Can you find me the section in the rules that gives the actions that a driver must take in order to stop the stage and call an ambulance ?? I doubt using a spectator as your negotiator with the organisers is in there but i would like to see it...
Printable View
Can you find me the section in the rules that gives the actions that a driver must take in order to stop the stage and call an ambulance ?? I doubt using a spectator as your negotiator with the organisers is in there but i would like to see it...
Police blocked road to ZS28 Fafe for more than 6km from about Marinhão.
And they let even a spastic paralysised kid walk all that way up to the stage!
Organizers should have a plan for handicapped fans I guess.
If this is true I think the spastic one here is not the kid.Quote:
Originally Posted by CWJ
It's not that hard to find it by yourself, but I have a good day so here you go:Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
And they are claiming that they showed the red SOS sign immediately when Bertelli started to feel sick and dizzy. The spectator you are arguing so fiercely about was a paramedic who was just helping there. The co-driver called the Chief Medical Officer as well. So according to FWRT incident report they did everything by the rules and had been refused an ambulance for over three hours.Quote:
40.2.2
In the case of an accident where urgent medical attention is required, when possible the red
“SOS” sign should be immediately displayed to the following cars and to any helicopter attempting to
assist.
which of the following don't you understand kid ??? and which part of the following did that nobody rich kid do ???
"the red “SOS” sign should be immediately displayed to the following cars and to any helicopter attempting to
assist."
do you see any
"call the medical officer and use a nobody spectator CLAIMING to be a doctor as your negotiator"" in the rules ??????
as i said if they showed the sos sign then 30+ drivers, after that nobody italian boy, are blind...
It's pointless debate. It doesn't matter how the crew asks for medical assistance. The point is they asked for medical assistance and that was refused by chief medical officer over a phone. That's unacceptable as it is impossible to determine the medical state of any person via phone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mariusz
I can speak how it is here as I was several times personally involved (even though I was just a spectator). In any event from local rallysprint to ERC Barum rally the HQ never refuse to send medical assistance. I would like to repeat the word never as the procedure is clear - in case of such request there are no questions, stage is topped and ambulance starts immediately after previous competitive car. The life and health of the affected person is much more important than smooth run of the stage. In case there is a warning about a crash from the G-sensor at the HQ, the HQ calls the crew to check the situation. When the crew says that everything is allright but the HQ knows it was a crash of bigger magnitude the HQ continue to periodically check if everything is ok.
For example I was personally last year at the crash of Odložilík in Barum rally. His co-driver hit the rollcage by his head and felt dizzy and sick which is basically same situation as here with Bertelli. The HQ sent the ambulance immediately after receiving the information that he feels sick. They didn't even ask whether the ambulance is needed. It's common sense as nobody of us there including the crew had a CAT scan device with him to exclude internal injury. That's why the procedure (at least here) is to ask no useless questions but act.
No it doesn't work like that...
the rules state the steps if you want assistance...
the bulletin that kid published said that the co-driver called the medical officer and he decided that the boy was alright (and the result from the hospital proved the medical officer did a good call)
if Bertelli wanted the stage stopped he had every right to do so by showing the SOS sign...
This is the WORLD RALLY CHAMPIONSHIP, car manufacturers spend millions to be in it and every driver from the champion to the last nobosy HAS EXACTLY THE SAME RESPONSIBILITIES TOWARDS the organisers.... if Bertelli wants special treatment he can become a tailor in his mommys shop...
And that is why Portugal has a WRC round and Czech republic doesn't...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Dude, concentrate now, because I won't be repeating this. You show the SOS sign when you think you need urgent medical attention. I doesn't have to be immediately after an accident as in this case Bertelli started to feel sick 20 minutes later and you can flip the sign from OK to SOS. The rules also say 'when possible' so the OK/SOS sign is not the only way you can ask for urgent medical help as it can happen that the SOS sign could not be recoverable from a crashed car. And forget the spectator although the rules don't prohibit anybody from calling and reporting crew's medical conditions.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
lets concentrate then... simple sentences.
- Did bertellis co-driver showed the SOS to the following cars ?? NO... or the drivers did not pay attention (which i find a bit far fetched).
- Does anywhere in the rulebook mention that if you want to stop the stage to call the medical officer ?? if it does, then please post it here and everything i said are absolutely wrong and i will apologise.
- Why did bertelli or his co-driver did not show the SOS sign to the following cars ???
- Why did bertelli asked for advice from the medical officer and not just call him and say "I feel i might die from brain hemorrhage" send someone.... the bulletin says he asked for advice... well the medical officer gave the advice to go F*** himself and it proved he was right...
- Does anywhere in the bulletin say that the SOS sign was not recoverable so he could not show it ???
- Does the bulletin say that his co-driver was aslo hurt and he could not show the SOS to the following cars ????
and to end this ridiculous nonsense.. IT WAS THE SIMPLEST THING IN THE WORLD FOR BERTELLI OR HIS CO-DRIVER TO HOLD THE FREAKING SOS SIGN TO THE FOLLOWING CAR AND GET THE REQUESTED AMBULANCE AS STATED IN THE RULEBOOK AND NONE WOLD HAVE SAID ANYTHING OR BLAME BERTELLI FOR DOING SO....
Go by the rules or go home...
According to an article in Motorsport Monday, Al-Attiyah did a back-to-back test before Portugal with Michelin, Pirelli and DMack tyres. Apparently both the Pirellis and DMacks were 'significantly quicker' than the Michelin.
Maybe Michelin have become a little complacent as all the works WRC teams use their tyres?
I guess WRC teams get different tyres from Michelin than WRC2 teams but maybe I'm wrong.
hard to believe that dmacks are better from michelins.Quote:
Originally Posted by RS
The test stage was only 5km and DMack brought their soft compound so maybe they were faster but last less well.Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
Regarding Mirek's query about Michelin bringing different tyres for WRC2 crews, apparently not - and lighter construction of Pirelli tyres suits the lower powered cars in WRC2 better.
From what I heard about Pirelli's softness their hard gravel compound is like in the middle between Michelin's softs and hards.
Michelin is so hard that it only works nicely under a WRC car and it doesent get warm enough to work under WRC2 cars because they are less powerful. Pirelli is much softer and works better under a WRC2 car but its easier to get puncutures with pirelli. When the weather is really warm, pirelli wears off quite quickly. Both tires have pluses and minuses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mariusz
Once again N.O.T, you demonstrate a complete lack of knowledge and understanding of the sport you so randomly choose to comment about.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
You have outlined the universal procedure for a competitor to seek assistance from those following on the stage. This procedure is there ostensibly for when an incident occurs in a remote area and the competitors understand their obligations.
Not everything that occurs on an event, or that a competitor will do, or should do, is written in rules which you can access.
In supporting documentation there will be locations of checkpoints, radio points, marshal points and those manned with medics. There will be emergency contact numbers in order that a competitor can talk directly with HQ should the need and opportunity arise. And it would be most unusual on any event, regardless of status, for the organization not to prefer direct communication as it is more accurate and more speedy. And this will no doubt have been conveyed to all competitors.
This car came to grief in a spectator area where presumably there was a level of assistance. They weren't initially concerned about their wellbeing so they activated the 'OK' and joined the spectators. When it was apparent that the driver was possibly concussed, or worse, they activated the SOS and talked directly with the Chief Medical Officer.
This was ABSOLUTELY the correct thing to do, and avoided the need for them to stop the rally unnecessarily. That call should have come from HQ.
It doesn't matter the status of the event or how many millions are being spent. When a life is at stake swift action is called for.
I thought you were a medical researcher of some description. One would have thought anyone so engaged would know that when head trauma is suspected one does not recommend an Aspirin and 'put the feet up'.
again useless blah blah...
bertelli asked the advice of the medical officer... the medical officer told him he was fine and he was right...
If bertelli wanted the stage stopped because he considered the advice wrong he could just use the SOS sign and stop the stage.
The rulebook is there for a reason if you cannot follow it you are in the wrong sport and a danger to yourself and others.
But how hard is it to make a combination by also stopping next car according to rules? How would they have done if they where on a remote place? Just called the Chief Medical Officer or stopped next competitor?Quote:
Originally Posted by sollitt
Why do You guys still repeat that it's not according to the rules to speak directly with HQ. It's perfectly allowed to do so and it's completely irrelevant how the crew contacted the HQ when a working contact was established.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
Seriously it's like lawyers speaking loads of bullshit to cover up a a very simple situation. The thing is clear. There was an emergency request from the crew and the HQ refused to send an ambulance.
Is Bertelli a pampered rich guy with no place in WRC? Yes
Has Bertelli followed the rules perfectly? Let's say he doesn't...
Does he deserve to die for that?
I don't think so.
Refusing an ambulance requested not only by him but from a paramedic after a stupid diagnosis via phone is just wrong, no matter the rules. You stop the stage and make the ambulance go.
Then you ask Bertelli loads of money cause he didnt follow the rules, he has enough money to pay it. You become richer and show your rally is a safe rally. It's a win win situation.
What criteria do you use to say Bertelli has no place in WRC?Quote:
Originally Posted by AL14
http://uk.rallydeportugal.pt/content...&eid=1200&bl=1
... So the only thing that was damaged is his ego.
because obviously there was no need for one... if bertelli disagreed with what a MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL told him he could have stopped the stage himself.... he did not do it, so everything is ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommeke_B
simple and to the point... no need for an ambulance, no problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJW
driving skills.. too many crashes, and too slow.
I would love to know the protocol used by the doctor who was consulted to know that the condition of a person who is involved in a car accident in competition or daily basis to determine that Bertelli's symptoms was for
a) No eating
b) not having slept
c) Possible hyperglycemia
d) Martinis hungover from yesterday party
e) All of the above
Or maybe they have a crystal ball in true gypsy style and guessed what was confirmed in the hospital
In addition Bernacchini neither Bertelli they claimed in his letter that the SS stopped, asked medical care were denied, and this can be reached by air
still the stage must stop.... you cannot run the rally with the medical helicopter occupied in case it is needed for another competitor.Quote:
Originally Posted by rayh_mx
How many helicopters were in the HQ of Rally Portugal? How do you know that was only 1?Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
you cannot run the rally while the medical helicopter is occupied... simple as that no matter if you have 1 or 100 helicopters.Quote:
Originally Posted by rayh_mx
But he has a lot of money. It pays to stayQuote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Something we agree. The stage had to be canceled and attend Bertelli, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
What percentage of responsibility you give to the crew and how much you give to the organization of the rally?
NOT answered right. He casually won a wrc2 event last year and thought he could be among the top of the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by MJW
I really don't like this kind of drivers. When they drive in production cup or WRC2 they choose everytime the most far away events 'cause they know there will be less competition (not everyone has a mom whose surname is Prada, and can't afford that costs).
Then when they achieve something, like Bertelli in Sardinia last year (winning a event where his main competitors crashed, otherwise he would have been away from the lead as always), they start to think they are worth dont-know-what.
By the way, if he wants to drive in WRC he is free to do it. We have more WRC cars, no problem. But let me say he has no place.
Place in the championship yes, he has, because it pays.
That we do not like to be there, it's another thing
So if you won €100M on the lottery you wouldnt drive a WRC car?Quote:
Originally Posted by AL14
The fact is the motorsport history has been full of monied persons indulging in hobbies who pay for a service, from M-Sport, PH Citroen etc.
Bertelli's brother does Americas Cup yachting, they pay, its the way of the world. If Lorenzo wasnt in F10 WRT Malcolm wouldnt give that car to a young talented driver with no money. I cant understand why keyboard warriors are against pay drivers. You clearly havent needed to make a living from motorsport.
Van Merksteins, Kuipes, Bertelli, Rauntenbach have never claimed to be challenging Loeb, Ogier etc. they are in a fortunate enough position to do what they want to.
Don't call me keyboard warrior. I respect your opinion, please don't categorize me.Quote:
Originally Posted by MJW
As I said I have no problem if he drives a WRC car, it's just that he is totally outside the level of the champioship, totally. For me he has no place, or if you want he has nothing to do with WRC. Unlike his brother that nearly won the america's cup twice.
the fact that he does not belong in the sport is different from the fact he is allowed in the sport... of course he is allowed, but he does not belong.
That team is refreshingly different. It puts money and brings attention to the sport, scored top 10 stage times and will soon reach top 10 results in the WRC. So it simply belongs to the WRC. Same way Prokop started and belongs to the WRC.