn't responsible for the CCWS staffers, The Amigos are. If, after all the rumors and articles about the merger surfaced, you'd think that at some point, at the very least KK would have given an indication of where it was going. But he probably didn't want to do that because he was so paranoid about leaks to the media. Once the deal was done, he should have been there personally to come clean to the loyal staff.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaimWitz
I was surprised in a positive way by what TG, KK and MA said on Windtunnel. It seems that TG is far more open minded than some posters here would have had us believe and that KK was far more gracious and proactive in healing the Spilt than I would have thought. Perhaps they both read this thread and knew "it was time" ;-0.
they'd both had to have been blind to not see that it was time.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaimWitz
both series were stuggling to get 16 cars each this season. Merger was the only option for both sides.
With the excess number of chassis etc the IRL had that is the formula that stayed on.
Someone already recounted the time when the safety crew was let go and replaced, and that was well before this merger. That means that it was the Amigos, not TG.Quote:
Originally Posted by BobGarage
"do we know that was a decision on the Amigos part? or that TG just didn't turn round and say "no i don't want them, we have our own"."
Are you kidding? This happened right after the BK... this was one of the first things OWRS did...
So, the river denial still runs deep in these parts and over on ****wagon.com.
Whatever.
The reality now is that the whole hater angle is tired. Very tired.
Tomorrow is just another crazy day in the nearly 100 year history of our sport and racers will do what they have always done. They will get on with it and go racing. It is time we all did too. I only have a few posts left in me before I get back to the hard work ahead. What happens next will happen regardless of who complains or feels hurt.
The future is coming at us. Fast. Hang on tight...