What Happens Next?

Heelntoe,

I agree. I have said it other threads more than once, that finance is the issue here.

Champ Car finances are in a dire state and KK seems to want to get out now. Maybe GF wants out as well, but they don't seem to be in agreement on the best way to get out.

There is an easy way for this to end. Just have a few of the Champ Car teams switch to the IRL and all Champ Car series owner discussions with the IRL are moot.

That is why I think NHL, Dale Coyne, Conquest, PCM, Minardi and Walker should all have joint announcement that they will be switching to the IRL for 2008.

Split over, discussions over, end of Champ Car!

I'd be willing to bet that CCWS' finances are in disarray because The Amigos are each spending money on stuff and they aren't communicating with each other. No wonder we can't seem to get reliable info because they are all saying something different from one another.

What the ***** is going on?!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

What the ***** is going on?!

---

This is the battle cry of the disenfranchised open wheel fan
AND the fact of the matter is.....
for the duration of this "war" not ONE single person has been able to deliver a diffinitive factual answerm for the simople reason that nobody ever knew.
It was all about greed, knee jerk reactionaries & ego.
Now you know the value they have in the orderly function of business. :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by garyshell

Tell that to the lawyers wringing there hands with glee over the prospect of making some $$$$ over this matter. They will attempt to make a case for this with "...king George's" offer to the OWRS teams, no matter how carefully crafted or delivered that offer was. I am not saying they have a leg to stand on, because that has NEVER stopped a lawyer who smelled blood in the water.

Gary

---

In most bankruptcy cases, the courts don't allow creditors to go after losses from unrelated companies. Sure, anybody can sue anybody for anything. But Honda and king george can afford good lawyering, and the law would be firmly on their side.

Less than a month ago the US Supreme Court decided (by inaction) that companies complicit in Enron's cooking of the books could not be held accountable. Enron is THE WORST corporate criminal in the history of the US. And these other companies were definitely guilty of helping Enron hide the losses. But the creditors aren't even being allow to sue. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...iJ6OE&refer=us

The Supreme Court seems to say that limited proof of fraud isn't enough. That a huge amount of premeditated fraud would be necessary to sue solvent companies for the sins of separate bankrupt companies. The suits like those suggested above would seem to have no chance at all. A lot of courts would probably reject them out of hand.

Now if the creditors could PROVE that the management of the irl was complicit in a pre-conceived plan to steal away assets that should rightfully be theirs, I think almost any court would let king george be sued. Hell, proof of that might be enough to put the corporate heads in the slammer.

But proving that sort of thing is damned difficult. At the very least you'd need someone on the inside willing testify to the corruption. But you'd probably also need documentary evidence. Even george isn't stupid enough to keep paperwork around that could put him in jail.

I'm no lawyer, but I think the suits suggested above probably wouldn't survive a single day in court. They'd cost Honda and george a few grand to get dismissed. In the scheme of things, big freaking deal. Worries about suits like that are probably just fear, uncertainty and doubt being sowed by those who are about to lose their shirts. Honda's and george's lawyers have probably already assured their clients how much of a joke those threats really are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dalon

In most bankruptcy cases, the courts don't allow creditors to go after losses from unrelated companies. Sure, anybody can sue anybody for anything. But Honda and king george can afford good lawyering, and the law would be firmly on their side.

Less than a month ago the US Supreme Court decided (by inaction) that companies complicit in Enron's cooking of the books could not be held accountable. Enron is THE WORST corporate criminal in the history of the US. And these other companies were definitely guilty of helping Enron hide the losses. But the creditors aren't even being allow to sue. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...iJ6OE&refer=us

The Supreme Court seems to say that limited proof of fraud isn't enough. That a huge amount of premeditated fraud would be necessary to sue solvent companies for the sins of separate bankrupt companies. The suits like those suggested above would seem to have no chance at all. A lot of courts would probably reject them out of hand.

Now if the creditors could PROVE that the management of the irl was complicit in a pre-conceived plan to steal away assets that should rightfully be theirs, I think almost any court would let king george be sued. Hell, proof of that might be enough to put the corporate heads in the slammer.

But proving that sort of thing is damned difficult. At the very least you'd need someone on the inside willing testify to the corruption. But you'd probably also need documentary evidence. Even george isn't stupid enough to keep paperwork around that could put him in jail.

I'm no lawyer, but I think the suits suggested above probably wouldn't survive a single day in court. They'd cost Honda and george a few grand to get dismissed. In the scheme of things, big freaking deal. Worries about suits like that are probably just fear, uncertainty and doubt being sowed by those who are about to lose their shirts. Honda's and george's lawyers have probably already assured their clients how much of a joke those threats really are.

---

Dalon, what you wrote makes sense. The hysteria and fear that is being spun up by the fanatics has the scent of desperation and mean spiritedness. The fact that Mark C. posted and then promptly removed the rumor suggesting a legal Amrageddon for Tony George implies he doubted the source feeding him the information (Paulie G. String?).

Speaking of sources and Paulie, several have told me that he was completely caught off guard by all of this and has been working overtime to kill the deal (just like he did in 2006). I have personally seen his skills at stirring up hate and mischief. He has a few allies (including the SCCA refugees) and he has had Forsythe's ear for a while so any time things get deeply delusional and ugly I tend to think he is behind it.

Think about what happens to him when all this comes crashing down as it soon will: He will be less than zero.

So, the truth is that all these flim flam men need to go and nothing will change that. They have been found out and everyone but them can see it. It is nice to know that KK can now see it too. The JDS Uniphase trial may have given him perspective and caused him to reconsider how he spends the remaining years of his life. I can't imagine it would be his desire to spend it in the company of Paul Gentilozzi, Steve Johnson and a fellow named Paper.

Wow a thousand replies and we still don't know the answer from the topic title ;)

We still don't know what exactly happened 13 yaers ago.... :)

Hadn't seen a link to this on this forum yet:
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl.../1052/SPORTS01

Contains an interesting bit:

If Champ Car collapses, Walker's team will be one of nine Champ Car teams representing 15 cars the IRL will try to bring into its fold. Walker believes only one team is certain to join the IRL: Newman Haas Lanigan, which fields cars for Justin Wilson and Graham Rahal.
Everyone else, Walker said, will have a tough decision.
"It's going to be very difficult to make the switch -- financially, technically and time-wise," he said. "Maybe half (of the teams) have the resources to do it and could be there, but the rest of us are going to struggle.
"Some may want to give the effort but some may not, and they'll just give up (and disband)."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChaimWitz

Dalon, what you wrote makes sense.

---

And since when has sense had anything to do with lawyers suing folks and making outrageous claims?

Yes I agree, Dalon makes a lot of sense. But I don't share his optimism that the lawyers will act in this way.

Gary

People usually do what is in their best interests so what will happen will happen. The point is that it is unlikely that TG will suffer a loss here. Anyhow, here is a link to Robin Miller's latest on what happens (or not) next:

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...-frustrations/

The Rahals weigh in on the talks:http://www.dispatch.com/live/content...S.html?sid=101

Some quotes:

Quote:

---

Reports in the past week have indicated the unwieldy 13-year run of competing open-wheel racing series in the United States might be close to ending, with a merger or, perhaps more likely, an absorption of Champ Car by the Indy Racing League.

Bobby Rahal is a co-owner of Hilliard-based Rahal Letterman Racing, an IRL team, and a three-time champion in Champ Car. His reaction? Call him back when it's a fact.

"This is only about the 15th time or so this kind of talk has happened over, what, the last 13 years?" Rahal said yesterday. "So when I see it, I'll believe it."

This time, it seems more serious. His son Graham Rahal, preparing for his second season as a Champ Car driver with the Newman-Haas-Lanigan team, has picked up on the vibes.

"Something is going to give this year," Graham said. "Call me crazy, but I truly believe this is the last year of the split."

There's a chance it could happen in time for this season if a few hoops can be negotiated. The IRL season opens in late March and Champ Car in mid-April.

For instance, it has been reported that the IRL would like to include on its schedule this year at least three Champ Car road races: the long-running Long Beach Grand Prix; a race in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada; and one in Surfers Paradise, Australia. But there is a conflict with the Long Beach event April 20 and the IRL race on April 19 in Motegi, Japan.

That's why IRL founder Tony George traveled to Japan last weekend to persuade officials of Honda -- the sole engine provider for IRL and promoters of the Motegi race -- to move the date. Preliminary reports indicated the meeting went well.

Another problem might be the dissolution of Champ Car. The series has existing contracts for other races this year, including the Cleveland Grand Prix, a fixture since 1982.

All of the races won't be taken in by the IRL, which has 16 events, including at Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course in Lexington on July 20.

But a melding of the series could generate a starting field of 24 cars or more. As incentive, George offered Champ Car team owners free IRL-type chassis and Honda engines for the coming season, plus the guaranteed $1.2 million that existing IRL teams will get this year, as long as the Champ Car teams agree to stay at least two seasons.

"I think (the merger) eventually is going to happen, one way or the other," Bobby Rahal said. "I mean, if I was a team owner in Champ Car, how could I depend on that series?"

Even his son can see the writing on the pit wall.

"I used to say specifically that I wanted Champ Car to live and I wanted the IRL to die off, but the truth is, the IRL isn't going to die off because they've got the Indy 500," Graham Rahal said. "Right now, the way I look at it we need to have one series, whatever way we can achieve that."

---

Then there is this update from Curt Cavin of the Indy Star

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Curt Cavin

It's 11 a.m. and I've checked all my sources, including the bankruptcy court, and there's no news to report. Interestingly, Tony George left for England to attend Scott Dixon's wedding. Maybe he made a stop somewhere along the way, but I don't see anything happening from the IRL's perspective until early next week at the earliest. As for Champ Car, there were the usual number of cars there yesterday when I made my rounds, and certainly no evidence of anyone packing boxes and moving out. As for talking with key CCWS officials, most of them haven't returned phone calls in a few days. So, we'll see.

---

Probably true, Starter. Think they'll try to get things quited down first.

This comes from an Edmonton radio station.....ugh......

http://www.630ched.com/news/news_xml...news_local.cfm

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by garyshell

And since when has sense had anything to do with lawyers suing folks and making outrageous claims?

Yes I agree, Dalon makes a lot of sense. But I don't share his optimism that the lawyers will act in this way.

Gary

---

This isn't about lawyers acting honorably, it's about the law.

If CC goes bankrupt, US legal precedent would make it extremely difficult (my guess is "nearly impossible") for those put out by ChampCar's failure to sustain viable lawsuits against the IRL or Honda.

Sure, there are caveats. For instance, if there is real, provable, pre-meditated, documented, complicity by the IRL or Honda to defraud ChampCar's creditors, there "may" be some way for the creditors to go after them. Surprisingly, even that is not guaranteed because recent Supreme Court sentiment suggests that the fraud hurdle is EXTREMELY high.

Yes, bad lawyers can make life hell for individuals and small companies. But big companies usually swat away that sort of thing without very little bother. The lawyers for ChampCar's creditors could act as nasty and underhanded as they like. It probably won't matter, because if CC files for bankruptcy, outside some extraordinary circumstances, the courts just don't let creditors go after other companies for losses incurred by another company's bankruptcy.

The IRL's negotiating to buy assets from a nearly insolvent company doesn't come close to reaching the threshold for fraud. Because it isn't fraud, it's business. Failing companies do all kinds of deals to stay afloat. There are limits. ChampCar's owners couldn't just sell off everything of value, pocket the money and declare bankruptcy. Well, they could, but the courts would own their asses and probably put them on the hook personally for the creditor's losses. For rich guys like Forsythe and Kalkhoven, a breech of that corporate shield would be the last thing they should be willing to risk.

The only third parties that "might" be in for some serious legal trouble would be Forsythe and Kalkhoven. They should be protected by their layers upon layers of LLC's. But it's possible that they may have made done something stupid. They could have used personal funds to pay for stuff, or made commitments to creditors outside their corporate protection. Since both of them are worth a ton of money, if that happened the creditors might be able to wrangle some money out of them.

Again, I'm no lawyer. But in my experience, Honda and the IRL would have almost no legal worries over ChampCar bankruptcy. Forsythe and Kalkhaven "might", but considering how they were very successful businessman before they ever saw a race car, my guess would be that both of them are very well insulated against any legal action.

Well Dalon,

I am willing to bet that Champ Car/OWRS is heading for Bankruptcy, unless Gerry Forsythe decides to buy out the other owners.

I cannot see any other outcome in 2008. My opinion of course.

FlatChat, you seem to have a firm grip on reality so how did you get mixed up in all of this? The final drum roll is about to start. Get ready for the final dance of the Penguins.

I think what might happen next is that both series will come out with a statement that they couldn't work out the issues for 2008, and instead will now concentrate on 2009.

Note to Dr. Jack Miller: Congratulations! Your thread just went over 1000 entries. What are you going to do now? When you wish upon a star...
Oh, sorry, got carried away there for a sec. We haven't heard from you in quite a while, Dr. Jack Miller. What do you think of these recent events?

ChaimWitz,

I work in Investment Banking and my training as an Accounting and Finance major has defined the view I tend to take on any business. It has to be a viable proposition.

I look at OWRS/Champ Car as a business that in 2004 had moderate potential for success in it's field. Not huge potential, but moderate, given the economic climate at that time and the prognosis for the future.

I tried to get my Bank(Top tier US house) involved in the series in 2004. I was a fan and our marketing department were interested. However, that did not work out for one reason or another.

Anyway, since early 2006 the series has taken a turn for the worst. On balance, the positive decisions have been overwhelmed by the negative ones.

I have followed the series decline and based on what I do know, I am able to deduce by logical inference using my business acumen, that it is in deep financial trouble.

At this stage the only way OWRS will survive, is if someone decides to donate several hundred million dollars to keep it going. Unfortunately for us fans, I am struggling to see who will step forward and be so charitable towards OWRS.

The only thing that will save Champ Car is charity, because as a viable business it has failed!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FlatChatRacer

ChaimWitz,

I work in Investment Banking and my training as an Accounting and Finance major has defined the view I tend to take on any business. It has to be a viable proposition.

I look at OWRS/Champ Car as a business that in 2004 had moderate potential for success in it's field. Not huge potential, but moderate, given the economic climate at that time and the prognosis for the future.

I tried to get my Bank(Top tier US house) involved in the series in 2004. I was a fan and our marketing department were interested. However, that did not work out for one reason or another.

Anyway, since early 2006 the series has taken a turn for the worst. On balance, the positive decisions have been overwhelmed by the negative ones.

I have followed the series decline and based on what I do know, I am able to deduce by logical inference using my business acumen, that it is in deep financial trouble.

At this stage the only way OWRS will survive, is if someone decides to donate several hundred million dollars to keep it going. Unfortunately for us fans, I am struggling to see who will step forward and be so charitable towards OWRS.

The only thing that will save Champ Car is charity, because as a viable business it has failed!

---

FlatChat, Thanks. What you wrote sums it up.

Hey, I just realized Sanguin never got back to us all to share the business premise and viability of ChampCar going forward. Hmm, I wonder why? It seems that he must be distracted. Perhaps this item from Pressdog explains it:

February 13, 2008

Doctors Report Alarming Increase in Swallowed Tongues, "Spaz Attacks"

Emergency rooms in the greater Indianapolis area have been flooded by a an outbreak of oddities according to multiple sources inside the medical community.

"This morning we had seven swallowed tongues," said one intern. "That's just *$%#@ed up. I mean, what would make someone swallow their tongue?"

Further investigation revealed a litany of bizarre events. Among the things reported in the greater Indy area:

16 spaz attacks
11 knipshun fits
9 cases of the vapors
21 incidents of sustained black flashes
6 life-threatening hyper ventilations
20 cases of uncontrolled frothing at the mouth
7 case of patients choking on their own vomit
4 cases of patients "nearly ****ting themselves to death"
15 cases of spontaneous loss of bladder control
Perhaps the most alarming was what doctors called "the birth of seven cows" in their emergency rooms.

"I'm not kidding," said a distraught E.R. doctor. "This woman came in and she was obviously in labor. Next thing I knew someone screamed 'she's having a cow' and, bam, there it was on the floor. A Holstein. She named it Kevin. Then it got really weird 20 minutes later when a 24-year-old man wearing an IndyCar series T-shirt came in -- and had an even bigger cow."

The cow birthing prompted the chief of medicine at a Indy hospital to declare it "the ***** thing I've ever seen."

The IndyCar T-shirt turned out to be the tip that investigators needed to make some sense of out of the bizarre events.

"Turns out all these people who were having knipshuns and frothing at the mouth and flopping around the floor like fish were open-wheel racing fans," said Lt. Peter Dormster of the Indy police. "We got a couple of Champ Car fans in isolation right now. Wearing paper suits."

Dormster explained that "paper suits" are literally jail jumpsuits made out of paper. Since the suit will tear easily, it cannot be used to hang yourself. "All we gotta hear is 'if this is true, I may hang myself' and we have their shoelaces, belts and they're stripped and put into paper suits."

"When we suggested that everyone take a break from the online news sites, blogs and forums -- just put down the Internet and slowly back away -- they became wildly violent," Dormster said. "We had to Taser a few of them. It was tense there for a while."

Wild rumors also circulated that some mainstream Indy media reported they were "six to nine inches shorter" recently. "We looked into it," said one medical professional. "Turns out it wasn't that big of a deal. They'd just been scooped repeatedly. They should grow out of it eventually."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by indycool

That may well be true, as long as they can make some $$$$. But a lot of those any more are on contingency.............the GOOD lawyers get some bread up front.

---

Or there is large amount of "principle" in their wallet. This fight could get very ugly, especially if there's an opportunity to publicize premeditated collusion and wrongdoing beyond any normally acceptable business framework.

Just what "premeditated collusion" would be either wrongdoing or illegal?

Okay, who cares what the denialistas want to believe? AR1 is reporting the following which fits with what I continue to hear.

"Champ Car to file for bankruptcy to facilitate merger UPDATE #10 As this rumor bounces back and forth between a go and a no-go for the merger, today we heard from three different sources that the deal is done."

So, what happens next?

We wait and see.

Chaparral66 and ChaimWitz,

Indeed, What Happens Next?

I have a hunch that we will have some definitive news within the next week.

PS: Does anyone know what the official deadline date for registering an IRL team and driver is?

Much like CC, don't think there IS one just to go racing.....maybe for the TEAM program or something. Indy's entry deadline is usually early April but haven't heard if it still is or not.

Based upon recent events, common sense dictates that there is a go/no go logistical deadline for something and I suspect it has everything to do with Long Beach and Motegi. I can't see how it is in the best interests of anyone involved to announce the plans regarding these events until the business issues are resolved between the CCWS and the IRL.

It is clear that the Amigos are under severe financial pressure with thier "investment" in OWRS so they want to cut their losses and thus avoid running the 2008 season therefore I believe it is now certain that Sebastian Bourdais will soon be forever remembered as the last Champion of ChampCar.

As detailed elsewhere in this thread, I also believe that very few, if any, CCWS races make money for the promoter and many are "free to the promoter" shows so closing down CCWS isn't the same as abruptly closing down the IRL or ALMS would be. That coupled with the likelihood of multiple teams leaving the CCWS (4-8 cars) means that there is nowhere left to hide from reality for the Amigos.

The one race that matters most to them is Long Beach because it is the only one that has any leverage left and it is likely the only CCWS race that has a prayer of turning a profit so the Amigos are looking to salvage it. This puts pressure on TG and Honda (ironically) regarding Motegi's conflicting date with the Toyota grand Prix of Long Beach. One way or another, from the Amigo's POV, the Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach must run. If not, I suspect that they probably lose their right to operate the race. TG and Honda hold the keys IMHO.

Once the deal is done to end the short, deceptive life of the OWRS, those involved will choose the best option to unify the sport. I imagine the options include:

1) Postponing or canceling this year's Motegi IRL race;

2) Running a last-ever ChampCar race at Long Beach while the IRL races in Japan and allowing points from either event to count towards the unified IndyCar Championship;

3) Holding the race at Long Beach as an exhibition event with 16 Champ Cars in a final race with eight Champ Car drivers and eight IndyCar drivers flown from Japan immediately following the race at Motegi on Friday evening;

4) The 2008 Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach Sunday Feature race becomes the American Le Mans Series race;

5) The 2008 Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach is run with Mazda Atlantic Cars!

All these options have costs attached to them and the $64,000,000 question is who will pay for whatever scenario is chosen?

One way or another, I believe something like what is outlined above will come to pass. I know many of you want the 2008 ChampCar season to happen but IMHO it simply makes no financial sense for the Amigos to keep the deception going so they won't. The chin music has stopped and we may have just seen ChampCar's last tango in Sebring.

Perhaps Sanguin, Clydekart or another brave CCWS defender-to-the-ender would like to argue otherwise here. My sense is that time is short but I do invite the counter argument because it would be wonderful to have it memorialized here for all to see when the odd story of OWRS does all finally come to an inglorious end this week.

To those of you who think I take pleasure in the death of our once great series, I don't. All this could potentially damage many people and businesses I care very much about. I still have a passion for what CART once was and my appreciation for the drivers and circuits that continued to make the CCWS something worthy of interest and respect lives on. The truth is I don't like or trust the Amigos after dealing with them first hand. Now the rest of the world gets to see why.

I will leave you now with the lyrics from a song by The Doors:

This is the end
Beautiful friend
This is the end
My only friend, the end
Of our elaborate plans, the end
Of everything that stands, the end
No safety or surprise, the end
I'll never look into your eyes again

Can you picture what will be
So limitless and free
Desperately in need of some stranger's hand
In a desperate land

Lost in a Roman wilderness of pain
And all the children are insane
All the children are insane
Waiting for the summer rain, yeah

There's danger on the edge of town
Ride the king's highway, baby
Weird scenes inside the gold mine
Ride the highway west, baby

Ride the snake, ride the snake
To the lake
The ancient lake, baby
The snake he's long, seven miles
Ride the snake
He's old


Here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHFK1...eature=related

Good post, ChaimWitz....no matter how many of us post what we think is going to happen, you list five options and for all we know, there could be 10 or more others. There's a thread at another forum where many different people, four pages worth, have mapped out what they think (and more likely, hope) a melded schedule would look like.

When you combine the necessities of a financially sound and creative promoter doing HIS schedule, the melded series doing its and at the same time working with ABC/ESPN's schedule-makers, you have a mass of variables. (Some Ph. D. mathematician can multiply all those back and forth plus available race dates and see how many combinations can exist.)

It would appear that the Long Beach-Motegi issue was the big one in the discussions, but Clarke used the term "optimistic."

Time will tell, but I agree it should tell us shortly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChaimWitz

My sense is that time is short but I do invite the counter argument because it would be wonderful to have it memorialized here for all to see when the odd story of OWRS does all finally come to an inglorious end this week.

---

I like it, a prediction.

I hope it all ends soon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nanders

I like it, a prediction.

I hope it all ends soon.

---

I don't agree....

It's a terrible way to end it....

Champcar deserves to survive in the merger, not die....

More time is needed to secure that...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jimispeed

I don't agree....

It's a terrible way to end it....

Champcar deserves to survive in the merger, not die....

More time is needed to secure that...

---

Okay Jimispeed, whatever.

The truth is that The Champ Car World Series has twice failed to prove its case as a viable business to teams, drivers, sponsors, manufacturers, TV partners, promoters, the media and the vast majority of the world's racing fans. More time won't change that.

Oh, and this is not a merger. It is the consolidation of a failed business into another business that is far more viable. To color it as something else is intellectually dishonest. This isn't a TV sitcom that is being cancelled and can somehow be revived by a fanatical online fan campaign. Sorry. The Four Stooges has been dumped and it ain't comin' back.

In my view (and I am far from alone) ChampCar does not deserve anything other than the fate created for it by the blind greed and blustering hubris of The Amigos. When it all finally goes Tango Uniform it will truly be the end of an error.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jimispeed

I don't agree....

It's a terrible way to end it....

Champcar deserves to survive in the merger, not die....

More time is needed to secure that...

---

Jimi, what part of THERE IS NO MONEY LEFT is that hard to understand?

If there was money left, do you think the Amigos would be looking to get out?

As far as CCWS "deserving" to survive, you should know that in ANY business, nothing is deserved, it is earned. Unfortunately, the poor management of the Amigos has probably removed much of that "deservidness" from the series, and future events will probably reflect that.

Time, in this case, is money. There is none of either left for CCWS, IMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tbyars

Jimi, what part of THERE IS NO MONEY LEFT is that hard to understand?

If there was money left, do you think the Amigos would be looking to get out?

As far as CCWS "deserving" to survive, you should know that in ANY business, nothing is deserved, it is earned. Unfortunately, the poor management of the Amigos has probably removed much of that "deservidness" from the series, and future events will probably reflect that.

Time, in this case, is money. There is none of either left for CCWS, IMO.

---

Amen to that, tbyars.

You know what's fun to watch this 2008 in CC? I am hoping to see a cancelled race, another article that the amigos are not getting along, and teams moving to IRL or anywhere. How do I know? Look in the past 4 years. As long as these clowns are still own and run this series, 5 bucks says it's getting worse and worse every year for the series, sadly. If I see Tony Cotman somewhere, I'll buy him a beer. I suggest some of you do that too. Buy him a beer for leaving his executive job working with his hands tied up. Sad to see where CC is now. But it's all business and that's the reality.

If I'm TG, I'd wait til 2010 until the Amigos are selling CC in ebay.

Indycool and ChaimWitz,
Thanks for the information and extrememly insightful and intelligent posts.

Tbyars,
I don't think you should be too hard on Jimispeed. We are all fans of Champ Car/CART, and it is very distressing to see what is unfolding right now. You know, it really should not be ending like this, but the reality of business can be harsh.

I hope Jimispeed will one day see an AOWR series that looks quite close to what he would like. Keep an open mind Jimispeed and you may see the IRL change their cars to be more aesthetically pleasing to the eye (Lola/Reynard circa (1997-2001), more road, natural terrain and airport courses on the schedule, and finally more American and Canadian drivers.

Finally to Cart750hp,
Please don't say that this is funny to watch, because it isn't. I know you don't mean to laugh at the hundreds of people who will struggling to find work and therefore pay bills in 2008, due to Champ Cars financial situation.

Believe me, all the people who have depended on Champ Car for direct and indirect employment will not find that work in the IRL, ALMS or NASCAR. A few will, and quite a lot won't.

These are difficult times for those people. Let's be sympathetic and grateful for all their hard work since 2004.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FlatChatRacer

Indycool and ChaimWitz,
Finally to Cart750hp,
Please don't say that this is funny to watch, because it isn't. I know you don't mean to laugh at the hundreds of people who will struggling to find work and therefore pay bills in 2008, due to Champ Cars financial situation.

Believe me, all the people who have depended on Champ Car for direct and indirect employment will not find that work in the IRL, ALMS or NASCAR. A few will, and quite a lot won't.

These are difficult times for those people. Let's be sympathetic and grateful for all their hard work since 2004.

---

I think I'm over being sympathetic about this situation. For me, I'm in a point where if you are associated with CC and can continue on working under these circumstances for the past 4 years, it's no longer CC's management fault when worse come to worst. Sure, employment is hard but there is no reason not to find one 2-4 years ago. And with what's going on in CC as we speak, ever thought of sending their resume somewhere else? I'm being sarcastic, of course, to how the CC ownership and management are still continuing on. For me this is more than a joke. For the people who are working or hanging on, maybe they could've start checking their options 4 years ago. Just my opinion, of course.

FCR, just IMO, but I think the idea presented in the CART bankruptcy hearing about how many jobs would be lost, and that idea presented again now, has been A) overpresented in number, and B) is constantly present in major league sports.

A vendor of widgets or crabcakes isn't going to go out of business if the Grand Prix of Waxahatchie doesn't take place. He's going to do his business and try to find somewhere else to sell widgets or crabcakes.

Mechanics, team receptionists, PR guys and gals, marketing people....they move around all the time.

It's the professional sports world. Mike Bibby just got traded from Sacramento to the Atlanta Hawks for four players. Those four are expected to be in some city Tuesday to play for the Kings. Remember to pack your underwear and toothpaste and your plane leaves in two hours and the equipment manager is on the phone to ask how you spell your name and what size jersey you wear and what number you want.

How many players go to camp with an NFL team? 80-90? They can keep 53 plus six, I think, on a practice squad at low pay. 30-odd people out of jobs in "X" number of cities on cutdown day. Some go somewhere else, some sell insurance.

This is a sports world that the fan doesn't see, an EVENT world that a fan doesn't see. But to say the clerk at the Hyatt in Toronto is going to lose his job if there's no CC race there is ridiculous, IMO.

Indycool,

I am not referring to the clerk in a Toronto Hotel or any other Hotel where Champ Car has pitched a tent before.

I am talking about the mechanics, engineers, marketing and other professionals who are associated with Champ Car. Some of those people will lose out when the dust finally settles on this mess.

However, to take CART750hp point about looking for a job. I have to agree that if you are a forward thinking employee of Champ Car, then your resume/CV will already be doing the rounds in other series or another industry altogether.

I am just trying to make the point that this is NOT fun to watch! IMO of course.

Oh, true, some will miss, some will luck out, some new people will be hired. There'll be a scramble. The teams that are viable now will be viable in a melded series but most likely, there'll be fewer teams. Some of those teams are volunteer-type efforts, anyway. Matter of fact, how many drivers in CC aren't paid?

So, this is finally "it". The Split is all but over and we all (most of us, at least) move forward together. My hope is that in few months we will all ask ourselves "what took so long?". I also hope the sport's leaders remember to ask themselves the question that Dr. Jack used to start this thread. "What happens next?" is now what everyone should be focused on. Yesterday I took a moment to re-read post number 1 in this thread. I suggest you do as well. Please reflect on what we have all lost in the 14 years since this sad argument began and then reflect on what we have to gain in the century ahead. Here's is to a new day and a unified future for our sport!

Dr. Jack, Does this mean another "Crest" backed effort? :)