thats not a solution, to complain each driver for their advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
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thats not a solution, to complain each driver for their advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
There is hell of a discussion about the current rules but how come nobody ever made so much noise about the old system used also in the national and some regional championships where it's up to the organizer to create the starting list? Even current WRC rules are more fair than that as they are strictly given with no place for personal preferences of the organization but such system has been used for decades with nobody so loudly complaining. It was a privilege to wear the No.1 even though it meant to sweep the road. Simply it always were that way that the best has had to prove he is worth the number he wears.
And as was said - there is also asphalt in the championship or events with standing dust. It's not like being first is always the worst what can happen to You. Also driving first means something from the audience recognition - it has always meant that the one who opens the rally is the one who everybody cheers for and looks forward to. It used to have a marketing meaning itself.
The QS continues in the ERC and there are no such issues/complaints...
The current WRC start order was purely brought in as an unofficial 'handicap' to give the lower placed drivers a better chance.
Plus it seems that Ogier isnt that bothered in terms of the Title.. he knows he will still win overall... its that he isnt able to win as many individual rallies and so improve his record in that respect...
They should just do a simple draw for d1 and 2 and reversed 15 on d3.
As far as I know every other form of motor sport has some sort of pre-race qualifying....
Like marathon rallies which are the closest to classic rallying in their fundamentals?
I personally dislike quali stage. It should be either championship order or rally standings. QS is like pulling the shortest straws.
Like it has been said over and over. Someone will always be disadvantaged. Be a man.
I agree with Franky. IMHO The most fair one is the 2014 one where championship order on day one and rally order on other days. I just saw in Twitter that Paddon also recommends this.
And nowadays radiocommunication isn´t an issue either. Makes it more proper to do championshiporder only D1.
One more thing, the dribbling with tyres. Organizer should decide which tyres shall be used, so no fuzzing about that either, should be best rules.
I think this hits the nail on the head. Basically you can talk about records before and after Loeb. Before if you won more than 3 rallies in a season you were hot stuff and the top drivers had around 25 wins. Loeb completely rewrote the record books. Now Ogier wants to emulate that and while he will win another title, he will not get 10 wins in a season so that's why he is complaining. All his career he has compared himself to Loeb and for him, so far, Loeb has been the only real rival.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundefaret
Now regardless of Ogier, road order rules have kept changing back and forth so much I can't even remember all of them. The one we have now initially seems the most unbalanced but in fact it makes for the best show. It disadvantages the championship leader on some rallies so potentially tightens the championship and it sets up day 3 for potential come-backs from first couple of drivers who have been disadvantaged by sweeping. The running order also makes sense to the fans on the first days and then creates a nice crescendo for the TV Power Stage.
So yeah that's how I see it, I think the system is not so bad for the WRC. It's only bad for Ogier beating Loeb's records. Maybe others like Meeke and Paddon will start to challenge him so he can have something else to focus on than Loeb.
In reality you will never have a perfect system, as others have pointed out the difference between dry gravel, wet gravel, dusty gravel, snowy tarmac, dry tarmac, wet tarmac is so wide no system will ever be "fair". But rally is not about "fair" it's about adapting to the conditions and extracting the best result you can, it's about unpredictable things and it's about being able to put together a full season and win the title.
video from a fantastic rally portugal 2016 enjoy https://youtu.be/dlRPtzat48A
When the rules won't be needed to "counter" VW and Ogier then with our without the rules Ogier and VW will not need to complain because others will be just as much affected. At the moment they still have some advantage but the rules bring them down among the others, that's why they are complaining more now than ever!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
You completely missed the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
Agree, even if it’s difficult to say they still have an advantage over the competition. Overall, it would be positive for WRC to have ‘14 rules back. The series doesn’t need to have this starting order issue as their main focus.Quote:
Originally Posted by seb_sh
Long and short of it its the rules. If vw and ogier are the only people complaining so be it. Most national and international rallys around the world work on a seeding plan best drivers and best cars on the road first and they still manage to win. Its only become a problem as the gap between ogier vw and the rest of the field has decreased. He can go after loebs titles all he wants but to me and im sure a lot of others he will never be classed as one of the greats due to his çonstant complaining if things arent going his way. There are a lot of drivers who have won less rallys, championships and held less records than ogier and theyl still be further up the list of greats for me than he ever will. Anyway lookin forward to sardinia where im sure we are going to see an angry frustrated ogier and this is when he seems most likely to make a mistake. Im just curious what the excuse will be
You contradict Yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by seb_sh
No I didn't. Having random winner to satisfy someone is nothing but a lottery.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
As I said You completely missed the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
ok, I missed the point. And.... are the people happy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Care to elaborate?Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
I can elaborate. You emphasize on numbers, but when Ogier makes them it is bad, when others are doing them it is good. I can't see the simple logic behind this.Quote:
Originally Posted by seb_sh
Somehow I've miss the Yaris on the jump...;)
What I don't get is how Capito thinks that the general public will know the difference between Meeke and Ogier as far as championship standing or how many rounds they are doing. They won't be looking in depth at the championship, just watching highlights on TV or reading articles in media/social media.
So unless the promoter promotes it, no one will know other than people who are serious fans. And the serious fans know the other side - the disadvantages Meeke has to contend with, such as an old car that is no longer being developed, being run by a team who aren't even focused on the WRC this year and of course the lack of seat time competing.
This definitely smacks of the same approach VW had with the emissions scandal, they didn't care about consequences to anyone else, they were only focused on their own sales. And in the WRC they don't seem to consider the wider impact they might have on the sport as others have alluded to. Very selfish really.
I saw a tweet, one of many basically saying the same thing; " the general public don't care, or know about WRC" so his point is irrelevant.
I personally would like a system that is the most fair and balanced with in the spirit of rallying, and for me I think the 2014 system is the solution, but would off course be interested in other views as well (qualifying etc I personally dont think is part of rallying.)
But if we take Ogier, and his starting order campaign, which I in many ways understand, his arguments are heavily biased, and very subjective, and the only basis is whats best for him, in his efforts to beat Loebs records.
He doesn't care about the sport, he doesn't care about the fans, and he doesnt even care about his own team members, which all is perfectly fine for an athlete, but means that the whole sport cant be governed from his arguments.
In preperations to Rally Argentina, I watched "a little" photage of the rally from 2015, both onboards and outbards, and though we know this already, there is no doubt about the fact that Ogier cuts to make life harder for the guys behind. Ok, thats also understandable, he is out to win. But should there be no end to ruthlessness on the way to winning? Should everything be allowed and accepted?
A question that the Volkswagen team should ask them self internally, is that if its wise in the long term to base their opinions on a person that is by cutting - and so throwing big rocks out on the road - trying to end the rally for the guy coming next, even if that is his own team mate.
From Ogiers perspective I have no problem understanding this, he is out to win, so he thinks mostly about him self. Ok. But Volkswagen is on a bigger mission, not only catering for Ogiers records, but by representing a brand, and its brands values.
Capitos statement seems based more on the fear of losing Ogier out of the team, or out of rallying as a whole, than a general strategy.
Ogiers weakest link as a driver is rough stages and events. He likes roads to be smooth, and he have said so many times. So he doesnt really care about starting position on tarmac, because he believes he can win from any starting position there, but it is the rough rallies that stand in his way.
I agree with those that say that we could revert to 2014 rules, or if somebody comes up with a better plan, but I am still surprised by Volkswagen and Capito in this matter. Effective in getting changes done it may be, but elegant it is not...
Rallying will never be fair
Not exactly. It's not bad that he wants to break records it's that he complains about rules all the time just with this in mind. I never said others doing records is good, or that Loeb's dominance was good. In fact he also complained sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
On the flipside I hope he gets opposition from Paddon and Meeke so that we have direct fights like in Tommi/Carlos/Colin times.
Tommi/Carlos/Colin/Richard times. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by seb_sh
To look at this from the other side... are people honestly that satisfied when someone beats Ogier when they have completely different road conditions ?
Were Paddon and Meeke's recent wins as creditable as Ogier's when he wins from the front ...
In rallying there's no such thing as equal road condition bcs it changes after every pass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Sent from my ONE E1003 using Tapatalk
so, he wanted to burn whole portugal down? :rolleyes:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report...-crash-actions
Lack of warnings very extraordinary.
I was reading the words of clerk of the course and I must say that I completely disagree with him. Main problem is that he is watching it only from rally perspective - stage is not blocked, nobody is hurt, so we can continue. But rallysport is also about symbiosis with nature and local people. Stages are done on public or private places and you must do maximum not to destroy them. His decision about not stopping stage in this situation was completely wrong...Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
From Emil Bergkvist Facebook:
"Mental utmaning i Portugal
Rallye de Portugal gick inte enligt planerna för Emil Bergkvist och Joakim Sjöberg. En rad händelser bortanför teamets kontroll kom i vägen för en framskjuten placering. Starten på torsdagen i teamets Citroën DS3 R5 driven av J-Motorsport gick bra och man var med bland de absolut snabbaste i WRC2-fältet. Efter ytterligare tre dagar med bra sträcktider varvade med problem som i många fall hör sporten till, så som en punktering, fick de två dock kasta in handduken på söndagen då man tvingades bryta mellan sista sträckan och slutmålet. Detta pga orsaker som fortfarande utreds.
”Vi ska inte påstå att vi är nöjda med helgen, men vi tar med oss många positiva erfarenheter trots hur helgen fortlöp. Vi satte en bra tid på torsdagen och när väl allt stämde på söndagen var vi snabbaste privatbil på Power Stage och kunde visa att vi mycket väl hänger med de snabbaste i klassen.” Emil Bergkvist fortsätter; ”Att vi sedan faktiskt har fått köra alla sträckor i rallyt och fått den erfarenheten är mycket värt för oss som team.”
Co-driver Joakim Sjöberg imponeras av sin närmaste kollegas ovilja att tappa modet. ”Emil visade hela helgen en fantastisk kämpaglöd och vägrade låta motgångar stå i vår väg. Trots att vi inte hade någon position att köra för på söndagen så fortsatte Emil att pressa, testa inställningar och köra med målet att sätta bra sträcktider. Det är inte lätt i det läget vi befann oss i då.”
Nästa planerade start för Emil och Joakim är första juli i Rally Poland."
Were they satisfied when someone beat Loeb or Makinen or Kankkunen or whoever who was in that moment sweeping?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
were Ogiers wins creditable when Loeb was cleaning the road and Ogier also wanted same status against a 7 times champion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
The best system is for the leader to clean the first day then run in reverse, the way rallies are nowadays is just around 60k maximum of sweeping, if you are a rally driver and not a dog you can overcome that easily.
agree and i give you the best photo of PortugalQuote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ci6NF9eUUAEQAQD.jpg
Why not do it like in the history - the best driver always first on the road? First day according to the actual championship standings and other days according to the results of actual rally? In the past it was working...Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
nice video including the small clip Kielder posted with Meeke.More drivers from same spot
https://youtu.be/N3A0F4rA_z0