[WRC] News & rumours (part II)

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Originally Posted by Mirek

Another one in a growing row...

Here we had even a petition of crews against mandatory use of HANS (there were no lumbar vertebrae fractures before and than something like two dozens in last few years just in CZ) but as usually without any effect. If someone wants to use it why not but it shall not be mandatory.

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Really. Verey interesting.. I lobbied hard here in Fortress America™ to the corporation that runs one of the series... I said there was ample evidence that people are NOT constantly breaking their necks if one just looks at the popular crash videos from Sweden and Finland...but here it seemed everybody wanted to get HANS---i suspect from the same reason most Americans do everything they do: because they saw it on TV...

Would you have any links to cases in Czecho-land? Is it lumbar or lower back usually? (I have just in last 4 years had 4-5 operations directly related to pounding 35 years ago.... upper then lower spine, new knee, new intake ports in the nose)

I would like to link to cases of fractures...

I personally don't have exact statistics but sure they are available from our drivers association which is trying to make HANS only voluntarily.

It's always lumbar or lower thoratic vertebrae broken as it's in the S shape where the pressure is concentrated if the body is pushed down to the seat. But it didn't happen only here but You can count also Guy Wilks, Dennis Kuipers, Ilka Minor, Pieter Van Merksteijn, Dennis Giraudet and sure others. I think that in these cases it can hardly come to wrong seat, belts, HANS size etc. It doesn't happen only on village level.

I was at one such crash in Rally Kopná. It was a frontal crash into the tree with Clio R3 due to aquaplaning (very good car, originally works one). It wasn't such a big crash. Engine and gearbox were undamaged, just radiator and LF suspension broken. The driver was quite an older guy and not really sporty one but still I witnessed much bigger crashes where no-one got hurt...

I always thought in addition to the appearance of safety Rally America is beholden to insurance requirements that would require HANS. I've followed a lot of those discussions since the cost is pretty high for most US competitors.

Then again, this guy said it was a good thing he was wearing one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hh-T4ALk0Sc

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Originally Posted by dimviii

AUTOhebdo.fr | WRC-Fracture lombaire pour Giraudet

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Amazing that he get an injury not on a crash. Considering how many times Novikov has put the car upside down!

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Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

I lobbied hard here in Fortress America™ to the corporation that runs one of the series... I said there was ample evidence that people are NOT constantly breaking their necks if one just looks at the popular crash videos from Sweden and Finland...but here it seemed everybody wanted to get HANS---i suspect from the same reason most Americans do everything they do: because they saw it on TV...

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Likewise John, I have lobbied hard here against officialdom who impose the use of HANS in domestic competition despite over 40 years with no happenings in which the wearing of one would have positively affected the outcome. We've had a number of happenings though in which, had the occupants been wearing the gear, the outcome would likely have been much worse.
In our case it's not a case of competitors seeing it on TV but of regulators missunderstanding the nature and needs of our sport.

I think this is the jump (SS Urria, the big one) where Giraudet hurt his back: Neste Oil Rally Finland 2012 - YouTube

There must be better videos, but this one I found quickly.

Hello to everybody!
I am following this forum for a while but HANS thread forced me to register and write something about injuries caused on the big jumps landing.
I am a professional co driver and had serious back injury ( two vertebra broken, second and third and also broken ligaments on this position). Probably most of you will remember our crazy jumps from Rally Italia Sardegna 2008 on the SS Monte Lerno ( place where I am injured) and NORF 2007 on the SS Palsankyla where my driver had back and neck injuries but no serious like me in Italy ... Car was for that time top Clio R3 from Renault Sport, chassis number 009. I had lot off serious crashes during career before HANS device become mandatory and never had any injury, who knows, maybe I was lucky ...

Milos Komljenovic Italy 2008 Jump - YouTube

Neste Oil Rally -07. Milos Komljenovic - YouTube

Excuse me if I'm wrong but isn't HANS device stand for head and neck support with the purpose of the device to stop the head from whipping forward in a crash. What has this got to do with fractures of vertebrae from heavy landings? I thought it was designed to stop the head from whipping back and damaging the vertebrae in the neck and spinal cord, in a frontal accident?

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Originally Posted by leighton323

Excuse me if I'm wrong but isn't HANS device stand for head and neck support with the purpose of the device to stop the head from whipping forward in a crash. What has this got to do with fractures of vertebrae from heavy landings? I thought it was designed to stop the head from whipping back and damaging the vertebrae in the neck and spinal cord, in a frontal accident?

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yeah that is correct. There are other similar safety equipments as well. I don't know what it is called but i know that Ramona Karlsson use it instead of HANS.

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Originally Posted by BleAivano

yeah that is correct. There are other similar safety equipments as well. I don't know what it is called but i know that Ramona Karlsson use it instead of HANS.

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Technically the device used by Ramona Karlsson (also used by Partick Flodin and Evgeny Novikov this weekend in NORF) is still a HANS (Head And Neck Support). It's called a Hybrid. Hybrid | Facebook

About the injury supposedly caused by Hans devices, i always thought it would be the collarbone ones (which i believe are increasing a lot) when the car takes a front impact, due to the lower part of the HANS pressing on the shoulder when the head moves forward. At least i believe this is how it works as i've never had to test the efficiency of a HANS yet (and lets hope i wont have to :D )

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Originally Posted by leighton323

Excuse me if I'm wrong but isn't HANS device stand for head and neck support with the purpose of the device to stop the head from whipping forward in a crash. What has this got to do with fractures of vertebrae from heavy landings? I thought it was designed to stop the head from whipping back and damaging the vertebrae in the neck and spinal cord, in a frontal accident?

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Yes, You are right but If I understand it right the problem is that with the HANS bellow the seatbelts You make the upper body too stiff to absorb part of vertical load into its deformation. As a result more stress is transformed to the lumbar spinal area where the spine is curved in an S-shape and therefore critical in terms of buckling.

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Originally Posted by Mirek

Yes, You are right but If I understand it right the problem is that with the HANS bellow the seatbelts You make the upper body too stiff to absorb part of vertical load into its deformation. As a result more stress is transformed to the lumbar spinal area where the spine is curved in an S-shape and therefore critical in terms of buckling.

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Thanks for that explanation, it's good to learn something everyday (:

Breaking news! RedBull Media House set to become WRC promoter
https://p.twimg.com/Azw2PKnCUAAg2kQ.jpg

Good news to finally have a new promotor.
Bad luck if you are sponsored by another Energy Drink.

I think RedBull will do a great job!

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Originally Posted by Maui J.

Good news to finally have a new promotor.
Bad luck if you are sponsored by another Energy Drink.

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Red bull have a very good record of not caring if other energy drinks are involved. Look at X-Fighters. Half the riders there are sponsored by other energy drinks and sill invited to compete.

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...38526523_n.jpg by PlanetMarcus

I hopw all this is true and hopefully the issues with wrc will start being sorted out. How valid are the sources, anyone know?

How will this Red Bull deal affect drivers with Monster or other energy drink sponsors?

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Originally Posted by Mirek

Yes, You are right but If I understand it right the problem is that with the HANS bellow the seatbelts You make the upper body too stiff to absorb part of vertical load into its deformation. As a result more stress is transformed to the lumbar spinal area where the spine is curved in an S-shape and therefore critical in terms of buckling.

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I am not medical expert but lot of drivers has similar opinion. Dakar crews has petition against mandatory use of HANS few years ago ...

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Originally Posted by raybak

How will this Red Bull deal affect drivers with Monster or other energy drink sponsors?

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By all logic it won't affect them in any way because Red Bull is the promoter. It isn't an exclusive sponsorship deal.

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Originally Posted by paddocknews

Breaking news! RedBull Media House set to become WRC promoter
https://p.twimg.com/Azw2PKnCUAAg2kQ.jpg

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Awesome, I hope they do it well.

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Originally Posted by DonJippo

Lappi started his career in karting so he is used to driving on tarmac more than other Finns normally.

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Yes, one could even say that he is a beginner in rally but quite experienced on tarmac :) . He's career approach seems to go really well. Let's hope things go in line with his driving skills in the future and there is no injuries or other random things on his way.

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Originally Posted by Mirek

Yes, You are right but If I understand it right the problem is that with the HANS bellow the seatbelts You make the upper body too stiff to absorb part of vertical load into its deformation.

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Why people don't use belts, which have small duplicate belts for HANS on top of the main belts which have contact with the (co)driver? Those belts were displayed even in some WRC TV HANS introduction video (2007 if I remember right) where Mikko and Jarmo showed how to wear/use HANS...

There are same injuries with both types of belts.

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Originally Posted by Mirek

There are same injuries with both types of belts.

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Oh, okay. This was new info for me, thanks Mirek!

So then, only possibilty to achieve neck support without problems of HANS would be to connect helmet to the seat itself by straps...

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Originally Posted by paddocknews

Breaking news! RedBull Media House set to become WRC promoter
https://p.twimg.com/Azw2PKnCUAAg2kQ.jpg

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is Red bull going to continue with Citroen next year?

Red Bull set to be announced as new promoter of the World Rally Championship - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com

Am I right in thinking that as promoter, Red Bull will be responsible for the TV production as NOS was?

Red Bull's air racing coverage was some of the most beautiful footage I ever prepared for television. They sent it on HDCAM-SR tape, which is more expensive by a large margin than any other tape stock, normally only movies (and only some movies) get sent to TV/satellite networks on HD-SR. But when your cameras and coverage are so incredible I guess you want the best colour depth, data rate etc. when you deliver your finished programming as well (It's too bad our backwater country broadcast it with very limited data rate over satellite in the end, only I got to see it that way on a perfect calibrated 1080p pro monitor).

I'm thrilled about their involvement. If they do half of what they do for the air race shows WRC will have some very polished world-class programming.

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Originally Posted by tommeke_B

Something like this (http://img02.zerogrey.com/upload/spa...dium_00162.jpg) has been used in regional events for years. It doesn't look as fancy but it helps to support the neck.

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AFAIK it's a safety device designed for karting use. In karts seat's rear side is very short and therefore rear impact is really dangerous because the upper body (including the neck) could whipsplash rearwards.

In rallying that device would help if used the wrong way around (the bulky side in front) to stop head from whipsplashing forward (because seats are high enough to provide head support backwards). In the past, I've seen it being used like that in Finland, but it ended when ASN doctor warned competitors that it could lead to severe cervical spine and throat injuries as it has not been desinged to be used that way around...

Lets hope Red bull presents rallying as the sport it is and not like those extreme games of redneck/insest culture...

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Originally Posted by N.O.T

Lets hope Red bull presents rallying as the sport it is and not like those extreme games of redneck/insest culture...

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It's incest. Seriously, get a clue bro.

Where is Mirek?

Some Czech news are saying IRC and ERC will be joint together?!

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Originally Posted by Gherid_lacksGPS

It's incest. Seriously, get a clue bro.

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Thank you for the useful contribution... and lets hope red bull know what rallying is about.

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Originally Posted by Juha_Koo

AFAIK it's a safety device designed for karting use. In karts seat's rear side is very short and therefore rear impact is really dangerous because the upper body (including the neck) could whipsplash rearwards.

In rallying that device would help if used the wrong way around (the bulky side in front) to stop head from whipsplashing forward (because seats are high enough to provide head support backwards). In the past, I've seen it being used like that in Finland, but it ended when ASN doctor warned competitors that it could lead to severe cervical spine and throat injuries as it has not been desinged to be used that way around...

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My god. I think I am going to faint. Actual discusion about the actual issue..
All the so called discussion on HANS was, from the corporate organizer side like this: "What would our defense in a lawsuit be if in a courtroom we were found to have not been requiring the use of best practices?"

And it was stated exactly as such again and again.. Now I'm not too bright so when somebody repeats a question enough I stupidly think they're asking a question so I foolishly answered "law works on 'precedent', on what has been found previously to be legal, binding etc. You would have contacted the Federartions in other countries and asked them how many insurance payouts they have done for rally drivers and co-drivers who have broken their necks and died of that---and not massive internal injuries, but broken necks, and present the numbers of participants, number of years, and number of fatal neck breaks and let evidence speak"

I was not very popular..

The situation is even worse when one considers that the various "Federations" usually refer to "research" by SFI which i think is SFI Foundation, an organistion which makes standards and issues certifications whose members consist of: safety equipment manufacturers. Obviously a huge potential appearance of conflict of interest...

Which everybody pretends doesn't exist..

The Corporate masters asserted, and I quote "All major race series require HANS.." At the time, it turned out only FFA required HANS in A8 and N4 class, all others recommended...
I read piles of regs for federations all round the world, cut and pasted the sections in rulebooks, and highlighted "recommended. not required".

They did not like me.

My worries stem from what I saw in my sport, moto-cross, when between 1971 and 1974 we got much much better boots and stopped banging our ankles to hell.
And instead we all ripped the cartilage and ligaments to pieces in our knees.

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Originally Posted by clem126

Red Bull set to be announced as new promoter of the World Rally Championship - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com

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Good news!

Although to be brutally honest, the WRC is in a state where anything anyone does to it could be considered a step in the right direction.

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Originally Posted by N.O.T

Thank you for the useful contribution...

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Not sure I'll ever be able to match such insightful contribution as yours.

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Originally Posted by N.O.T

like those extreme games of redneck/insest culture...

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Anyway,

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Originally Posted by N.O.T

and lets hope red bull know what rallying is about.

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+ 1

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Originally Posted by xavier

Amazing that he get an injury not on a crash. Considering how many times Novikov has put the car upside down!

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Not always a big crash can result in an injury like this. If time and time after few mistakes or crashes or slight offs can distort parts of the body and then after a while one small thing can trigger a big break in the body if you know what I mean...

From George Donaldson:
"Just heard from DENIS Giraudet via several texts. His op a success. He Hopes to be out of hospital Monday. Like all these things we need to wait and see how the bone graft takes to be sure of the final result. Wishing him a speedy and successful recovery!"

Sounds serious. Respect for that he stayed to the end of the rally.

Evgeny Novikov`s co-driver Denis Giraudet will be replaced at ADAC Rally Deutschland by Nicolas Klinger. Denis will work as gravel crew co-driver.