Wikileaks

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rollo

There wasn't a "threat". The attack on Pearl Harbour was made before any formal declaration of war was made by Japan and without threat. It was pretty well much an undeclared lightning strike.

---

The "threat" was clear already in 1895 when China was defeated by the Japanese.

It was clear the USA was building a Asia Empire when they moved from defeating the Spanish as colonial masters in the Philippines to murdering local Philippinos demonstrating for Democratic elections in only 3 weeks.
And then to a multi-years long war suppressing any resistance to US power---and killing 300,000 locals in order to "Pacify' the place....
This put USA on collision course with Japan.

It was clear to the whole world by 1905 with the Japanese victory over Russia.

USA was expanding across the Pacific, US Army officers stationed in Philippines were dispatched all over the East Asian theatre on "Holidays", photographing and noting and mapping.
The later famous US General Stillwell was one of those who was sent to China at the start of the Xinhai Revolution in 1912-13 which led to the founding of the Chinese Republic....it was clear who the US would eventually bumping heads with.

Then in '31 with the Japanese seizure of Northern China, more clearly in '37 with the outbreak of open warfare between China and Japan and endless "incidents" with Western forces--see Panay Incident.
The ever increasing aggression of Japan meant inevitable conflict with everybody, and the US was in the same area..

The "threat" was clear.
The Philippines garrison had been reinforced during 40-41, additional air elements moved there both fighter and bombers. It was considered Americas forward base..Look at a map of the area.
Then in 1940:
US stopped export of airplanes, parts, machine tools, and aviation gasoline,
which pissed the Japanese off.
Much of the US navy stationed at US West Coast bases were moved forward during '40 and early '41.
USA, UK, and NL engineered in '41 iron embargo, then a credit embargo and oil embargo--war was nearly enevitable then.

And further, US code breakers had broken Japanese Naval codes..

There was ample obvious warnings.

The victors write history, and nobody n America reads.
They watch TV so naturally the extent of their analysis is to paraphrase what the heard while watch TV.
Thus the average American's view that "It was an unprovoked SURPRISE ATTACK" implying there was no hints no previous 20 years of increasing friction.

hoooey

Also see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Plan_Orange
War Plan Orange (commonly known as Plan Orange or just Orange) refers to a series of United States Joint Army and Navy Board war plans for dealing with a possible war with Japan during the years between the First and Second World Wars. The plans were begun informally in 1919 and formally adopted by the Joint Army and Navy Board beginning in 1924.[1] Predating the Rainbow plans, which presumed the assistance of allies, Orange was predicated on the U.S. fighting Japan alone. It anticipated a withholding of supplies from the Philippines and other U.S. outposts in the Western Pacific (they were expected to hold out on their own), while the Pacific Fleet marshaled its strength at bases in California, and guarded against attacks on the Panama Canal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

The "threat" was clear already in 1895 when China was defeated by the Japanese.

It was clear the USA was building a Asia Empire when they moved from defeating the Spanish as colonial masters in the Philippines to murdering local Philippinos demonstrating for Democratic elections in only 3 weeks.
And then to a multi-years long war suppressing any resistance to US power---and killing 300,000 locals in order to "Pacify' the place....
This put USA on collision course with Japan.

It was clear to the whole world by 1905 with the Japanese victory over Russia.

USA was expanding across the Pacific, US Army officers stationed in Philippines were dispatched all over the East Asian theatre on "Holidays", photographing and noting and mapping.
The later famous US General Stillwell was one of those who was sent to China at the start of the Xinhai Revolution in 1912-13 which led to the founding of the Chinese Republic....it was clear who the US would eventually bumping heads with.

Then in '31 with the Japanese seizure of Northern China, more clearly in '37 with the outbreak of open warfare between China and Japan and endless "incidents" with Western forces--see Panay Incident.
The ever increasing aggression of Japan meant inevitable conflict with everybody, and the US was in the same area..

The "threat" was clear.
The Philippines garrison had been reinforced during 40-41, additional air elements moved there both fighter and bombers. It was considered Americas forward base..Look at a map of the area.
Then in 1940:
US stopped export of airplanes, parts, machine tools, and aviation gasoline,
which pissed the Japanese off.
Much of the US navy stationed at US West Coast bases were moved forward during '40 and early '41.
USA, UK, and NL engineered in '41 iron embargo, then a credit embargo and oil embargo--war was nearly enevitable then.

And further, US code breakers had broken Japanese Naval codes..

There was ample obvious warnings.

The victors write history, and nobody n America reads.
They watch TV so naturally the extent of their analysis is to paraphrase what the heard while watch TV.
Thus the average American's view that "It was an unprovoked SURPRISE ATTACK" implying there was no hints no previous 20 years of increasing friction.

hoooey

---

A few more details there though, both the US and Japanese navies were clearly wargaming scenarios where the opponent could only be the other for years. Japanese battleships were designed specifically to be more powerful than the largest ship that could conceivably pass through the Panama canal because they knew that that would be the largest any American ship could be.

Then there were continued tensions due to Japanese protests about the treatment of ethnic Japanese in states like California throughout the 20s and 30s and the American refusal to force the states to give Japanese equal rights.

And finally Cordell Hull refusing to carry on negotiations with Japan merely days before Pearl Harbour, insisting on a full withdrawal from both Indo-China and China or a continued oil embargo, both of which the Japanese were clearly not going to accept.

Pearl Harbour was years in the making and as you say anyone who followed the diplomatic shenanigans in the build up could see thats where things were going.

Back to the topic?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

Read your broad unqualified words---or do you have a version of Tourettes syndrome that you type brain-farts without control.

Here, let me quote you since youve forgotten:


By your own words you have said that those Americans who waited for a direct threat to react were fools deserving whatever misery which came their way...nearly 2400 dead, thousands more injured..

Or doesn't your blustering big talk apply to Americans?

Or---the most likely scenario---you're just running your mouth as usual and typing words unhindered by the thought process.

So which is it, Riebe?
Thoughtless blather, or hate for Americans who died because they didn't react to threats?

---

Do you have a brain?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Do you have a brain?

---

Obviously, do you?
Not too obvious.
Also no balls to address your own words.

What's the matter Riebe?

Ashamed how moronic your words are?

You should be ashamed and should really be ashamed at your cowardly attacks on me in a hopeless effort to avoid explaining why the Americans way back in '41 deserve whatever...

And the obvious question, not really a question but an application of YOUR WORD, bub, clearly you think all those who were murdered on 9/11 were:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by View Post
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe View Post
anyone that waits for a direct threat to react, is a fool deserving what ever misery comes the ones way.

---

Al Quaida said they were going to attack. repeatedly.

Now I think most of your right wing extremists are like your recent heroes Bush and Cheney, purely Chickenhawks, but you, you won't even defend your own statement...

Do you have any morals?

Here it is again:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by View Post
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe View Post
Those that make direct threats are half of the time, blowing smoke, anyone that waits for a direct threat to react, is a fool deserving what ever misery comes the ones way.

---

Do you have any sense of shame?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

Obviously, do you?
Not too obvious.
Also no balls to address your own words.

What's the matter Riebe?

Ashamed how moronic your words are?

You should be ashamed and should really be ashamed at your cowardly attacks on me in a hopeless effort to avoid explaining why the Americans way back in '41 deserve whatever...

And the obvious question, not really a question but an application of YOUR WORD, bub, clearly you think all those who were murdered on 9/11 were:



Al Quaida said they were going to attack. repeatedly.

Now I think most of your right wing extremists are like your recent heroes Bush and Cheney, purely Chickenhawks, but you, you won't even defend your own statement...

Do you have any morals?

Here it is again:



Do you have any sense of shame?

---

Do you have any sense period?

This is getting senseless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eki

This is getting senseless.

---

Badda-boom!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eki

This is getting senseless.

---

Senseless is a obnoxious lout making stupid comments and when the gross stupidity is gently pointed out to him, not even acknowledging his own statements and
acting as if he never wrote what he wrote.

But I do agree, any dialog with people like Reibe is by its very nature senseless.

His crowd cannot defend indefensible utterances, and according to themselves, can never do or say, or write anything wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cali

Back to the topic?

---

Sounds reasonable to me….

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dave B

Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...s-us-air-force

The USA appears to be inching towards internet censorship. They can no longer take the moral high ground when dealing with the Great Firewall of China, I guess.

---

:up: Which is a nice exhibition of frustration and desperation by the US.

Guess the vain Espionage Act resurrection, media smear campaign, and political grandstanding wasn’t enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by airshifter

Wikileaks has already done more than enough to discredit themselves...

---

…. And this would compensate for the disgrace of the US government?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hondo

… Assange and others like him have an axe to grind against certain powers that be, for grievances real or imagined. This is not being done with the sole altruistic purpose of bringing light to the world.

Assange is probably not a completely clean, upstanding citizen himself …… He'll get a couple of million off of book and movie deals, become a blown out of proportion cult hero like Che, and recede into obscurity.

All things considered, he's just another fad.

---

I hope he is another fad. One of many hopefully. To be replaced by others willing to expend their resources and make good of any opportunity to monitor governments, corporations and other forms of hierarchy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

... The real story of Wikileaks? After two or three weeks of agonizing over this BS, most of what I have read confirms that the Americans, while having other opinions behind closed doors that are different from the public positions, are still in many ways better....

---

As far as foreign ‘diplomacy' goes? Yeah, but that's about it. It sure isn’t about ‘national interests’, otherwise this country wouldn’t be so dysfunctional on so many fronts; particularly the social-economical elements.

Whether it’s Wikileaks, some other medium or a lone hacker - as long as they’re not disclosing how to make bombs or advocating violence - then I’m fine with it. I don’t care if it’s cable leaks from international affairs or behind the big-money scenes of conducting ‘business’. The more people know, the better off we are. Considering how decades of malfeasance ran this country into the ground to the point that just about everyone is affected in some way - it’s about time more people became aware of what’s going on.... and actually took some interests.

Wonders never cease... :dozey: