The future of the Euro and EU.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

I think tomorrow may show up some disunity between member states in the Eurozone and chasms between other members of the EU. For a start, there are 27 members and not just 17 but lets look at just the Eurozone countries shall we.

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Yep it showed, Judas has a new name now, it's UK.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

But he has achieved precisely nothing, though.

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That's good enough for Knockie.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

The problem is, and its ironic for someone who talks endlessly about the big society, that Cameron and previous British PM's have no idea of Europe as a community. They merely approach it in terms of what it can do for Britain rather than in terms of working for a common goal which is the German ideology. Worse, they try to stick their oar into things when the rest of Europe decide to leave Britain on the sidelines and attempt anything. Britain has a reputation for not being constructive but obstructive which is well deserved.

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Well said.
Everyone was expecting Germany to be the ones saying no, it turned out it's Germany's critics who failed the rest.

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Originally Posted by donKey jote

when there's a will, there's a way... constitutions have always been ammended when they were found to be lacking or outdated.
From what I've seen, the proposed agreement is so watered down I can't see how it can be against any constitution anyway.

Well overdue for a new start methinks...

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Exactly. A change is needed, a serious one. Maybe this time they will make it better.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

I understand your reasoning but the bottom line is Greece and other Southern countries broke the rules of the monetary union and we didn't, our economy is fine and triple A-rated. You'd feel a bit angry and touchy about losing your veto when it comes to spending your money to help those who didn't care about the rules.

Anyway whatever happens, countries must stick to the rules of the monetary union even if they have a warm climate and a tradition of doing things half-well.

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That's a rather one-sided and very shortsighted view, not to talk about discriminative.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

Greece broke every rule in the book, sure.

Portugal and Spain though stuck to the rules of the monetary union quite closely, more than France and Germany did so stereotyping those who live in warm climes does nothing to help understand or alleviate the situation.

BTW I hope Bulgaria and Romania have their entry into the Eurozone delayed or cancelled, they make Greece look like Switzerland. Will the entry criteria be changed?

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You condemn someone for stereotyping and then do worse?!
You can not cancel the entry into the EUROzone for anyone who meets the criteria, which are fine as long as they are enforced.
If you're not in the UK I suggest you move there, you'll feel at home there.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Well Cameron has given us the 'bad guy' label now, great. I hope fellow Europeans will be sensible enough not to stereotype us as a nation as a result however.

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With Knockie and Wilko doing their best to support Cameron's views, not sure what your chances are.

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Originally Posted by ioan

You can not cancel the entry into the EUROzone for anyone who meets the criteria, which are fine as long as they are enforced.

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That is a pity indeed.

You're having kittens about how unfair it is that Germany is threatened by a credit rating downgrade from AAA to AA+ by S and P. Do you know what Romania's credit rating is?

It was a mistake to let Greece in and it will be a mistake to let in other weak poorly run states that may endanger the Euro in the future. Romania and Bulgaria are as corrupt as Greece and I do not trust that their book aren't cooked to enter the Euro just as the Greeks did.

As with all of these things, follow the money.

In his address to the Commons (in which Clegg was noticeably absent), Cameron said that the reasons for Britain staying out of the agreement was to protect the City of London which accounts for 10% of tax revenues. I'm going to have to check Hansard when it's published to see the exact words but it's still telling.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Well Cameron has given us the 'bad guy' label now, great. I hope fellow Europeans will be sensible enough not to stereotype us as a nation as a result however.

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What Europeans think of British people is largely irrelevant, it's what trading partners do. Sarkozy probably said it best:

"Clearly there are now two Europes. One wants more solidarity between its members and more regulation; the other is attached only to the logic of the single market."
"We need Great Britain. We'd be greatly impoverished if we allowed its departure which, luckily, is not on the agenda"
- Nicolas Sarkozy, to Le Monde - 12-12-11

Europe still needs the investment capital that passes through the Square Mile; really all that Cameron is trying to do is ensure that taxation revenues which come from it flow to Westminster and not Frankfurt.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

As with all of these things, follow the money.

In his address to the Commons (in which Clegg was noticeably absent), Cameron said that the reasons for Britain staying out of the agreement was to protect the City of London which accounts for 10% of tax revenues. I'm going to have to check Hansard when it's published to see the exact words but it's still telling.



What Europeans think of British people is largely irrelevant, it's what trading partners do. Sarkozy probably said it best:

"Clearly there are now two Europes. One wants more solidarity between its members and more regulation; the other is attached only to the logic of the single market."
"We need Great Britain. We'd be greatly impoverished if we allowed its departure which, luckily, is not on the agenda"
- Nicolas Sarkozy, to Le Monde - 12-12-11

Europe still needs the investment capital that passes through the Square Mile; really all that Cameron is trying to do is ensure that taxation revenues which come from it flow to Westminster and not Frankfurt.

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I think the financial sector contributes more than 10% of the country's revenues. I've heard the figure 25% being mentioned although that may include the indirect effects such as increased stamp duty revenue thanks to the inflated property prices caused by financial sector pay. Just as if not more importantly though, London and the South East is entirely dependent on the financial sector and contributes to 40% of the British economy, subsidising other parts of the UK. If the City stumbles, London falls and it will take the rest of Britain with it.

I do think Cameron was right to not agree to the initial offer, his failure was not to offer an alternative or even amendments to the proposal. I think a French diplomat said it best when he said "Cameron forgot to bring his wife to the wife swapping party we were holding". Cameron utterly misjudged the rest of the EU's determination to finish the talks with an agreement and got left behind.