Another example of the undue confidence you have in the private sector, if I may say so.Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck34
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Another example of the undue confidence you have in the private sector, if I may say so.Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck34
Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
That is because "Joe" decided to be inconsequential and replaceable. There are many others who worked hard and became valuable.
Those that succeed in life and business don't do things half=assed, expecting it to be handed to them then protest when things go bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
So at no time has a boss ever been at fault in such a situation, and sacked someone they shouldn't have?Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
You have an extremely narrow definition of what constitutes success. It seems solely to involve monetary income and, somehow, the fact that a successful person never protests.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
That particular cry is both true and a placebo cry from those who never had to find a job that paid the bills.Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck34
That people were foolish and spent more than they really should have on their income is pointless when the "other jobs" out there do not pay the bills, or due to their age they are not hired.
To simply say their are other jobs out there, is a Never Land reply by those who made enough that they can live off of their reserve for years. Most people cannot do that.
All government money comes from the private sector.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
How the U.S. government has handled the money they took from private civilians, should have no one having confidence in their ability to replace the private sector as the ones who drive the economy.
The long over-due attention being paid to Washington employees cronyism says all that needs to be said for Obama and his socialist dictates he wants to force on us.
Any comment is welcome on anything I post.Quote:
Originally Posted by race aficionado
I don't disagree with everyone paying their fair share. But it seems the majority of people think the fair share for the wealthy should continue to be higher and higher. This I don't agree with at all. Corporate tax in the US is one of the highest in the world, and raising it more will hurt the average person through job losses and increased prices. As it stands now IMO there are far too many people getting far too many tax breaks, and the Corporations take advantage of them no more than the next person. Currently the US tax system is based on a sliding scale and in most cases the more you make the higher the percentage you pay. But there are a great number of people paying zero tax, or getting assitance through the tax system. This doesn't bother me when they are people actually in need, especially in times like this that the economy and other factors have found honest hard working people struggling to pay their bills and get by. But far too often I've seen with my own eyes people getting such assistance while living a lifestyle as good as those working hard for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by race aficionado
I posted an example above of people getting housing assistance while living in a 1.2 million dollar home. Should you or I be paying more in taxes to help such people? For about two years we had people living in the house next to us and getting most of their rent paid by housing assitance. My wife and I put some $30,000 down on a home, both worked to pay our bills and get ahead, the people in the next house lived there for almost nothing... I might add while they cheated the system and worked under the table jobs to get that assistance.
There are also IMO far too many government benefits that take only income into account. A person can often have great assets yet get assistance. In my reality a persons total worth should be taken into consideration, not income alone. A few years back both myself and wife made some job changes, and when doing so essentially both took a good part of the summer off work. Had a chosen to do so, I could have easily applied for benefits and received them due to "being out of work", even though in reality it was a matter of choice and there was no financial concern.
I could go on for pages about government waste and abuse, as well as the many, many flaws in the tax system in this country.
But then again, the link and clips I posted recently showed the huge amounts of money some of those large companies gave to charities of their choice. Just the listed companies had over a billion dollars in contributions. And some of those companies gave a decent percentage of their profits as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by race aficionado
A business of any type exists to make profit, not to help others get ahead. Though some refuse to see it any business with employees is essentially exploiting the potential of those employees for profit. I know full well the company I work for makes a profit from my efforts. But having been in business myself for many years, I also know what they went through and what they risk to do so. So as long as they treat me fairly I will continue to contract to them.
Just another tidbit in the Occupy movement.
Occupy protests move to foreclosed homes - Yahoo! News
Wrong in so many ways I can't even count them. I'm not saying this is indicative of the Occupy protesters as a whole, but it reflects on the lack of organization of the entire movement.
And also a serious question for everyone participating in this thread. As many seemed to be concerned with the widening gap between the rich and poor, I'd like to know how many people here have actually ever started a legal business of any kind at all.
I have, legal and very successful. I'm stuffed if my janitor is going to earn the same or similar to what I do, after I took the risk of loans and bonding the house to get going and I have to worry about having to pay him every month. No f#cking way is that going to ever happen!Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
As for Occupy, a monkey with a banana stuck up his ar$e would make more sense than that lot :down:
No-one is arguing that all employees should be paid the same; just that the vast differences that can be seen are unjustifiable.Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
Really? We've seen that non-executive directors sit on each others salary committees and award each other nice big pay rises year on year, while giving those further down the food chain small rises if they're lucky. These are not wage awards related to performance or productivity.Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck34
Still, the argument goes that the "free market" ensures the survival of the fittest and the profits they generate filter down to benefit all, but everything points to that being an empty promise.
BBC News - Wage inequality 'getting worse' in leading economiesQuote:
"This study dispels the assumptions that the benefits of economic growth will automatically trickle down to the disadvantaged and that great inequality fosters social mobility. Without a comprehensive strategy for inclusive growth, inequality will continue to rise."
India's income inequality has doubled in 20 years - report - AlertNetQuote:
Inequality in earnings has doubled in India over the last two decades, making it one of the worst performers in terms of salary disparities from all the emerging economies.
Wage Inequality Is a Global ChallengeQuote:
Globalization yields unbalanced outcomes that manifest themselves in wage inequality and job vulnerability. Distribution of the benefits of globalization is anything but fair.
15 Facts About U.S. Income Inequality That Everyone Should Know (CHARTS)Quote:
What's certain is that the rich have emerged from the rubble of the last 30 years as indisputable winners. Since 1980, middle-class wages have largely stagnated and lower-class wages have declined, while the upper echelons of American society have seen a windfall.
The "free market" simply does not do what its' proponents say it does.
Bono, who's kinda successful protests all the time against something (or anything?). A bunch of millionaires called Metallica truly enjoys writing songs about how desperate it is living in this world. Then there's Wyclef Jean and many more.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
So you guys are telling me that if I went to Monster.com or a thousand other job sites out there that there will be zero job postings, in or out of my field. And that absolutely zero percent of those jobs will pay at a higher rate than what I currently have? Interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
So what do you do? Outlaw outsourcing of jobs? Then are you willing to pay $80-$100 for a pair of jeans?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
Or do you take the personal responsibility for your own situation, and get the education you need to get a job that is not so easily outsourced? And if you don't currently have the education, do you also take the responsibility to work menial jobs (fast food and what-not) to make it through? Or do you just protest?
How do you define what the gap should be? Who is in control of maintaining that gap? What enforcement mechanism(s) do they have?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Ah the old falicy that we live in a free market. Many of those companies that pay their boards too high actually went bankrupt and failed back in '08. But our Federal government, in it's infinite wisdom, decided to step in and bail them out. Thus removing any consequences that would have been a lesson to other companies/boards. At this point, why wouldn't boards just keep on voting themselves raise after raise? I mean come on, there's no downside to it, if we go bankrupt we'll just get a bailout.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Again, lots and lots of links on why this is so bad, and getting worse, oh my! But strangely no discussion of any solutions. Hmmmm.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
There is no solution required where there is no problem, hence the lack of solutions to a problem that does not actually exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck34
Nice attempt at diversion but earlier in this thread...Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck34
There is discussion of solutions but you appear to have a rather selective memory :pQuote:
Originally Posted by chuck34
Inequality (see thread for evidence it exists and the effects it has) in society as a whole is not a problem?Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
Yes, that is correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
. . . for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
There are many many more people in this planet and we (I included- not you)) do have a big problem that is being manifested more and more every day and therefore we (many, many of us, not you) are looking for solutions that will surely manifest themselves as we work together to figure them out.
No diversion on my part, nor selective memory. I was pointing out that you posted one thought about a solution, but now you're just back to your old tricks of putting up links to the problem instead of further fleshing out the solutions.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
I know I'm a bore to most of you. But to me b!tching about the problem without discussion of possible solutions and the possible consequences of said solutions is rather boring to me, and really accomplishes nothing.
So what is your proposed solution then? Protest to what end?Quote:
Originally Posted by race aficionado
race, the only "solution" to the so called "problem(s)" is for people to knuckle down and get things done for themselves. The only "problem" is the limitations that people put on themselves, the rest are either just lazy or stupid or both.Quote:
Originally Posted by race aficionado
These so called "problems" did exist for me many years ago. I decided they were not "problems" but just a temporary roadblock and found a way around them. I don't expect my neighbour to cut my lawn, I cut it myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by race aficionado
That's disappointing because it appears as if you're looking at things from the narrow perspective of your own situation which is, undoubtedly a successful one and credit to you for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
You appear to argue that everyone has the same chance of moving up the ladder and that is certainly the idea behind equality of opportunity but the fact is as income differences have widened, social mobility has slowed.
Put simply the opportunity for people to do as you've done is decreasing because of inequality in society.
Do you not see this as a problem because you've already climbed the ladder?
I keep hearing that. But what is physically stopping a poor person from moving up? There are plenty of examples of this happening. You repeatidly state that the occurances of people moving up is slowing, but you never explain what barriers there are now to social mobility. Back 50 years ago, the wealth gap was less, but a guy was able to become incredibly wealthy, after starting out relatively poor. What barriers have been put up since then? WHY does the ratio between the really poor and the really rich effect social mobility?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Correlation does not equal causation.
I have not climbed the ladder to any sort of height as 555, but I don't see that as some sort of problem to be solved. I have made choices in my life, and I am where I am. If I become unhappy with where I am I will do something to change it. Why must everything be someone else's fault?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Here's just one reason:Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck34
Evidence: Social Mobility | The Equality TrustQuote:
Greater inequalities of outcome seem to make it easier for rich parents to pass on their advantages.
I agree. You're happy, 555's happy. There is no problem from your own individual perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck34
By exactly the same token, all money that flows into corporations derives originally from the public, in one way or another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
What do you advocate? Banning them from doing so?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz
I would add that good songs about hedge funds and derivative trading are few in number. So are good songs from any of the artists you mention.
I can't seem to stress enough that, again, you seem not to have in you the ability to understand that not everyone wants to follow exactly your path; that those who protest are not all lazy by any means; and that in these little stories you tell about your own life, you are, I hate to tell you, far from exceptional, yet you bring them out as though they ought to be incredible revelations for those of us whose opinions are to the left of your own.Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
All money is a reflection of the goods and services being produced by an economy (or borrowed from someone else). Goods and services can be produced by either people working in government or the private sector.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
Quoted for truth:
Theoretically if what Mr Riebe said was true, then in a totally statist economy, nothing at all would have been produced at all. Are we therefore to take it that this magically appeared from nowhere?Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/29/43...6882f98d73.jpg
Many times Bosses have made bed decisions. But a Good employee would be snapped up quickly even in a down economyQuote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
We are discussing the economics and Jobs....Not some silly, altruistic, Ideal spewed forth by some one who wants to appear superior by appearing all Touchy feely.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
No one has said that.--Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck34
Let's deal with this in a more serious manner.
If some who lost a job has spent years or decades to pay off his house and finally has. You are saying-- well hells bells jim-ed, just sell that house and move where a job is available.
So jim-ed does that, gets the job, buys a new house, the job ends so now he no longer has a house he owns, is tens of thousands of dollars more in debt than he was and no longer has a job.
Your simplistic senario fails to take into account the realities of life.
This country is no longer what it was where any one could simply get a factory, hard labor or janitor job (which pay very well).
Housing costs have soared so high, even with the houses sitting empty, that a job at quick-food joint will only pay enough to-- maybe -- rent a cheap apartment and which means zero money going in the bank.
The old rules no longer apply.
By exactly the same token, all money that flows into corporations derives originally from the public, in one way or another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
Which comes from wages paid by corporations or small business, unless it is welfare money paid by the government which is taken from corporations and the general public.
All monies paid to government employees is taken from corporations or the publc via taxes.
The U.S. Government has zero money. All money comes from taxes.
As I said (call me mean, selfish, uncaring, stubborn, it does not bother me) I still don't see a "problem". People make what they want of themselves and they can't blame others for their situation. If you want something, it IS obtainable if you aim for it and stick to your guns. Protesting in a park will not get you up any ladder, it will merely put you 1 day further behind the others that ARE trying to improve their lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Yes, because some of us got off our backsides and did something about it :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
No BD, I am merely pointing out that if these people who are unhappy got off their ar$e$ they may actually achieve something for themselves. Set a goal and go get it. They may not become CEO's, top level managers, business owners, billionaires etc but they can improve their lives in a number of ways, not just with money or company positions, but with their general quality of life.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
I don't understand what is so hard to understand about getting things done for oneself instead of b!tch!ng about how it is someone else's fault :crazy:
Correct :up: And to make things worse, 99% of governments around the world are in debt up to their ears.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
Absolutely. Watch the headlines today. "Rudy slams Bono for populism, insists on shutting him up."Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
I find it interesting, though, that these people went all the way to the upper steps of the social ladder and now criticise the modern day vices and problems standing on piles of money.
In what sense is mention of the fact that success is not just defined by money silly or altruistic?Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyvop
:up:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe
I still think you're looking at this from a far too narrow, individual level. Those protesting in a park do want sometiing, and not just for themselves - greater equality, rather than increasing inequality. It is obtainable and they are trying to do something about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
Meanwhile, elsewhere people are still trying to "make what they want of themselves" but the evidence shows that increasing inequality makes it increasingly difficult for them to do so. That doesn't stop them trying but it does make it less and less likely they will succeed.
Evidence also shows that in the last 30yrs a smaller gap between rich and poor means a happier, healthier, and more successful population as a whole. I'm bemused why people are against closing this gap given the benefits for all of us.
I'm not against the gap closing (I'm all for everyone having money/being secure/happy etc) but I am against people expecting things to be done for them to get it instead of doing it themselves. The fact is there are people out there that refuse to put in the hard work and effort to do things for themselves yet they expect these things as some sort of "right" of theirs, so they publicly protest and interupt the rest of our lives in the HOPE that they get what they want. Poor form :down:Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
People need to start appreciating what they have and not what they don't have.
For me REAL success is raising my kids to be hard working men who respect their elders, respect that hard work, dedication and persistance is the key to success and to ensure my wife and I can retire happily later in life. Having money is just a bonus. You can't take money with you when you die, but you can keep your legacy when you are gone.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell