Mobile phones & tablets thread

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Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

Look, I fully acknowledge the fact that Apple had the stroke of genius to reinvent the tablet as they did, and also with the smartphone, initially. I'm also aware of their marketing genius which simplifies complex products for the mainstream consumer, which also translates into their easy to use OS, and this has really been their biggest strength. There is a reason why they have become one of the biggest companies in the world.

I infact happen to like the tech specs and build quality of their last two iPads and the iPhone 5, even though iOS 6 leaves a lot to be desired.

But like in case of the latest iPad mini, when they're selling a technically inferior product (in all areas, tech specs or OS) at a 60% premium, it's just too much. I know the market will decide and users will buy what they like, blah, blah and all that repetitive jargon, but Apple aren't solving cancer with their iOS, and it's not even the best mobile OS anymore. And especially after the epic maps failure, the only thing going for them now is their brand name and legacy. Asking such a huge premium based only on that, now that IMO is arrogance.

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I was going to reply to your older posts but since you've pretty much summarised it again here I'll respond to this one instead.

You say the only thing they have going for them is their brand name and legacy. I agree with that statement but I think you underestimate how powerful those two factors are.

Look at Ferrari for instance. A company started by a guy who viewed people who paid money to buy his cars as pieces of xxxx. A company that produced utter rubbish for nearly 40 years at an elevated price and somehow instead managed to convince punters that a supercar had to be unreliable, uncomfortable and difficult to drive to be worthy of being called one. A company who's response to criticism from guys who didn't buy into the dream was to dismiss or gag depending on how close they were.

Yet people still drool over the thought of getting one at a massively inflated price.

Thats the power of branding for you.

Likewise Apple has managed to get themselves viewed as a premium brand, the only one I can think of in consumer electronics. That on its own is worth more to the company than any iPad, iPhone or iAnythingElse. And thats why saying they're going to fail because their products aren't technically as good as their rivals is missing the point.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

Look at Ferrari for instance. A company started by a guy who viewed people who paid money to buy his cars as pieces of xxxx. A company that produced utter rubbish for nearly 40 years at an elevated price and somehow instead managed to convince punters that a supercar had to be unreliable, uncomfortable and difficult to drive to be worthy of being called one. A company who's response to criticism from guys who didn't buy into the dream was to dismiss or gag depending on how close they were.

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First off, I have never been so in love with luxury sportscars like the Ferraris, Lamborghinis and Aston Martins of the world. Sure, they are nice to look at, sound good, and would be crazy fast, but I'm not daydreaming about winning a lottery and owning one. I'd rather pay my way to a Formula 1 seat. :D

Second, you can't really compare Ferrari and Apple. It's comparing Apple with oranges, literally.

Ferrari make their product, the whole car from scratch, i.e. the chassis, bodywork, engine, interiors, electronics etc. is all designed and manufactured in-house at their factory.

Apple source a subset of PC hardware (same hardware used by competitors for their flagship devices as well) and mobile chips packaged with their own OS and design.

Ferrari have a history of competing in almost all forms of motorsports, mainly Formula 1 since 1950, and because of said history, have been able to maintain the marquee as a status symbol for the rich. Apple have no such pedigree, and even if they have, it can't be greater than Microsoft's. But they have used effective marketing tools to attract the mainstream consumer much better than their competitors.

(Having said that, when my wife saw the ad for the iPhone 5, she said "I can't believe people fall for this." )

Over the last decade or so, Ferrari have had one of the fastest and best handling production cars in the world, tested by all major car reviewers, and the performance validated in several championships they field their cars in. They have regularly done better around a track than similarly specced MUCH cheaper alternatives like the Corvette. Still, when people want cheap alternatives for drag racing, they'd rather go for a much cheaper Corvette or a Nissan GTR. Track performance though is a different story, and a Ferrari or a Porsche may be much better, and so warrant the extra money.

Apple computers and smartphones however, even if they do look good, are regularly beaten by PC competitors in benchmark testing all over the world. You can get a comparably or better specced PC for up to $1000 less on a regular basis. I believe this is the reason for which Apple get so much flack from tech enthusiasts.

They are good products with clean, solid build quality and a good OS, but IMO that's not good enough to warrant almost double the price. As a possible future forced customer, it pisses me off that I would have to overpay by that much.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

Yet people still drool over the thought of getting one at a massively inflated price.

Thats the power of branding for you.

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That's partly because of their F1 history, and then people like Jeremy Clarkson pretty much kissing Ferrari's backside on national TV and telling the whole world that the F40 is the best supercar in history. A LOT of people watch Top Gear.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

Likewise Apple has managed to get themselves viewed as a premium brand, the only one I can think of in consumer electronics. That on its own is worth more to the company than any iPad, iPhone or iAnythingElse. And thats why saying they're going to fail because their products aren't technically as good as their rivals is missing the point.

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That remains to be seen. :) Apple has already started to lose market share to major competitors like Samsung and Android, with the latter pretty much destroying iOS during the last quarter. As far as brands go, yes, Apple are still ahead, but that may change soon as well, because the market share of iPhone 5 is only slightly ahead of Galaxy S3, and I am pleasantly surprised because I expected the iPhone 5 to comfortably spank the S3 once it launched. That however hasn't happened.

The loss of Steve Jobs is showing in the mismanaged launch of the half-baked iOS 6 with the craptastic Maps. Even one of my friends, a self admitted Apple fan, said with a dejected face, "Apple are going down with the iPhone 5." While that's too drastic a statement and I don't believe it will ever happen, but Apple are not doing themselves any favors with the maps debacle.

In the computer world, yes, Apple's growth is visible, but the launch of Windows 8 may change that (even though Microsoft's marketing leaves a lot to be desired). PC still rules as far as overall sales are concerned. Apple may be selling more branded computers, but that's not taking into account the assembled PCs which still hold a large chunk of the PC market with millions of PC hardware bits sold every day. The number of "geeks" that I know, myself included, have NEVER bought a branded computer, choosing to build or assemble them ourselves.

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Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

Ferrari make their product, the whole car from scratch, i.e. the chassis, bodywork, engine, interiors, electronics etc. is all designed and manufactured in-house at their factory.

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???

No they don't. Substantial parts of the car especially things like the transmission, electronics and brakes (as well as a lot of smaller components) are bought in from suppliers. Some are supplied as complete subsystems to Ferrari.

Ferrari have adopted the Toyota Production System principle just as any other car maker has which involves delegating a lot of the production to outside suppliers. Over the last two decades they've overhauled their manufacturing system to be as lean and efficient as possible to maximise profitability and this means outsourcing.

Apple used to manufacture in-house too but in the hunt for profitability closed its US factories and outsourced to the Far East. This is elementary cost and risk cutting.

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Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

Apple have no such pedigree, and even if they have, it can't be greater than Microsoft's. But they have used effective marketing tools to attract the mainstream consumer much better than their competitors.

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Out of curiosity whats the computer equivalent of motorsports?

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Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

Over the last decade or so, Ferrari have had one of the fastest and best handling production cars in the world, tested by all major car reviewers, and the performance validated in several championships they field their cars in.

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Only over the last decade have their products been as good as the hype, but their premium reputation was cemented back in the '60s. Ferraris were poor cars to drive and own until the late 90s or so.

Gordon Murray is pretty blunt when he talks about what car he benchmarked when he designed the McLaren F1. He dismisses the Ferraris of the day as utter rubbish and goes on about how he used the Honda NSX instead. Ferrari did too which is why subsequent Ferraris became much more reliable and driveable.

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Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

Track performance though is a different story, and a Ferrari or a Porsche may be much better, and so warrant the extra money.

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Warrant the extra money over what? For track performance I'd rather have a Radical or a Ginetta which cost a fraction of a Ferrari. Porsches are cheaper too. You seem to have bought into the Ferrari brand myth ;)

But if you don't like the Ferrari analogy try BMW, Chanel, Panerai, Prada or Veuve Cliquot. Try any premium brand in fact.

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Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

That remains to be seen. :) Apple has already started to lose market share to major competitors like Samsung and Android, with the latter pretty much destroying iOS during the last quarter. As far as brands go, yes, Apple are still ahead, but that may change soon as well, because the market share of iPhone 5 is only slightly ahead of Galaxy S3, and I am pleasantly surprised because I expected the iPhone 5 to comfortably spank the S3 once it launched. That however hasn't happened.

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Why this obsession with market share? Its profitability that counts. Market share means nothing, in fact having a share thats too large means that your brand becomes ubiquitous which can harm the premium image. Thats why companies like Ferrari often restrict manufacturing numbers for certain models, to maintain exclusivity.

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Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

The loss of Steve Jobs is showing in the mismanaged launch of the half-baked iOS 6 with the craptastic Maps. Even one of my friends, a self admitted Apple fan, said with a dejected face, "Apple are going down with the iPhone 5." While that's too drastic a statement and I don't believe it will ever happen, but Apple are not doing themselves any favors with the maps debacle.

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Apple are going to make a mistake. They will at some point not spot a new trend and miss out significantly. Companies do that, Microsoft did, Sony did, its the way of the world so your friend may have got it wrong with the iPhone 5 but he's right in the long term. The question is not if but when.

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Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

In the computer world, yes, Apple's growth is visible, but the launch of Windows 8 may change that (even though Microsoft's marketing leaves a lot to be desired). PC still rules as far as overall sales are concerned. Apple may be selling more branded computers, but that's not taking into account the assembled PCs which still hold a large chunk of the PC market with millions of PC hardware bits sold every day. The number of "geeks" that I know, myself included, have NEVER bought a branded computer, choosing to build or assemble them ourselves.

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As I said before market share is irrelevant if you have good profitability.

Microsoft of course dominates the PC OS market but their profitability there is low and the market is shrinking as people start to use tablets in lieu of both laptops and desktops for certain functions. That is why they are desperate to crack the smartphone/tablet market. I wish them luck, in fact of the three I support Microsoft the most because what the market needs is a strong third player to break up the Apple/Google duopoly.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

???

No they don't. Substantial parts of the car especially things like the transmission, electronics and brakes (as well as a lot of smaller components) are bought in from suppliers. Some are supplied as complete subsystems to Ferrari.

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That's not what I saw recently in a Megafactories featurette on the Ferrari factory on the Discovery channel, with them showing the step-by-step manufacturing I believe of the 599. The engine, gearbox, electronics, brake calipers and even the leather upholstery, sewing and stamping was done in-house. May have been an old feature (didn't look though) and at this point you may have a better idea of what happens inside of a Ferrari factory. I know Ferrari has been outsourcing a lot lately.

Still, it's not like Ferrari is using a Corvette engine on their chassis with a carbon fiber body and Ferrari electronics and selling it at a premium. An Apple Macbook with the same Core i5 processor is at times up to $1000 more expensive than its competitor. And as a future possible customer, that is simply unacceptable. OS X is not gonna get me out of bed and make my breakfast for me.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

Out of curiosity whats the computer equivalent of motorsports?

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None, and that's why Apple has no rich history. Well, I don't know, maybe benchmark testing websites, where Apple has never won, like ever.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

Only over the last decade have their products been as good as the hype, but their premium reputation was cemented back in the '60s. Ferraris were poor cars to drive and own until the late 90s or so.

Gordon Murray is pretty blunt when he talks about what car he benchmarked when he designed the McLaren F1. He dismisses the Ferraris of the day as utter rubbish and goes on about how he used the Honda NSX instead. Ferrari did too which is why subsequent Ferraris became much more reliable and driveable.

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Like I said, I have never been a fan of luxury sportscars. Super cars, maybe yes, but not the Ferraris of the world. I really don't get the Ferrari hype. Yeah, so they've been in F1 since 1950, "Oh, look at us, and our red colored cars and the prancing horse." Whoop dee doo. In the same way, I don't really care about the brand attractiveness of Apple either.

While I do acknowledge the fact that the Final Cut Pro software made by Apple is in a league of its own, and a superior product, as a consumer, I shouldn't be forced to pay $1000 extra for it for comparable hardware, because the rest of it has no significance for me. Because I know that for that money I can get a much, much higher specced PC and get the same job done using Avid or Adobe Premiere and render the final video in half the time. But if I'm forced to work on FCP, it's really a pain in the neck to cough the ridiculous amount of extra money.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

Warrant the extra money over what? For track performance I'd rather have a Radical or a Ginetta which cost a fraction of a Ferrari. Porsches are cheaper too. You seem to have bought into the Ferrari brand myth ;)

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Not me, but a lot of rich folks would rather have a shiny red Ferrari recommended by Jeremy Clarkson in their driveway, than a rather clunky and ugly looking Radical. But then again, Ferrari with their resources and racing operations have made sure that Ferrari have a good showing in all international competitions they compete in. Apple however have not won a benchmark test since Eve took a bite of the forbidden fruit.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

Apple are going to make a mistake. They will at some point not spot a new trend and miss out significantly. Companies do that, Microsoft did, Sony did, its the way of the world so your friend may have got it wrong with the iPhone 5 but he's right in the long term. The question is not if but when.

As I said before market share is irrelevant if you have good profitability.

Microsoft of course dominates the PC OS market but their profitability there is low and the market is shrinking as people start to use tablets in lieu of both laptops and desktops for certain functions. That is why they are desperate to crack the smartphone/tablet market. I wish them luck, in fact of the three I support Microsoft the most because what the market needs is a strong third player to break up the Apple/Google duopoly.

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Agreed. :up: I've got to run now and enjoy a well deserved weekend after a long time. I hope we have kick-ass new products from all three firms and have healthy competition, so that in the end us as consumers win. Have a great one, and we may continue this later.

I think mobile phones / tablets and desktops are a completely different market. I wouldn't consider an Apple desktop or laptop as there's little to choose between Windows and OSX, and indeed Windows has many advantages and it runs on commodity hardware.

However the mobile market is a different one. Part of Apples master stroke with tables IMO wasn't inventing them, because they didn't, previous attempts were to shrink a desktop OS for use on a tablet. Apple decided to take a phone OS and grow it, which was a much more usuable solution.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Off topic but certain parts of the electronics systems inside the Ferrari road cars are manufactured in a place just outside Liverpool UK. Most car manufacturers source components from suppliers. I should imagine most smartphones also contain components manufactured from various different countries but its the design done in house. :)

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The screens from the iPad Mini are confirmed to come from Samsung.

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Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

(Having said that, when my wife saw the ad for the iPhone 5, she said "I can't believe people fall for this." )

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My favourite Apple advert at the moment is the one where they pretend they're the only ones clever enough to notice that earbuds need to be the shape of an ear - just like those 99p ones you've been able to get in the market for several years. Genius :D

I had a look at the iPad Mini today. Well more of a glance as the Apple shop was completely rammed.

Seems exactly the right size for a sitting on the sofa tablet with a nice looking quality screen too. Makes the full size iPad look big and unwieldy, but then I thought that anyway!

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Originally Posted by Mark

Seems exactly the right size for a sitting on the sofa tablet with a nice looking quality screen too. Makes the full size iPad look big and unwieldy, but then I thought that anyway!

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A colleague of mine bought the 7" Nexus just for that, browsing web on the couch. After one afternoon with a full size tablet doing the same few months ago , I might consider one of these smaller tablets myself. IMO 10" tablets aren't really well suited for sofa use because of the weight and size.

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Originally Posted by janneppi

A colleague of mine bought the 7" Nexus just for that, browsing web on the couch. After one afternoon with a full size tablet doing the same few months ago , I might consider one of these smaller tablets myself. IMO 10" tablets aren't really well suited for sofa use because of the weight and size.

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That is why Surface have a built in stand. ;)