I don't think you have to worry about that. There's going to be mass suicide, over this, over there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cart750hp
Jeff
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I don't think you have to worry about that. There's going to be mass suicide, over this, over there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cart750hp
Jeff
Fair question. I think the answer is simple. Positive energy attracts and negative energy repulses. The majority of fans who have had an interest in the sport want to see it whole again. They also want to see who wins when the best of the best are together in one race and in one series. The competitive environment is where value is created in sport and when there is positioning duplication or brand confusion it is very difficult to create identity differentiation and the stature that comes with it. The cars, drivers teams and events all become commodities. Unity will not change everything overnight but it will change the conversation from hopeless to hopeful for everyone but the die hard fanatics. The only way to attract new fans and new investment in the sport is to move past this ugly argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques
As for you not having an emotional position in this, I respectfully disagree. The tone and content of your posts and the fact you posts here suggests otherwise.
Okay, shoot me. I admit that I do have a deep emotional stake in the sport. This has been my life and I care deeply about what happens next. I loved what CART was and I love the Indy 500. Those two loves should not be mutually exclusive.
I will also admit I have little enthusiasm for The Amigos and fanatics who foolishly viewed them as saviors. It should be pointed out that I had the same lack of enthusiasm for the people on the other side who drove the split in the beginning. I have simply had enough of flim flam men.
I went over to the Crappies and said I came right over when I saw a mushroom cloud out of my window and wondered if the site blew up.
I'm sure my post was counted down, lol.
WOW! Is that a direct quote from Kriskin or Nostradomus. Since when can you see the future. To use some of that psycobabble that is so tredy, now, you are projecting, here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques
Jeff
Quote:
Originally Posted by cartpix
Jim Jones is preping a big punch bowl right about now...
Gary
Wasn't that Kool-Aid too.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
I'm a baaaad man - Nicholas Cage
Jeff
Barry they have softened a little lately on the count down thing ... the sure sign that cracks are forming in their Armour.Quote:
Originally Posted by bblocker68
I bet you're right.
Now what can we do to keep Kansas on the schedule??? Get in your car and start protesting!!!!
Kansas is fine on the proposed merged schedule. ISC couldn't change it because it's a doubleheader with the trucks and the truck schedule is set.
Besides, why would the France family want to accommodate open wheel? They had AOWR right where they wanted them, in chaos and completely subject to NASCAR.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Hot of the presses
George off to Japan in pursuit of unification
Quote:
George off to Japan in pursuit of unification
Motegi race date appears to be key to uniting IRL, Champ Car
By Curt Cavin
[email:2az957qt]curt.cavin@indystar.com[/email:2az957qt]
Indy Racing League founder Tony George is headed to Japan today for what could be a key step in ending a two-decade-old split of open-wheel racing in the U.S.
George is hoping to encourage officials at the Twin Ring Motegi circuit to move the IRL's April 19 race to another weekend in order for the league to include the Long Beach (Calif.) Grand Prix and other Champ Car World Series races in its 2008 IndyCar Series schedule.
The Long Beach race, which has been held annually by Champ Car since 1984, has a contract with its city to stage the season-opening race on April 20.
If Motegi officials agree to move their race, perhaps to the fall, the dominoes to a reconciliation could fall quickly.
George, who is being accompanied on the trip by IRL presidents Terry Angstadt and Brian Barnhart, plus former Honda executive Robert Clarke, is optimistic about a resolution. But he is mindful of other failed reunification efforts.
"It seems that every time we've been close some new obstacle gets thrown in the way," said George, who started the IRL in 1996 as an alternative to Champ Car.
George and Champ Car co-owner Kevin Kalkhoven spoke by phone on Friday, but Kalkhoven said the time he requested was merely fact-finding in nature in the wake of an Internet report insisting a deal had been reached.
"There's no deal, and no deal's been offered," Kalkhoven said.
"I sent Tony a text (message) to find out what is going on," he said.
Kalkhoven said the conversation was brief. George only informed Kalkhoven that he is bound for Japan.
"(Partner Gerald Forsythe) and I are enthusiastic to get this done; the question is, can we get it done?" Kalkhoven said. "We thought we were close before (in 2006), so we'll see."
Both sanctioning bodies are based in Indianapolis, but the IRL would be the leader of a unified series, and the equipment used would initially be the IRL's.
Kalkhoven said he and Forsythe accept the fact they won't have an ownership stake if a combined series materializes.
"As long as we both come out OK, whatever that is, we're OK," he said.
Kalkhoven and Forsythe own several companies that operate in open-wheel racing, including the promotion of existing Champ Car races, Cosworth engines and the Pi computer system used in the cars.
The latest round of talks began last fall when Champ Car officials met with George about making the switch to the IRL.
George offered to assist Champ Car's teams in acquiring cars and engines if they could prove viability to operate them for the full season.
Putting together a schedule and resolving existing contracts appears to be at the heart of the current round of discussions.
The IRL has agreements in place with 16 groups to stage races this season, and George wants to include as many of Champ Car's 14 events as makes sense. Currently, there are 10 weekends in which both series have races, including one in May during qualifications for the Indianapolis 500.
George noted the difficulty of pulling everything together, comparing it to failed discussions that occurred in 2004 when the assets of Champ Car's parent company (CART) went to U.S. Bankruptcy Court.
"That was in January, and it was too late in the year to make all these changes to the schedule," he said. "You just can't go changing all the dates around when you have contracts in place."
It is not clear how many of the 30 races scheduled by Champ Car and the IRL have signed contracts.
The IRL has been discussing the possibility of an international package of races after its regular season ends Sept. 7 at Chicagoland Speedway. Trips to Japan and a few of Champ Car's key events, such as Surfers Paradise in Australia and Mexico City, both coveted by the IRL, could be included.
Barnhart said George is aggressively working toward a resolution.
"I've never seen him work harder on this than he has in the past couple three weeks," he said.
News of George's trip to Motegi sparked another round of excitement in the open-wheel racing community.
"This has the potential to be the biggest, most important motor sports story of the year because it is so important to the fans," Texas Motor Speedway president Eddie Gossage said in a statement released by the track, which has hosted IRL races since 1997.
Kalkhoven asked that decision-makers be left alone to find common ground.
"We were very close to a deal a couple of years ago and everything got leaked," he said "Then instead of the key people working it out, everybody gets involved in the discussion.
"If people are trying to help unification, silence is the best thing."
Gofast, a lot of us have felt today that if indeed TG actually went "wheels up" on this trip, the consolidation was a done deal.
KK and GF do not "own" the Long Beach Grand Prix. They purchased the rights to it and those rights don't last forever. I think we should file the following under "what happens next":
Contract extension sought for Long Beach GP
On Tuesday the Long Beach, CA City Council will consider extending Long Beach's agreement with the Grand Prix Association that is set to end in 2010. The proposal calls for extending the agreement to 2015, with an optional extension to 2020 with council approval, according to a city report.
Michael Conway, the city's public works director, said that the city has traditionally offered the association 10-year extensions.
"But because there's so much development going on along the waterfront in downtown Long Beach, we were uncomfortable with a 10-year extension without being able to look at this in a shorter period of time," he said.
The Grand Prix Association had asked the city for the contract extension to get a jump on future races.
"We've had a great partnership with the city for the last 33 years and we are looking forward to extending that relationship into the future," Michaelian said. "And it's also very important for us as we have conversations with sponsors and with television and other entities, to be able to schedule out well into the future.
"And that's one of the reasons why we're talking to the city about extending our contract at this time, so that we would be in a position whereby we can commit the company and begin to formulate plans that extend beyond 2010," he said.
The new agreement also includes several other changes clarifying the type of race that can take place in Long Beach, allowing an extra half-day of free events, and requiring the Grand Prix to pay about $100,000 more to the city in expense reimbursements than it has in the past, the report says.
The races normally take place on a Friday, Saturday and Sunday. In recent years, a Thursday evening event has also been added along Pine Avenue.
The new agreement calls for future Thursday afternoon events offered free or at reduced prices, Conway said.
"That Thursday afternoon event is meant to be embracing of the entire city, not the downtown area, to allow school kids and others to come down and enjoy the race free of charge," he said.
The impacts of the Thursday event will be reviewed by the city and area businesses after 2009 to determine whether it will continue, the city report says.
According to the report, the new agreement also opens up the Grand Prix to Champ Car, Indy Racing League and other officially sanctioned racing series, but says that if the Grand Prix Association "fails to conduct an annual quality race" approved and certified by certain racing entities, the city can terminate the agreement.
The race would cost the association about $100,000 more this year under the agreement because of increased costs for permitting and administration fees, Conway said. The association would have to pay $519,558 to reimburse the city for the costs.
Long Beach also could make some extra money from future races under another new provision of the agreement that would give the city 15 percent of any sponsorship package that the city presents or refers to the Grand Prix Association.
That reminds me - I saw ConAir a few days back. Utterly terrible movie, and Cage had the worst accent ever!Quote:
Originally Posted by cartpix
I know Michael Conway, I'll call him Monday to see what he's heard about the "merger" and present status of Champ Car and if that in anyway affected the proposed lease termQuote:
Originally Posted by Andrewmcm
Gary, I can't believe it, but we absolutely agree again. What good would a "lame duck" series do?
Well, I never thought "what happens next" would include hell freezing over. This was recently posted on Autoracing1.com:
"IRL Champ Car merger talks heat up UPDATE #4 We are opening this rumor back up to 'strong' from 'false' despite the statement from Kalkhoven and Forsythe that they are planning for the Champ Car season to go forward in 2008. We spotted Derrick Walker being interviewed on Indianapolis TV and in the background was his new Dallara IRL car. If the latest rumors are to be believed, four Champ Car races will be added to the IRL schedule in 2008 because they do not conflict with IRL races - Long Beach (if Motegi can be moved), Edmonton (if moved by one week), Mexico City and Australia. If true this means there are going to be a lot of lawsuits thrown at Champ Car and OWRS for cancelling races that had signed contracts.
In addition, we wonder what it means for Panoz and for the Champ Car teams that have so much inventory invested in the Panoz and the Cosworth engines. More lawsuits. And what about Champ Car's signed contract with ABC and ESPN. Still more lawsuits. And what about the Atlantic series? What will become of that? We suspect that would be retained.
We are not lawyers, but the only way we see this coming down for 2008 is if OWRS files for bankruptcy (and soon) and they let everyone sue the bankrupt company. They probably won't get much.
Despite the Champ Car fans being thoroughly disappointed with this rumored outcome, the good news is that peace will finally be at hand and open wheel racing in this country can start the long process of healing and closure.
We support a final end to the silliness of the split, and so should all the fans. 2008 will be a transition year because it is happening in the 11th hour. The sure to be bitter Champ Car fans can look forward to 2009 and 2010 when more of the best parts of Champ Car (such as the races in Toronto and Road America, and the turbo engine, etc.) can be rolled into the Indy Racing League, hence making the reunited series even stronger. We suspect some of the weaker teams from both sides will fold and some of the weaker IRL races (such as Iowa, Watkins Glen, Sears Point, etc.) will be dropped in favor of some of the stronger Champ Car races that cannot make it on the 2008 schedule. Mark C."
Boy, is that a 180 in a short period of time.
This is a sure sign to me that The Champocolypse is upon us.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
That alone makes no sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaimWitz
Teams in other series regularly change equipment. F3 teams get a new chassis every year (I worked on a team that had 5 new chassis delivered in the course of a season once, all to replace ones that had been damaged).
Chip Ganassi got through about 10 Dallara chassis in one season, if I recall, not too long ago. Both Ganassi & Rahal also, for example, swapped from Panoz to Dallara's a couple of years back.
The World Series by Renault teams have just had to purchase the new (for 2009) car, as have GP2 teams.
Teams change equipment. Always have.
Teams change series. Always have.
To suggest that the teams have invested in Panoz chassis and therefore having to get a new chassis for a different formula would result in lawsuits is stupid.
???????
What you have here is a situation where Champ Car teams, many of whom don't have a lot of sponsorship, having just boaught new cars, now are faced with having to do that again, and having to get to know these cars in a short space of time. That's both expensive and time consuming. That's why I continue to say 2009 would be a better time for this "merger" to happen. Gives the sport time to promote itself, and teams time to court new sponsors for a reconstituted series.Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
Chaparral66, I think the reality is that there is simply no money to run the 2008 ChampCar season. The Amigos have obviously turned off the tap of dollars and lies so it will never happen. And why on earth would Tony George want to support a competitor that is a (twice) proven business loser? The consolidation plan that has apparently been offered includes low cost, or free cars and engines plus cash to ease the teams' move over to the Indy Car Series so that appears to me to be the last best option to make our sport whole again. It won't make everyone happy but it is better that it happens now rather than never. What the sport needs now is peace, unity and stability -- the sooner the better. In racing and in life, those who succeed make the best of the situations they encounter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaparral66
Has anyone seen Sanguin today? I wonder why he is not here defending ChampCar and the Amigos against all logic in this dire hour of OWRS history? Has he been influenced by Mark Cippolini's 180 on the subject of a 2008 unification?
Latest update from Robin Miller on Speed News:
TG and Robert Clarke are 2-3 hours from a meeting with Honda of Japan to move Motegi.
Robin also said no matter what KK has said in the last few days, when RM talked to him on Thursday KK said that he and Forsythe were all for TG running the series, but the big thing they needed was Long Beach.
Walker has an IRL car in his shop, he dosen't have a sponsor and Craig Gore owes him 1.5 million from last year.
Carl Haas has told his staff he is not sure what series they will run yet, and when Robin talked to Carl today he said he "would know in a couple of days" and may switch merger or not.
On KK saying the deal could collapse because of RM's story, RM remided him that in 2006 it was a cc owner that leaked the story and the story will not have any effect on the Honda people in Japan. The he says in about a 24 hours period said "Gerry and I are together" then "There is no deal", then " it is not going to happen", the " it is based on motegi", so KK must be confused.
For those of you in the Indy area, RM and Derrick Walker are scheduled to be on Dave Furst's half-hour sports show on Channel 6 at 11:30 p.m. Indy time tonight.
Here's hoping you give us the 411 on that chat, IC.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Okay, Miller said the meeting was going on at Motegi as they spoke, called it the biggest story in this kind of motorsport in a decade and that Indy would be much better because of it, he excoriated KK for saying the media was at fault in the merger talks by reporting it. He also thought that the IRL contingent that went to Motegi had several plans to present to resolve the issue and Honda could come out of it looking like heroes if everyone over there made music.
Walker was generally PC about things and said the CC people tried hard to make the series right and he'd run both series if he could find sponsorship. They showed B-roll of a Dallara in his shop that he said was loaned to him by Kent Baker and said he'd been working on an IRL program for some time. It was said to be the car that P.J. Jones drove at Indy last year.
Both seemed quite positive toward the melding of the series and felt it was going to happen now. Miller said initially when he talked to Paul Newman, Newman was thinking it was better for '09, but later seemed to agree that it'd be better now.
It is good for the Amigos that the deal is almost done with Tony George because the word filtering back from my sources in Europe is that one (or more) of the European dates is shaky and could come off the calendar. Since Assen seemed to be fairly successful crowd-wise, and since I hear that Jerez is strictly a track rental deal, that must mean it's Zolder. Champ Car recently replaced the promoter (and they're suing him, I hear!) and the word is the new guy wants out, having been unable to raise the sponsorship and being unsure about what Champ Car will be bringing. If true, this would mean both Assen and Jerez are stand-alone flyaways with no event to share the costs with. Which domino will fall next? It sounds like 2007 is beginning to happen all over again but this time there is no spin or bluster that can suspend disbelief. To quote Dr. Jack, "What happens next?"
I won't be surprised this time CC promoters are backing out. Although the talks in Japan will end up 2009, I have no idea how CC could go on for another season (2008). 12 schedules? 12 cars? Who's paying and who's interested? It's probably not a bad idea to just fold 2008 away so some CC teams can start moving and attend few IRL races. That by 2009, they should be competitive. Don't tell me, Atlantics could be the temporary replacement for IRL/CC for this year.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaimWitz
Bourdais, the last Champ Car champion.
When Sadam Hussein was being pulled out of his hole, he said "I am Sadam Hussein, President of Iraq and I want to negotiate..." With every day that passes, Kevin Kalkhoven sounds more and more like Sadam Hussein and Steve Johnson like Baghdad Bob: they are either absolutely clueless about their circumstances or they both have enormous amounts of chutzpah. I think it is the latter.
This RM item below on SpeedTV belongs in this very long thread. The question now really is: what happens next?
Champ Car Heading for Bankruptcy?
Written by: Robin Miller
02/12/2008 - 07:18 AM
Indianapolis, Ind.
George remains "optimistic" a deal can be struck for 2008.
Tony George was still optimistic about a plan to unify open wheel racing for 2008 following his trip to Japan to try and reschedule the race at Motegi to accommodate Long Beach.
But, by the time George returns to Indianapolis, there might only be one series standing anyway.
The word on the street late Monday was that Champ Car plans to file bankruptcy within the next 24-48 hours which, effectively, will end the 12-year war in open wheel.
Steve Johnson, president of Champ Car, was asked about the bankruptcy rumor on Monday evening and responded in an email: “I have not been informed and we have been hearing the bankruptcy rumor for 18 months.”
However, at least one definitive sign pointed to the end of a series that began as CART in 1979 and was re-titled Champ Car after Kevin Kalkhoven and Gerry Forsythe took it over in bankruptcy court in 2004.
Pat Caporali, hired a few weeks ago as CC’s new director of public relations, reported for her first day of work on Monday. But she was informed it might be a good idea to try and get her old position back with Chip Ganassi because there would be no work for her.
Other employees were reportedly told to cease working on 2008 projects and some began cleaning out their desks.
It’s not known whether a bankruptcy proceeding was part of the plan to have the Indy Racing League assume control of open wheel. George has proposed free cars, engines and $1.2 million to any and all CC teams able to fund themselves for a full season.
He also agreed to add Long Beach, Edmonton and Australia to the ‘08 schedule and possibly one more venue so it might be necessary for Champ Car to bankrupt in order for those tracks to strike new deals with George.
Kalkhoven and Forsythe promote the race at Long Beach, in addition to Toronto and Portland while Mike Lanigan, who co-owns cars with Paul Newman and Carl Haas, is the promoter at Houston and Cleveland. Forsythe also co-owns Mexico City.
But the repercussions could come from Laguna Seca, Elkhart Lake, St. Jovite, Canada, Belgium, Spain and The Netherlands. None of those tracks would have races in ‘08 in a unified series.
Besides those tracks and people employed at Champ Car, others figured to lose out in a bankruptcy would be outside contractors. Carl Haas has some $2 million worth of parts for the Panoz chassis, which will be made obsolete because the IRL uses Dallaras.
One contractor, Dan D. Jones & Associates, has already filed a law suit against Champ Car for non payment. After the new Panoz cars developed massive fuel leaks and re-fueling problems during the first three races of 2007, Jones was hired to overhaul and save the fuel systems—which he did.
But, according to the suit filed in Indianapolis superior court last week, Jones has never been paid one penny of the $300,000 he’s owed. He’s hired Jim Voyles to try and recoup the money.
As for George’s trip to the Far East, he and Honda’s Robert Clarke met with Motegi management to try and figure out an alternative date or some kind of plan to allow Long Beach to run April 18-20 (also Motegi’s date).
Kalkhoven has been adamant there will be no deal without Long Beach on its original date.
“I am optimistic but there are plenty of complications that could knock it off-line,” said George via email from Japan. “There are plenty of things to consider, Motegi and Long Beach are just part of it.
“Everyone expresses a desire to push to make it happen and that’s where the effort is being applied at the moment.”
Any news outlet in Indianapolis get any soundbites with Tony George when he got back from Japan?
Nope.....haven't heard any.
The item below from AR1 suggests to me that all reason has been lost is the panic and delusion filled place called ChampCar. Anything that OWRS is involved with has the potential to become used food and this flat stinks of it. The Amigos are the ones seeking relief via TG and other means from this Chernobyl of a business that they created. The promoters and most teams and ChampCar employees all know that they did not have "a reasonable chance of expecting employment in 2008" based upon the realities of 2007. Everyone else with common sense knows this too. It is also pretty dammed clear to me that the Amigos were all watching out for Number One, not their promoters, teams or employees. This has not been a business since the OWRS has owned it. It has been a money losing, tax write off ego hobby and any discovery would prove it. Nice try MarkC.
IRL and Honda may get pulled into Champ Car lawsuits Should Champ Car file for bankruptcy to facilitate a merger as the rumors suggest, one can expect the lawsuits to fly. But it's not just the promoters who could sue, but also CCWS teams (and their employees) who have to shutter because their CCWS subsidy ends. Team employees will be put out of work, when they had a reasonable expectation of employment for 2008.
In addition to CCWS being a defendant, the IRL and Honda could also both be defendants.
Some attorney would love to start a class action lawsuit on those affected (promoters, teams, employees), not to forget the small group of fans who bought airline tickets, booked rooms, requested and had approved vacation time for races cancelled and/or moved.
The plaintiffs' argument would be that if Tony George and Robert Clarke had not been involved with trying to create a unified series at such a late, late date for 2008 season, then CCWS would not have filed for bankruptcy prior to the 2008 season.
Effectively, it could be argued that Tony George and Robert Clarke (on behalf of the IRL and Honda) committed tortuous interference for the expressed benefit of their employers.
How concrete or tenuous the plaintiffs' argument would be argued in the court.
Stated differently, if Tony George had shutdown any discussions after Robin Miller's mid-January article, it is problematic whether CCWS would file bankruptcy.
Interestingly, the item from the rumors section of AR1 quoted in my post above was pulled shortly after I noticed it. Curious.
That doesn't hold any water. All of CC's deals for '08 are its own. If CC goes bankrupt, then CC answers for it. If CC has deals with people and can't run, CC answers for it. There isn't any tortious interference involved. The IRL and Honda aren't causing CC to go bankrupt. CC may cause CC to go bankrupt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Tell that to the lawyers wringing there hands with glee over the prospect of making some $$$$ over this matter. They will attempt to make a case for this with "...king George's" offer to the OWRS teams, no matter how carefully crafted or delivered that offer was. I am not saying they have a leg to stand on, because that has NEVER stopped a lawyer who smelled blood in the water.
Gary
That may well be true, as long as they can make some $$$$. But a lot of those any more are on contingency.............the GOOD lawyers get some bread up front.
Today is The Silence of the Scams. My sense is that the end is indeed near. Could what happens next finally be about to happen?
Funny...I have to say that the delayed effect of two wealthy guys realizing that they've lost a few hundred million since the last BK and likely have only a few options to gain some of the losses back...has set in! For KK, the notion of selling CCWS to TG for a profit is long gone...For GF, the idea of gaining back some of his losses from MPH...also long gone. The notion of putting more good money after bad has caused a rift larger than the Grand Canyon. KK's done...and for those of you that think he's got the same money as GF, he doesn't...not even close. The next few weeks will be very weird...no matter what fence you sit on.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaimWitz