another school shooting in U.S. of A. :(

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I give up.

There is no irony in my statements whatsoever. I believe there to be at least a degree of paranoia and fear underlying the desire for gun ownership. Everything I have read in this discussion has borne this out. However, nothing that I have written has been in any sense anti-American. I've been critical of one aspect of your country's laws — that's all. This is also, I'd underline, a matter of my opinion. By contrast, it is a fact that I am in no-sense anti-American. I think I'd know this better than you. So, enough of the 'they're all against us and we don't care' whining. An apology is due. I would never dislike an entire nation.

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Can you at least concede that your statement regarding the Swiss murders/gun laws/and culture can be seen to be anti-American? You basically have said that you can not trust Americans with that statement. Why can you not see that? I suppose for the same reason that you can not see that reasonable people can have differing opinions. Everyone must hold your opinion, or they are wrong/paranoid/fearful/etc.

I am done with this line of the thread.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

Now over 1000 posts and to be honest, it seems that many of the pro gun crowd and responsibly gun owners are much more open to compromise than those opposing guns.

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Only one of those advocating the policy, namely Jag_Warrior, has actually come up with anything much beyond what I'd define as 'fiddling in the margins'. In addition, to my eyes it's only Jag_Warrior who, as it were, 'gets it'; who admits there's a problem, who understands the notion of an underlying culture being a contributing factor.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I think I know the sense and meaning of my words better than do you, with respect.

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But clearly you do not understand how others interpret your comments.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Can you at least concede that your statement regarding the Swiss murders/gun laws/and culture can be seen to be anti-American?

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No, I will not concede that, because it's simply not true.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Only one of those advocating the policy, namely Jag_Warrior, has actually come up with anything much beyond what I'd define as 'fiddling in the margins'. In addition, to my eyes it's only Jag_Warrior who, as it were, 'gets it'; who admits there's a problem, who understands the notion of an underlying culture being a contributing factor.

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I don't believe anyone on this thread has stated that there is no problem. Many of us are merely stating the fact that adding more and more restrictive gun laws on law abiding citizens does NOTHING to solve the problem. And to top it off your "solution" to the problem is completely unworkable, and unrealistic.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

But clearly you do not understand how others interpret your comments.

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By contrast, I think I understand exactly why.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

I don't believe anyone on this thread has stated that there is no problem. Many of us are merely stating the fact that adding more and more restrictive gun laws on law abiding citizens does NOTHING to solve the problem. And to top it off your "solution" to the problem is completely unworkable, and unrealistic.

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What 'solution' have I proposed, exactly?

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Originally Posted by Starter

You confuse policy making with the flavor of the day. And then, only if it's YOUR favorite flavor.

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I wouldn't call gun control a flavor of the day unless you think the last 20 years of group/children shootings should be considered recent. Remember the original assault weapons ban came from a preschool shooting spree in 1991 or 1992. And remember we're talking about gun control, not gun prohibition. On those grounds, I'd say political elements that oppose any restrictions are a more radical and intransigent group than anyone advocating a strengthening of regulations.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

So your point is that since Feinstein is from a larger state, and therefore has a larger voting pool, that she is somehow "better"??????

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No........she represents more individual Americans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b5LzCOc98E

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

What 'solution' have I proposed, exactly?

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Part of the issue with your posts is that you have proposed no solutions, other than wishful thinking. I challenged you, a day or two ago, to bring your solutions forward. You declined to do so.

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Originally Posted by Gregor-y

And remember we're talking about gun control, not gun prohibition. On those grounds, I'd say political elements that oppose any restrictions are a more radical and intransigent group than anyone advocating a strengthening of regulations.

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Not quite accurate, in that many of the so called gun control restrictions are nothing more than disguised gun bans. As noted in a number of threads in this post, gun regulations are abundant in the US. Their enforcement and the resulting prosecution of criminal use of guns is part of the issue.

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Originally Posted by Starter

Not quite accurate, in that many of the so called gun control restrictions are nothing more than disguised gun bans. As noted in a number of threads in this post, gun regulations are abundant in the US. Their enforcement and the resulting prosecution of criminal use of guns is part of the issue.

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This proposed bill is a BAN, plain and simple. It's not disguised, it Bans not only military style weapons, but shotguns, handguns and a large class of rifles. It also includes restrictions that absolutely are infringements as well as deliberate measures to cloud exactly what it's total intent is, to ban firearms, prohibit any possibility of legal transfer of very valuavle personal property between law abiding family members. It does nothing to address the problem, the failure of our justice system to address illegal possession of firearms, and it totally sets the scene for forcible confiscation of ALL firearms just as is already on the books in Kalifornia.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

There is a sense in which she's being more courageous in mounting this campaign than are the vast majority of firearm owners.

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Courageous?

How is using the force of the government to disarm the people who you want to control courageous?

A real man would call it cowardly.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Whether deliberately or not, you completely misunderstand and misrepresent what I wrote. I criticised a section of American opinion; you take this to mean that I 'don't like Americans'. This is utter nonsense, and I'd ask you to apologise. I don't like the American gun culture, true, but this is a very different thing. Surely you have the wit to draw the distinction?

'Truly troubling'? Really? Cease the hyperbole.

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I would prefer that you would just say thank you for us Americans saving you and your country's ass on more than one occasion and then be on your way.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

As I expected — you don't truly believe in freedom of speech and expression. It's just a front. As soon as it diverts what you consider to be too far from your own views, you're willing to see people, for example, impeached.

As an afterthought, I'm increasingly delighted the UK doesn't have a written constitution for people to get absurdly hung-up about.

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Freedom of speech means that you must accept responsibility for your words as well. Impeachment is part of the Democratic process. Something that along with freedom of speech you and your fellow subjects fail to grasp.

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Originally Posted by Dr Giacomo Rappaccini

Lugar got punked in his 2012 bid for re-election and isn't even part of the 113th Congress. BTW the entire population of Indiana is 6.5 million, over one million less residents including unregistererd voters, felons that are prohibited from voting, and those of an age too young to vote than Feinstein received from the reseidents of "The Great State of California". In the here and now the constituency that is made up of residents in The Great State of Indiana decided he bro sucks. 61%-39%

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM01v_vVnbg

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Yea but California is experiencing one of the largest internal migrations in US History. The productive people are bailing on that sinking progressive ship that captained by Governor Moonbeam and his Democrat brown Shirts.

High Taxes and yet your state is still broke.......and your beaches suck.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Yea but California is experiencing one of the largest internal migrations in US History. The productive people are bailing on that sinking progressive ship that captained by Governor Moonbeam and his Democrat brown Shirts.

High Taxes and yet your state is still broke.......and your beaches suck.

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I work with 9 people, all life long residents that have relocated to Baltimore from California. To the last one, they all said they were disgusted by the liberal politicians ruining the state the insane restrictions on nearly every asPect of their life, and the insane taxation necessary to continually support everyone with a hand out. Quite an indictment of california if they all feel Maryland Is a vastly more tolerable place to live and work.

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Originally Posted by Starter

Part of the issue with your posts is that you have proposed no solutions, other than wishful thinking. I challenged you, a day or two ago, to bring your solutions forward. You declined to do so.

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I would have thought that the reason is obvious: that I believe the only solution that could ever achieve the desired effect is the one generally deemed unworkable, namely imposition of far tighter restrictions.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

I would prefer that you would just say thank you for us Americans saving you and your country's ass on more than one occasion and then be on your way.

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The day I do anything that you would 'prefer' will be the day on which either I die or hell freezes over.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

There is a sense in which she's being more courageous in mounting this campaign than are the vast majority of firearm owners.

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She's not courageous, she's been actively trying to disarm the American public with virtually the same legislation for over 20 years.She sponsored the original AW ban and state legislation while actively carrying a firearm for personal protection. She's a blatant elitist hypocrit.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Courageous?

How is using the force of the government to disarm the people who you want to control courageous?

A real man would call it cowardly.

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Courageous as in politically courageous; daring to be deeply unpopular.

Please, while you're about it, offer us your definition of a 'real man'. I should imagine it's predictably narrow.

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Originally Posted by nigelred5

She's not courageous, she's been actively trying to disarm the American public with virtually the same legislation for over 20 years.She sponsored the original AW ban and state legislation while actively carrying a firearm for personal protection. She's a blatant elitist hypocrit.

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In adopting a stance that's clearly deeply unpopular, I would argue that she's being politically courageous. I do take the point about the hypocrisy, though.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Can you at least concede that your statement regarding the Swiss murders/gun laws/and culture can be seen to be anti-American?

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Again I ask: are you going to apologise for this assertion?

You may as well say I'm anti-British when I, for example, criticise the culture of under-achievement amongst boys in schools. It's exactly the same thing: criticism of the culture relating to one specific area, yet, predictably, you saw it as an attack on all your fellow countrymen.

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Originally Posted by nigelred5

I work with 9 people, all life long residents that have relocated to Baltimore from California. To the last one, they all said they were disgusted by the liberal politicians ruining the state the insane restrictions on nearly every asPect of their life, and the insane taxation necessary to continually support everyone with a hand out.

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God, and we thought Somalia was bad...

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

In adopting a stance that's clearly deeply unpopular, I would argue that she's being politically courageous. I do take the point about the hypocrisy, though.

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I'd don't call it courageous when she and her like have essentially. run everyone opposed to a disgustingly socialist view from her state. She's popular in her home state because people that value handouts and a nanny state over hard work and personal accountability are what's left. Take a poll of people in this country that would gladly give California its independence. Hell, half the state would gladly separate California in pieces to get away from their liberal counterparts. My state is a bastion of conservatism compared to California. And I generally consider myself a relative moderate.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I would have thought that the reason is obvious: that I believe the only solution that could ever achieve the desired effect is the one generally deemed unworkable, namely imposition of far tighter restrictions.

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Which you have said several times in this thread. Why then do you continually post the same position over and over? I respect your thought whether I agree with it or not. Some of my personal friends are anti gun, but I like them anyway. Why then do you continually try and beat us over the head with your views? Obviously I can't speak for everyone, but I got your position the first time. You have brought nothing new to the table since. Your continually posting the same thing in this thread reminds me of a three year old who, when someone says something they don't like, covers their ears and goes "lalalalalalala" at the top of their voice. I'm pretty sure you are better than that. You stated your position so perhaps you should move on to another subject, since you choose not to participate, in any meaningful way, in the ongoing discussion.

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Originally Posted by nigelred5

I'd don't call it courageous when she and her like have essentially. run everyone opposed to a disgustingly socialist view from her state. She's popular in her home state because people that value handouts and a nanny state over hard work and personal accountability are what's left. Take a poll of people in this country that would gladly give California its independence. Hell, half the state would gladly separate California in pieces to get away from their liberal counterparts. My state is a bastion of conservatism compared to California. And I generally consider myself a relative moderate.

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I wouldn't consider you to be a moderate.

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Originally Posted by Starter

Which you have said several times in this thread. Why then do you continually post the same position over and over? I respect your thought whether I agree with it or not. Some of my personal friends are anti gun, but I like them anyway. Why then do you continually try and beat us over the head with your views? Obviously I can't speak for everyone, but I got your position the first time. You have brought nothing new to the table since. Your continually posting the same thing in this thread reminds me of a three year old who, when someone says something they don't like, covers their ears and goes "lalalalalalala" at the top of their voice. I'm pretty sure you are better than that. You stated your position so perhaps you should move on to another subject, since you choose not to participate, in any meaningful way, in the ongoing discussion.

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The reason I keep posting is because I disagree vehemently with a lot of what I see here, and because few others seem willing to enter into the discussion and disagree with you. Numerically, it appears dominated by pro-gun Americans. And I seem to have to rebut a lot of absolute nonsense regarding my own position — that I'm a fascist, that I'm anti-American and so on, much of it coming from people whose political compasses seem terribly skewed, or worse.

One other thing — I have no idea why you respect my thoughts, given that you disagree with them. By all means respect the right to have them, but I think respecting the thoughts themselves is a cop-out when you oppose them.

At this rate who knows how much longer this thread is going to last before we get shot down.

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Originally Posted by race aficionado

At this rate who knows how much longer this thread is going to last before we get shot down.

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I know a guy....that can be arranged ;)

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

The reason I keep posting is because I disagree vehemently with a lot of what I see here, and because few others seem willing to enter into the discussion and disagree with you. Numerically, it appears dominated by pro-gun Americans. And I seem to have to rebut a lot of absolute nonsense regarding my own position — that I'm a fascist, that I'm anti-American and so on, much of it coming from people whose political compasses seem terribly skewed, or worse.

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It's dominated by pro-gun Americans because it's an American issue. It's enlightening to note that there is not a lot of anti-gun sentiment expressed by Americans here, tells you something if you are listening.

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One other thing — I have no idea why you respect my thoughts, given that you disagree with them. By all means respect the right to have them, but I think respecting the thoughts themselves is a cop-out when you oppose them.

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I respect the thoughts of most who can state them in a clear manner. Much can be learned by listening to people of opposing views. Sometimes it even leads to changing your own views. Only fools think there are no other valuable viewpoints in the world.

Your right to have those thoughts is a tenet of American existence - as opposed to many places in the world.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I wouldn't consider you to be a moderate.

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Oh, you would be surprised. My nickname with quite a few of my friends is actually Ivan because they think I'm a pinko commie. I don't disagree with to goals of many social programs, it's the methods to achieve those means that tend to disgust me. Essentially Taking my guns because they scare you just crosses the line soooooo far for me.

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Originally Posted by nigelred5

Oh, you would be surprised. My nickname with quite a few of my friends is actually Ivan because they think I'm a pinko commie. I don't disagree with to goals of many social programs, it's the methods to achieve those means that tend to disgust me.

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Fair enough — my apologies if I misrepresented you.

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Originally Posted by nigelred5

Essentially Taking my guns because they scare you just crosses the line soooooo far for me.

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Not what I'm saying at all, but never mind.

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Originally Posted by Starter

It's dominated by pro-gun Americans because it's an American issue. It's enlightening to note that there is not a lot of anti-gun sentiment expressed by Americans here, tells you something if you are listening.

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A majority of people support all sorts of things I find abhorrent.

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Originally Posted by Starter

Your right to have those thoughts is a tenet of American existence - as opposed to many places in the world.

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Again, there's no need to single the US out here, as opposed to any of the other countries whose citizens are represented here. I know you're not doing so, but I resent deeply some of the suggestions one hears that the form of freedom espoused by Americans is somehow unique and superior.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

The day I do anything that you would 'prefer' will be the day on which either I die or hell freezes over.

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You already live in hell so how's the weather?

Interesting little facts

In 2010 more people died in the UK from such things as:
Accidental poisoning by and exposure to alcohol
Accidental poisoning by and exposure to narcotics and psychodysleptics [hallucinogens], not elsewhere classified
Intentional self-harm by hanging, strangulation and suffocation By a factor of X8
Fall by a factor of X10


Than all Americans killed by someone with a rifle.....Including those vile, evil Assault Rifles.

Now remember that the USA's population is 5 times greater than the number of "Subjects" in the UK.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Only one of those advocating the policy, namely Jag_Warrior, has actually come up with anything much beyond what I'd define as 'fiddling in the margins'. In addition, to my eyes it's only Jag_Warrior who, as it were, 'gets it'; who admits there's a problem, who understands the notion of an underlying culture being a contributing factor.

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I said that way back in Post 713 and you ridiculed me for saying it. And I included more than just the culture. I said our ethics, our politics, our psychology, our economy--along with our culture--made solving our gun control issue a complicated one.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Again, there's no need to single the US out here, as opposed to any of the other countries whose citizens are represented here. I know you're not doing so, but I resent deeply some of the suggestions one hears that the form of freedom espoused by Americans is somehow unique and superior.

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My bad, I shold have been more clear when I said "Your right to have those thoughts is a tenet of American existence - as opposed to many places in the world.". I meant by the American reference that it's codifyed in our Bill of Rights. Along with all of the other rights so included.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

High Taxes and yet your state is still broke.......and your beaches suck.

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Yea' our beaches bro suck!

http://tonyrobertsphotography.com/wp...h%20100667.jpg


At least we have some freakin' waves!!!

http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-ge.../017483-01.jpg
http://travelbugster.files.wordpress...a-coast-x2.jpg

And my favotite, Point Reyes State Park (below) Of course someone of your girth could not handle the 4 mile hike through some of the most beautiful land in our country to enjoy it.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/trazzler-ima...af1fae43-1.jpg

You are more than 100lbs overweight aren't you?
Go to 1:00 of Tony's webcast........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W35un-1YIM

You are bro dying of obeasity dude!! Do you hang out at the beach much? You must be a sight with your shirt off!!

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Originally Posted by nigelreds

they all feel Maryland Is a vastly more tolerable place to live and work.

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Sorry your boyz couldn't hang dawg!! How's the weather up in there right about Jan 3 2013 in Baltimore?.....San Diego high 67F

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Yea but California is experiencing one of the largest internal migrations in US History.

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California's population has continued to increase every year from 1850-2012.

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California is still growing and although it is difficult to track down any predictions, there is no reason to suggest that this growth will slow down. As such, could the population of California continue the trend and explode beyond the 40 million mark by the time of the next Census in 2020?
Population of California 2012 - World Population Review

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Now get yourself on a Stairmaster for christ’s sake!!!! :rotflmao: [

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Originally Posted by nigelred5

It does nothing to address the problem, the failure of our justice system to address illegal possession of firearms, and it totally sets the scene for forcible confiscation of ALL firearms just as is already on the books in Kalifornia.

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How do you trust the justice system to enforce laws, when you don't give the proper authorities enough power to enforce them?