nice video from Andre Lanadinho about Mexico rally
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...=5L_XH-i5SGU#!
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nice video from Andre Lanadinho about Mexico rally
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...=5L_XH-i5SGU#!
Same corner, watch suspension.
http://www.autosport.cz/img/fotograf...ac21686165.jpg
http://www.autosport.cz/img/fotograf...5eb25e42b0.jpg
We can beat Ogier | Mads Ostberg Blog | Page 1 | WRC News | Mar 2013 | Crash.Net
"...Sadly, it was us that had the car issues on Saturday morning. It was just unbelievably bad luck and I couldn't believe it.
The initial clutch problem in SS14 – the first test of the second leg - was frustrating, and we would have lost a bit of time on hairpin corners, but it wouldn't have ended the rally for us. But then on the road section to SS15, the second test of the day, we had a warning on the dash and my heart immediately sank. It was an electrical problem and although Jonas [Andersson – my co-driver] and I tried our hardest to fix it – in constant contact with our engineer Nige – there was nothing we could do.
I was so frustrated that I kicked the car, and really hurt my foot. It shows how strong the Fiesta RS WRC is, as my foot definitely lost that one!..."
úp cho ngÃ*y cu?i tu?n nÃ*o :D
úp cho ngÃ*y cu?i tu?n nÃ*o :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
A picture says a thousand words! VW straighter in corner, Citroen more sideways, clearly the VW suspension has much larger travel and better traction then results. Add it up over enough corners over several days, must be significant.
Imagine now that there is a sharp stone on that corner 10 cm right from VW wheel. Which suspension is more protected? Citroen or VW? By making longer suspension travel you make it also more prone to different obstacles. Could it be one reaon Why JM retired in Mexico?
Not sure why Andre has changed his editing style, his images have a slight 'pasty' feel to them these days possibly through too much shadow recovery. Still the best WRC photographer though.
I don’t think the suspension travel is so important in cornering because due to weight transfer the outer wheels have to take care of the traction. Of course it’ always better to have all the four wheels on the ground instead of having one wheel in the air.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprocket
Imo the best benefit with long suspension travel are on crests and taking off for a jump. With longer suspension travel the wheels will be in touch with the ground longer and taking the car forward instead of beeing in the air and being slowed down by the air resistance.
I agree with Sprocket, the longer suspension travel must be important in all the cornering precisely because of the traction the car gets and the impetus it gets out of the each corner.
Also it allows the car to take the biggest advantage of the camber, two wheels solidly in the 'dip' will allow a higher cornering speed to be maintained (sideways forces on the tyre walls on the inside tyres prevent the car going as wide as it would otherwise) as well as the faster exit out as you say due to far better traction.Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
True, though one might argue it might throw the rear of the car away. This is where the rear suspension geometry comes in probably and gets the complete package.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprocket
Pleas guys, you cant get all of this out of two pictures. One car could be on the throttle and one on the brakes. It also look like one is closer to the camera than the other. One could be coming more at the camera and one more sideways. And it's maybe so simple that Citroen have stronger anti roll bar than VW.
You can get this from the pictures.
One could be on the throttle one on the brakes? No not at all. That is not so. You are looking at the worlds top drivers, they are not on the brakes in a corner! All the braking gear selection is done before. What you see is one key to the VW dominance, not all I'm sure but plenty of people here will see plenty from those pictures and be able to draw some conclusions from it.
The difference in pictures snapshots is a matter of thousands of the second probably, so it couldn't be much of the different driver's approach (as Sprocket said "top class drivers"), it's all about the car behavior.
Now I too am one of many, too, and I can not see it so clearly. And if the whole secret to VW, longer suspension travel, and this is so clear, then the other teams have solved that problem to the next race.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprocket
BEAUTIFUL photos!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fomchenkov Andrey
I stated part of it not all. I think in the past Citroen had to do very little to stay ahead of the game. Not so now. It won't have escaped them that the VW might be a better handling car as well as perhaps more powerful?Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach 2
Put it another way, forget the technical explanations and think for a moment which to you 'looks right'. If you think the VW looks in better shape than the Citroen as I do (Citroen is clearly more sideways and has less rubber in contact with the surface), then it is not hard to imagine the VW went round the corner a tenth or two of a second faster. Now add that for all corners of a stage, then all corners of a rally and what do you get? So longer suspension travel could easily be a significant factor, if not the whole story, at this level of competition.
The proof will come if Citroen see something in it and adopt longer travel in future gravel rallies, I'll be watching out for it, all part of the fun of the sport!
PS Hirvonen said himself he needs to drive less sideways to challenge Ogier, there is technique issue as well, but it is clear to me from the picture the VW helps the driver more than the Citroen to achieve that goal.
from one picture you cant have conclusions.Also dont forget that fiesta has also bigger suspension travel from ds3.
Also I know Ogier's driving style, it doesn't impose braking in the corner in any case.
These are not the only pictures I've been looking at, there are plenty available demonstrating what good shape the VW is in when cornering, particularly with Ogier at the wheel. I know Ogier is quick but 3 minutes quicker over a rally should get people looking into things and maybe learning along the way what VW have been getting up to ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
I started what I didn't even want :) No matter the situation on the photo it's fact VW has longer travel. What are the benefits and disadvantages is an interesting question for me and I don't care if we continue about that. But I would surely not overestimated one particular photo, that was just a random thing I found particularly interesting going through photos of André - in the end it might be like the discussion in Swedish topic about Ogier/JML in the same corner. Just remember ;)
It is important because the traction of an axle depends on the wheel with lesser load. Limited slip differential can't lock completely and therefore one wheel in the air must reduce the torque on the other as well. If You make the same with normal car without LSD You would just spin the inner wheel in the air and You would not accelerate at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldF
The other thing is that there is some limit for lateral forces the tyres are able to cope with. If You have a wheel in the air it means the lateral force on those on the ground is higher - You have either smaller cornering speed or You loose time sliding sideways. The situation is the worse that car kicked in the air has higher center of gravity and the load on outer wheels is therefore further increased.
Just thinking loud here, feel free to tell me if it's BS :)
But there was sure a good point from Bluuford about the vulnerability of long struts. That sure is more risky. I also remember when they first brought Fiesta S2000 here in CZ. That time it was the only car with extremely long suspension travel (who would think VW will go even further). On our extremely bumpy asphalt they had huge problems to make a suitable setup. The asphalt suspension settings of M-Sport were useless because especially in braking the car was very hard to control sliding over the sumpguard. The problem was that when they made the ground clearance higher the suspension became very soft and unstable for competing on asphalt. I don't know how it was later solved with Prokop/Tarabus but I clearly remember the initial issues resulting in many hot moments.
By the way even last year Flodin with PS Engineering Fiesta touched ground very frequently in Barum rally...
you keep comparing Ogier with Mikko,and you make conclusions about polo vs ds3....Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprocket
Yep we should keep in mind this 'between rally' nattering and not life and death stuff lol.
The thought that crossed my mind was how come Loeb was doing well with what I would presume was the same set-up last year on the Citroen, surely if it wasn't working good Citroen would have known? Or would he have trailed Ogier this year? It is kind of killing me we will never know as there seems little hope of a fight this year between the Sebs.
What other benchmarks do we have right now? Should I compare Sordo to Latvala in Mexico?Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
very well said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Mirek just a correction here....plated lsd diffs can transfer plenty of torque even when you have one wheel of the ground.Some other type lsd diffs like torsen yes they cant transfer torque when we have one wheel in the air.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
i ve said that hyenas waiting for Argentina ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprocket
Very good points, but not perfect perhaps - how come a car with higher center of gravity will put more pressure on the other wheels, it will just slide it imo. I still don't get it for the great danger long suspension travel might become. Perhaps the tyres are stronger these days in every direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
I know but "plenty" is still less than if both wheels have similar traction ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
I think this was referring to the Latvala retirement. One could guess that the track control arm is more exposed to bigger rocks if the suspension travel is longer? So a rock that the DS3 might hit with the front bumper could presumably get past this on the VW and hit the TCA? I'm sure VW will look into that. Trust Latvala to find the right sized rock to just go under, yet be big enough to break the TCA :DQuote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
I remember from Finland and Sardinia last year, that despite the shorter travel, the DS3 seemed to have better traction than the Fiesta. The Citroëns looked even slightly understeered (mostly Loeb and Neuville, Hirvonen less, perhaps due to his driving style)... http://rally-image.be/foto/0311/images/047.jpg - on this photo from Finland you could think the suspension is doing a bad job, but in fact Loeb was extremely fast there, faster than all others, and the car didn't even go sideways... Spring travel is one thing, dampers characteristics another thing... I think the dampers were the main difference between Citroën and Ford last year, especially in Finland, the cornering speed of Citroën was much higher before they started to go sideways. And that's something we certainly can't judge from one photo. A few years ago Loix was testing several sets of new dampers (think 3 sets) for the Ypres Rally, with Skoda. All looked exactly the same from the outside and had the same dimensions of course. What's in the inside is unfortunately hidden and kept secret for us, but when he got back in the service area after testing another set of dampers, a smile on his face revealed there was a noticable difference... :) Just to say, don't judge the whole suspension on just the travel regarding photos from one particular situation...
I don't think the suspension travel is variable here, just bad luckQuote:
Originally Posted by Sprocket
That's what I meant. If the apex speed is same the car with higher center of gravity will start sliding because the load on outer wheels would be too high. In extreme situation on dry asphalt it can end by rollover :)Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
Any construction made of long narrow components is rather fragile or better to say can't be so strong like similar construction made of shorter elements. That's natural thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
In my opinion the difference You speak about (Fiesta/DS3) was more in differential settings but that's just my feeling ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by tommeke_B
It depends of the construction I think, it might appear even strongerQuote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
EDIT:
http://data21.gallery.ru/albums/gall...740-u7379c.jpg
The longer your suspension travel is, the more fragile it is, without any doubt. If you have an impact, if the distance towards the top mount is 1,5x as much as with another car, the torque on the top mount will be 1,5x as much too. And if the wheel drops deeper, the chance of hitting some edge/stone/whatever is multiple times higher too.Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
Of course it's likely some set-up thing, but still, my point is that there is more on a rally-car than just suspension-travel. :) Some people here are almost translating time differences between Ogier and Hirvonen to the difference in suspension travel, and that's not so smart...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek