Only solution is more teams. Everything else is a temporary bandage that won't change anything in the long run.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
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Only solution is more teams. Everything else is a temporary bandage that won't change anything in the long run.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
"Pavlos Athanassoulas, the event director of the Acropolis Rally Greece, told Cosmote TV in an interview that all three manufacturers agreed that the current classification period should be respected until the end of 2026. Furthermore, Athanassoulas revealed that the Rally2 car manufacturers are also united with the top category teams against the FIA’s proposals for next year."
https://rallyjournal.com/information...-championship/
Elfyn Evans on the test when the Yaris Rally1 car was fitted with a smaller rear wing, and the air intakes for the hybrid unit were also blocked..
https://rallyjournal.com/wrc-star-te...-at-one-point/
:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Did you test the 2025 prototype?
“I don’t know.”
...
I guess your opinion is that this is not the way to go?
“I think my opinion on it is quite clear.”
Now Latvala commenting..
Https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/toyot...ulations-test/
Everybody whining and writing off the ,,new'' regulations, but I haven't heard any suggestions from drivers/teams/principals if asked..
Only that everything is bad and Manu's don't want this..
Latvala already said for 2025-2026 they should just take the hybrids out.Quote:
Originally Posted by TypeR
On that subject
https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/f...ment/10604634/
"Autosport understands a compromise on regulations for next year is being discussed with a solution likely to be communicated to teams next month."
Hopefully, like it's been said many times before, they'll just remove the hybrid unit out.
The Teams were never complaining about the Regulations (Rally1 cars, or too few of them), they only wanted better promotion of the WRC and the set-up of the events.Quote:
Originally Posted by TypeR
And you cant disagree with Latvala's argument over the daft idea of making the Teams Rally1 cars so much slower that a private teams Rally2 Plus could compete with them.
Just focus on 27. Full focus. No new manufacturers will come before then, and no new ones will come if clear new regs aren't settled for 2027 by the end of the year (latest first few months on 2025).
If Toyota and Hyundai get their way to stick with current regs until then, then run an extra car in the meantime. Msport AND Ford want the regs to remain, so either make a car more affordable to rent or take the hybrid out and test young drivers (with a token help from the wrc promoter).
Reality is, these three manufacturers have it easy. Can gloss up wins or podiums on every rally as there's no real competition. They'd all lose their sh*t if VW came back in some capacity with a 4car team and a win at all cost budget for Skoda/audi/vw etc etc, and Stellantis joined in. Keep an eye out for what the Renault group do, to. Back marker in F1 season after season but could build a potential leading WRC team on an absolute fraction of the budget (but with cars resembling what they sell daily).
Annoying thing is, if that muppet Richards is spearheading the future of the WRC he will more likely kill us off for good, than rejuvenate the series. With the lack of direction the championship simply bends over to the current marques
I seriously doubt that Renault group will ever even consider of joining WRC. They never were serious about that championship. Those lower classes doesn't count as nobody care past Rally2.Quote:
Originally Posted by er88
There is more brands with herritage in rallying like Citroen, Peugeot, Proton, Lancia, Audi, Mitsubishi, Subaru... we could say even Skoda is now building herritage with that Rally2 killer. But Renault, not them. They simply don't care.
Renault have bigger fish to fry, at the moment they have next year's Dakar to worry about and with Audi out of the picture, they'll do everything to take it. As for Skoda, wasn't there talk back in 2019 that they had plans to come back to the WRC before Covid-19 binned it all?Quote:
Originally Posted by deephouse
off course i couldnt find the link today, but renault brought a "racing version" of the R5 3E during its release and literally said they talked to fia about rallying that car but 'evs were still not on the table' in wrc's mind. i swear something along these lines happened but i cant find. maybe later on my notebook. i found this one, but this is not the one i've read. https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/renau...lying-by-2025/
based on some talks from that time i got my suggestion of having rally2 as top class but only for privateers and constumers, factory teams must run hydrogen, hybrid or electric rally2s (bop)
As I wrote you in another thread* the simple problem with EVs in rallying is that at the current tech level they are not competitive at all and they won't be in forseenable future. The only way to make them competitive is artificially making other existing rally cars slow. That of course won't happen and I am sure people in Renault know that.Quote:
Originally Posted by saco0o
* Here: https://www.motorsportforums.com/sho...=1#post1344517
This seems to be the way...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
"The WRC Promoter is funding Sesks’ drives in the Ford Puma. According to WRC Promoter’s event director Simon Larkin, Sesks’s contract was a breakthrough.
“It’s part of our new commitment to invest in drivers to bridge the gap between Rally2 and Rally1, and also to have more Rally1 cars out there,” Larkin explains.
“I think this is exciting news, and it’s the first of what we believe will be quite a few announcements for 2024,” Larkin promises.
https://rallyjournal.com/wrc-team-pr...announcements/
I think you need a lesson in history. How can you compare Renault's and Skoda's heritage in rallying with Proton? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by deephouse
I love Renault rally cars:
https://www.ultimatecarpage.com/img/...rse-68179.html
https://www.wrcwings.tech/wp-content...l-1987-2nd.jpg
https://klassikauto.pl/renault-11-tu...h-motul-hrsmp/
https://www-dirtfish.imgix.net/2021/...psize=panorama
And Skoda? Building herritage? Didn't they celebrate 100 years in motorsport not so long ago? :)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/93207294@N04/50779857281
There was talk like that yes but that was pure big mouth marketing. It's easy making claims like that in the current automotive environment, yet those claims can be based on a pipe dream fantasy. Even if EV's would be allowed and the championship dumbed down to the according level, I highly doubt they would join and make their talk reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by saco0o
To add some fuel to the fire: https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/s...sion/10605045/
But seriously speaking, like many have said here, focus on getting the 2027 regulations right and we might (after what would be 10 years) get another manufacturer involved.
More from Latvala...
https://rallyjournal.com/now-thats-a...ly-speaks-out/
And Ogier says a detuned Rally1 will still be spectacular and a benefit if it's cheaper to bring more drivers.
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/detun...rld-for-ogier/
If a manu team so called ,,principal'' worries about that ,,home-made'' cars would be faster than works-team cars, then maybe look in the mirror..
There are fast wrc2 drivers, who can't get close enough to top drivers.. with same cars.
They are just in a comfort zones and maybe afraid that citroen or skoda would knock on the door with new regs..
He's probably also taking into account the extra zeros they sink into the series which Citroen and Skoda make buck from.Quote:
Originally Posted by TypeR
I dont believe Rally1 Detuned or Rally2 Plus will ever happen and compete with each other.
Until 2027, the compromise has to be cheaper access to the Rally1 cars to enable more cars & (local) drivers in the WRC1 top level.
Not sure if posted here before, Evan's test prior to Croatia with footage of the Rally1 Yaris in 2025-spec...
https://youtu.be/ALLO7rds-yI?si=FRdZ5LDkRZcxMPOV
I watched that without reading your description and thought "it seems a bit restrained, not quite as savage as it might be". Then I read about the "2025 spec" and thought "oh".Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
I find this whole 2025 question depressing because my head says "Just go to WRC2 because the economics work" and my heart wants very fast cars like the current R1 which are thrilling to watch.
Perhaps simpler cars with more power might be a way to reconcile "spectacular" with "cheaper" -- 2-litre turbos without the hybrids, torque vectoring, big aero, complex gearboxes and so on. But that would be a 2027 thing, not a 2025 thing.
No easy answer to this.
You can hardly go simpler than current Rally1 in most of the mentioned areas. Sure the engines could be based on a roadcar block and the aero could be made even smaller (it's already pretty simple/lazy) but other than that, the cars don't have overly fancy front and rear differentials, no center differentials, simple gearbox and form what I've heard very Rally2 like suspension components.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morte66
Where could costs been saved? Who knows.
The stock-based engine is becoming a disadvantage of Rally2 not an advantage. Less and less stock units are suitable for racing use and I'm quite sure that no other manufactruer will build a special stock car for turning it into a Rally2 like Toyota did.
So WRC and WRC2 are done.
Last few cars will race till it's end and then good night.
No other suggestions needed.
E: about Toyota... Latvala has complaining for many years, but they are the only ones publicly testing new cars and new regulations..
They were already testing a totallly new wrc car and then suddenly cancelled it..
Most likely it would have been even better than Polo WRC had been..
Aaaand now we are talking about just taking this HY system out and slower the cars..
Wonderful idea from the Manus.. just afraid of new teams/drivers.
Not only. It is WAY cheaper to run the current cars than developing new ones. It's normal that they don't want to develop something new. On the other hand without that no new manufacturers will join...Quote:
Originally Posted by TypeR
That isn't the Manus idea nor is it to attract new ones, what do you mean?Quote:
Originally Posted by TypeR
Cheaper for manufacturers, but there won't be any privateers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Rally2-based regulations are a must to draw more entries.
periodQuote:
Originally Posted by naburu38
There's already a Rally2-based regulation for privateers. No cause for concern there.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaBUru38
For me it sound reasonable to remove Hybrid from the car in terms of cost saving. If I am not mistaken, one unit is ca 15% of the total car cost. And in most of the rallies, more than one unit is used + charging infrastructure + support engineer from Compaq Dynamics, + etc. Next reasonable step would be likely prohibiting carbon use in the parts that get destroyed most frequently (starting from bumpers, door sills, front fins, etc. Maybe a few other things in lower part of the car. You loose the weight with hybrid, gain a bit with cheaper plastics, loose a bit of power. With these rather simple solutions you can reduce car price and running costs quite significantly :)
Rally2 based regulations would only make Rally2 a lot more expensive, less equal and less reliable. It is not a solution but a quick fix to WRC which would do more harm than good in a long run.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaBUru38
It will not happen.
They have got a deal done for Sesks to drive a Rally1 car and with hybrid power on the 2nd event. This should happen for more 'locals' on other WRC rounds as promised.Quote:
Originally Posted by bluuford
Removing the hybrid system isnt right and will spoil the cars for it was designed for from scratch. Plus Hyundai and Ford said hybrid was the only way they would enter WRC to promote this in their road cars.
It didn't sound right to me either, however, before 2022 I remember discussing here the deployment strategies and mapping etc, how it could become a tactical thing, but obviously it never was. If it gets mentioned it's either X has got no hybrid or X hybrid isn't working properly. It's impressive to see them off the start line on tarmac but I think I'll live happily without it. More concerning, Wheatley (I think) said the reduced weight from removing the unit justifies the reduction in engine power to retain the same kg/hp, but in my maths that doesn't add up. They will be slower, that's wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Let me ask about Ford though, where do they ever promote WRC activity or technology in their road cars? These were just empty words to sell the hybrid Rally1 to fans when it was the FIA's idea.
nope. its a world championship. the biggest after formula 1. it CANNOT keep being a series with 7 cars on the top class, whatever it takes. rallycross has been having the same problem. they couldnt even put out a 5 race calendar for 2024 because the tracks dont want the championship and the fans dont want to watch. wrc cannot fall into the same black holeQuote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
WRX is not a manufacturer series, WRC is not a privateer/teams series, they shouldn't be compared. Privateers and teams aren't travelling the globe as WRX shows, so why suggest privateers are the answer for WRC? Without manufacturer investment in WRC, the promoter has to step in and these working group decisions show they still choose a Rally1 top tier with the fewer cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by saco0o
WRC2 already exists and Rally2 is very popular to the point of oversubscription on European events, but it cannot sustain the series itself, nor multiple events for much of the participants. Why do people expect making either it or something indistinguishable from it as the 'main class' will a) attract privateers to compete globally full time when they weren't already, and b) save the series?
The main thing is that a global series like WRC can not live without manufacturer's money and big sponsors bound to them. Privateers can't fund the series as it is. That is simply impossible.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
You cant expect Ford to accept ditching the hybrid early.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
Ford are killing all their ICE road cars fast and going for EV only. Plus they are the only ones with Eco-Boost HYBRID plastered on their WRC Rally1 car.