People Power

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

I'm not against the gap closing (I'm all for everyone having money/being secure/happy etc) but I am against people expecting things to be done for them to get it instead of doing it themselves.

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But so do I. So do many of those protesting. The friends of mine who have taken part are far from being the sort of people you describe.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

For me REAL success is raising my kids to be hard working men who respect their elders, respect that hard work, dedication and persistance is the key to success and to ensure my wife and I can retire happily later in life. Having money is just a bonus. You can't take money with you when you die, but you can keep your legacy when you are gone.

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In that I wholeheartedly agree with you.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

I'm not against the gap closing.

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:up:

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

I am against people expecting things to be done for them to get it instead of doing it themselves.

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:up:

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

The fact is there are people out there that refuse to put in the hard work and effort to do things for themselves yet they expect these things as some sort of "right" of theirs, so they publicly protest and interupt the rest of our lives in the HOPE that they get what they want.

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Yes, there are some people like that out there, but there are also many (more, I suspect) who want to improve themselves and their position but simply cannot do so for many different reasons (access to education, health etc). I believe they should be able to do so, and that everything should be done to remove barriers to them doing so because we all benefit in the long run. That doesn't mean handing things to them on a plate!

Assuming that the Occupy movement is only made up of "lazy" people makes it easy to dismiss it, but I think that would be an unfair characterisation of many of those taking part.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

I'm not against the gap closing (I'm all for everyone having money/being secure/happy etc) but I am against people expecting things to be done for them to get it instead of doing it themselves. The fact is there are people out there that refuse to put in the hard work and effort to do things for themselves yet they expect these things as some sort of "right" of theirs, so they publicly protest and interupt the rest of our lives in the HOPE that they get what they want. Poor form :down:

People need to start appreciating what they have and not what they don't have.

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I don't suppose that you've been to Soweto have you? The people of Soweto earn on average just 17% of the wage as the people in the rest of Johannesburg; maybe the township of Kliptown means something to you?
Do you mean to suggest that the people of Soweto should expect that nothing should be done for them and they should do it themselves?
People born into places of poverty in many cases simply cannot afford things like education, electricity and whatnot and yet you expect them to merely fend for themselves?

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Originally Posted by Rollo

I don't suppose that you've been to Soweto have you? The people of Soweto earn on average just 17% of the wage as the people in the rest of Johannesburg; maybe the township of Kliptown means something to you?
Do you mean to suggest that the people of Soweto should expect that nothing should be done for them and they should do it themselves?
People born into places of poverty in many cases simply cannot afford things like education, electricity and whatnot and yet you expect them to merely fend for themselves?

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They are all being given free houses, free medical care, free education, child grants etc etc which come from my taxes. If they can't improve their lives with those advantages, then what else do we do?

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

:up:


:up:


Yes, there are some people like that out there, but there are also many (more, I suspect) who want to improve themselves and their position but simply cannot do so for many different reasons (access to education, health etc). I believe they should be able to do so, and that everything should be done to remove barriers to them doing so because we all benefit in the long run. That doesn't mean handing things to them on a plate!

Assuming that the Occupy movement is only made up of "lazy" people makes it easy to dismiss it, but I think that would be an unfair characterisation of many of those taking part.

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:up: :)

I'm sure many of us in this forum can also talk about our professional/economical successes in life that have come to us by our hard work, responsibility, commitment, desire, etc.

Some of us are practicing our professions by having gone through the "higher education" route or by learning it "on the job".

Bottom line is that like many, many others out there that NOW want what we achieved and that are equally hard working, committed and responsible people, the fact is that for them, at this moment of time - there are LESS OPPORTUNITIES out there.

It's a fact.

Something that is constantly mentioned on this side of the pond is that parents of college bound children are told not to get rid of their children's rooms because there is a 80% possibility that their children would return to those rooms after graduating because of lack of work opportunities for many, many professionals out there - *sorry, no link - just what I heard on the telly - so it must be true ;)

It's tough out there and the economic climate does not look promising.

Oh, and add to that, those professional sons and daughters that are returning to their childhood rooms, also are carrying with them a large college debt.

Nice way to start climbing that proverbial ladder. :dozey:

Something is definitely wrong with this picture - ergo, there is a problem that has to be solved.

Oh, and something else, many of the occupy protesters are those students and graduates that are living this reality and do not want to take it any more. They know they have the power to create change.

Occupy Dammit!!! :)

:s mokin:

Race - i hear your pain. But do you honestly think any of the people running for or currently in our government has the ability to make changes. Newt or Mitt ?? ha ha will just join the DC country club and line their pockets. Why is it that you must hit bottom before you can start back up. To put forth a good analogy is rebuilding this country with our government as it is would be more difficult that rebuilding the following

Daughter Crashes Dad's New Ferrari - YouTube

I hope this movement proves useful in creating positive results in respect to the economy.




______________________________
George Alarcon
[email:n1bqc2h0]georgesalarcon@yahoo.com[/email:n1bqc2h0]
http://www.cheapairfare.vg

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Originally Posted by Rollo

I don't suppose that you've been to Soweto have you? The people of Soweto earn on average just 17% of the wage as the people in the rest of Johannesburg; maybe the township of Kliptown means something to you?
Do you mean to suggest that the people of Soweto should expect that nothing should be done for them and they should do it themselves?
People born into places of poverty in many cases simply cannot afford things like education, electricity and whatnot and yet you expect them to merely fend for themselves?

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Yep!

Many others have done it. Why can't they?

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Yep!

Many others have done it. Why can't they?

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Why not go there for yourself, ask them and find out? Or do you know the answer already from the comfort of your chair?

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

Absolutely. Watch the headlines today. "Rudy slams Bono for populism, insists on shutting him up."

I find it interesting, though, that these people went all the way to the upper steps of the social ladder and now criticise the modern day vices and problems standing on piles of money.

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Does having money preclude people from commenting on social problems, or suddenly make them shiny happy people? I don't understand what point you are making. If everyone just sung about how rich they are as soon as they make it big their lyrics would be of no artistic merit.

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

I find it interesting, though, that these people went all the way to the upper steps of the social ladder and now criticise the modern day vices and problems standing on piles of money.

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Having a lot of money does not automatically propel one 'to the upper steps of the social ladder'.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Having a lot of money does not automatically propel one 'to the upper steps of the social ladder'.

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Your society is who you rub shoulders with. Check the pics from the Wiki article on Bono. Looks quite upscale to me.

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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

Does having money preclude people from commenting on social problems, or suddenly make them shiny happy people?

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I am talking about emotional connection, first of all. I believe an artist has to be able to emotionally relate to what he writes about, at least to a certain extent, to keep his integrity. Otherwise his art is just commercial crap with zero honesty. I don't quite see how somebody can live a posh life and still be on the same page emotionally with les miserables of this world.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Having a lot of money does not automatically propel one 'to the upper steps of the social ladder'.

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Yes you are correct Ben, if I were rich you could look up the word "Dirty old Man with many Latin Women" and you would see my picture. My yacht would be named "Cum Tank" Cohiba and Benziger Winery would deliver weekly.
I would finally play enough golf to shoot my age. And I would not have enough time to even piss on the social ladder.

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Originally Posted by race aficionado

I'm sure many of us in this forum can also talk about our professional/economical successes in life that have come to us by our hard work, responsibility, commitment, desire, etc.

Some of us are practicing our professions by having gone through the "higher education" route or by learning it "on the job".

Bottom line is that like many, many others out there that NOW want what we achieved and that are equally hard working, committed and responsible people, the fact is that for them, at this moment of time - there are LESS OPPORTUNITIES out there.

It's a fact.

Something that is constantly mentioned on this side of the pond is that parents of college bound children are told not to get rid of their children's rooms because there is a 80% possibility that their children would return to those rooms after graduating because of lack of work opportunities for many, many professionals out there - *sorry, no link - just what I heard on the telly - so it must be true ;)

It's tough out there and the economic climate does not look promising.

Oh, and add to that, those professional sons and daughters that are returning to their childhood rooms, also are carrying with them a large college debt.

Nice way to start climbing that proverbial ladder. :dozey:

Something is definitely wrong with this picture - ergo, there is a problem that has to be solved.

Oh, and something else, many of the occupy protesters are those students and graduates that are living this reality and do not want to take it any more. They know they have the power to create change.

Occupy Dammit!!! :)

:s mokin:

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Easy solution. People should stop having so many bloody kids!

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Why not go there for yourself, ask them and find out? Or do you know the answer already from the comfort of your chair?

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See post #1010

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Originally Posted by chuck34

So what do you do? Outlaw outsourcing of jobs? Then are you willing to pay $80-$100 for a pair of jeans?

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Funny thing is that's exactly what I pay for a pair of jeans! That only means that no matter where and how cheap the jeans are produced, we will always pay the price for them, it's just the profits of the jeans producing companies that feel the difference.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Inequality (see thread for evidence it exists and the effects it has) in society as a whole is not a problem?

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You know what's worst?
It's when someone from a poor family gets on top of the others and starts marching all over them just like it happened to him/her back in the day. :down:

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

Yes, because some of us got off our backsides and did something about it :)

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Let us know what should those poor African kids do when they have nothing to eat, who have zero chances to go to school, because there is no school where they live.
Equal chance my arse.

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

Absolutely. Watch the headlines today. "Rudy slams Bono for populism, insists on shutting him up."

I find it interesting, though, that these people went all the way to the upper steps of the social ladder and now criticise the modern day vices and problems standing on piles of money.

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So you are slamming them for standing up for a good cause? How dare they side with the poor?!
I wonder where do you get these ideas.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Or do you take the personal responsibility for your own situation, and get the education you need to get a job that is not so easily outsourced? And if you don't currently have the education, do you also take the responsibility to work menial jobs (fast food and what-not) to make it through?

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There are 31 million people currently unemployed and underemployed in the US. You'd think a nation would take responsibility for it's own people.
Of course that is what business people in the United States want though isn't it? A nation full of dolts who are barely smart enough to work in menial jobs and operate the wheels of industry but still stupid enough not to realise they're being screwed.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Or do you just protest?

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When you have a pathetic government which either can not or will not help its own citizenry, and a private sector which point blank refuses to, what other options are open?

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Originally Posted by ioan

Let us know what should those poor African kids do when they have nothing to eat, who have zero chances to go to school, because there is no school where they live.
Equal chance my arse.

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You know as well as I do that equal chance can only apply in a free society that embraces the free market.

Here is a list of the 50 poorest countries.
World's 50 Poorest Countries

They are all either totalitarian and/or Socialist governments or are trying to escape from under the yoke of those very same systems.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

There are 31 million people currently unemployed and underemployed in the US. You'd think a nation would take responsibility for it's own people.

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And what is the government suppose to do? It is not a government's job to provide jobs.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Of course that is what business people in the United States want though isn't it? A nation full of dolts who are barely smart enough to work in menial jobs and operate the wheels of industry but still stupid enough not to realise they're being screwed.

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If you believe that is what business wants then it is painfully obvious you have no clue whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

When you have a pathetic government which either can not or will not help its own citizenry, and a private sector which point blank refuses to, what other options are open?

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You can protest against a government you have a disagreement with but you have no right to protest a private enterprise unless it violates your right. Not giving you a job is not a violation of anyone's rights.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Let us know what should those poor African kids do when they have nothing to eat, who have zero chances to go to school, because there is no school where they live.
Equal chance my arse.

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:?: :(

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Originally Posted by ioan

Funny thing is that's exactly what I pay for a pair of jeans! That only means that no matter where and how cheap the jeans are produced, we will always pay the price for them, it's just the profits of the jeans producing companies that feel the difference.

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American retail trade is a whole different universe from European trade with a different price scale. The difference is, Yanks make money off turnover. They prefer to have a smaller margin of profit but sell more items and do that fast. The U.S. is a consumer's paradise. At the same time Euros have high taxes and stuff and need to keep every item in stock till some poor guy comes and buys it at a ridiculous price.

Last time I was in the U.S. I paid $20 for a pair of simple but incredibly good looking Wranglers. I also paid close to $40 for a fancier Levi's. Last time I bought a fancy Levi's in Europe I paid $100 and that was a discount from $200. Go figure.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

You can protest against a government you have a disagreement with but you have no right to protest a private enterprise unless it violates your right.

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Whatever happened to the idea of a free society :confused:

Here's a list of the most unequal countries:
The 39 Most Unequal Countries In The World

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Lady Thatcher, like Ronald Reagan, believed that if the rich got richer, everybody would benefit. Now many economists believe that inequality hinders growth."

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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...t-1329614.html

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Originally Posted by Roamy

Yes you are correct Ben, if I were rich you could look up the word "Dirty old Man with many Latin Women" and you would see my picture. My yacht would be named "Cum Tank" Cohiba and Benziger Winery would deliver weekly.
I would finally play enough golf to shoot my age. And I would not have enough time to even piss on the social ladder.

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Splendid.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

You can protest against a government you have a disagreement with but you have no right to protest a private enterprise unless it violates your right. Not giving you a job is not a violation of anyone's rights.

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You are in favour of freedom, as you never tire of telling us. Therefore, this statement renders you a hypocrite of extraordinary proportions.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

You know as well as I do that equal chance can only apply in a free society that embraces the free market.

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Yes, a free society — in which one has the right to protest against a private company. You know, that sort of free society, as opposed to the one with restrictions, which you have also advocated above. Still, you are someone who either committed an illegal act or lied about having done so, so maybe I shouldn't be surprised at such inconsistency.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Splendid.

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At least he is honest, which is more than 90% of people can say!

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

You are in favour of freedom, as you never tire of telling us. Therefore, this statement renders you a hypocrite of extraordinary proportions.

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I don't see how you get hypocrisy from Ant's post?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Yes, a free society — in which one has the right to protest against a private company. You know, that sort of free society, as opposed to the one with restrictions, which you have also advocated above. Still, you are someone who either committed an illegal act or lied about having done so, so maybe I shouldn't be surprised at such inconsistency.

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No one has the right to anything, ANYTHING AT ALL!

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

I don't see how you get hypocrisy from Ant's post?

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I don't see how you could see anything other. He on the one hand advocates unfettered freedom, and on the other feels that protesting against private companies is unacceptable. The two standpoints are deeply, inherently contradictory.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

No one has the right to anything, ANYTHING AT ALL!

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A ridiculous statement. And why SHOUT? It hardly adds weight or articulacy to your point of view.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I don't see how you could see anything other. He on the one hand advocates unfettered freedom, and on the other feels that protesting against private companies is unacceptable. The two standpoints are deeply, inherently contradictory.

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Yes, but he did clearly stated that you could not protest unless they have violated you as a consumer in some way. Not everyone has been violated!

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

A ridiculous statement. And why SHOUT? It hardly adds weight or articulacy to your point of view.

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Everything is earned, there is no "right" to anything at all in this life.

As for "shouting", apologies if you are offended by capitol letters :p :

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
- First Amendment to the US Constitution

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
- Article 19, The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Anyone can protest on anything they feel like; that includes protesting against private enterprises. At law, anthonyvop and 555-04Q2's assertion is false.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

Yes, but he did clearly stated that you could not protest unless they have violated you as a consumer in some way. Not everyone has been violated!

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Something doesn't have to affect you directly for you to recognise injustice, feel angered or be offended by it and so want to do something about it, including taking part in a protest.

The world would be a poorer place (and certainly not "free") if only those individuals who have been "violated" are permitted to protest against the "violation".