https://www.facebook.com/mwmsports/p...91829974349942
Interesting...Quote:
Citroën-hopes were crushed when the team was forced to run only two factory cars in 2018 and one under PH-Sport.
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https://www.facebook.com/mwmsports/p...91829974349942
Interesting...Quote:
Citroën-hopes were crushed when the team was forced to run only two factory cars in 2018 and one under PH-Sport.
It sounds like Meeke wasn't listened to during the testing and development phase as much as he should've been (obviously that doesn't excuse some of his crashes). Matton has already admitted they took some big risks in engineering and development (maybe things they learned from their wtcc time?), and it has now backfired (his words). Meeke has also spoken about how he wanted another experienced driver alongside him during the testing program but that didn't happen either, and it took them until Andreas came in to reinforce how undrivable the car was, before they finally made some much needed changes (changes that Meeke said he'd been pushing for since before the season started).
It's like they were being so tight with the budget and didn't want to make changes to the car until they were sure the car needed it, hence finally hiring Mikkelsen for a few rallies (despite the fact he should've been in the team over Lefebrve anyway). Or they just didn't trust Meeke at all, and if that's the case, why let him be main test driver? They should've just let Loeb do the majority of that work if they didn't have faith in what Meeke was telling them. It's hard to tell if it's complete arrogance from Matton that his way and only his way is correct (so much so he ignores drivers feedback and his own eyes), or if his hands have been tied massively with the budget and the risks taken in engineering and development were made to save money (and not necessarily to try and find that extra bit of performance).
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If true that's depressing. A year of that and then they'll be leaving in 2019. You have to question why they'd leave wtcc where they were dominating, and return to the WRC and piss about with this half arsed approach? This is/was the greatest team in WRC history but they have certainly tried hard since their return to look the exact opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
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I can't make much sense of that blog tbh.
If we believe that in every rumour there’s a bit of truth, eventually this PH Sport story may not be the confirmation of Citroen’s debacle (like the Finn journo suggests) but quite the opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
At same point of this ‘novel’, the clash between Abu Dhabi and red Bull come out; apparently there’s a RB partial ban in the Emirates and to get the third C3 under PH Sport assistance (basically only using PHS name) could make everybody happy: Ogier and Meeke on the Citroen/RB main cars and Al Qassimi/Breen sharing the Abu Dhabi one.
Btw, a similar arrangement was done on Al Qassimi cross country runs (including the Dakar): he got a 2008 from Peugeot but it was run under a PH Sport entry.
This may sound as silly wishfully thinking, but Citroen needs Ogier and the WRC needs Citroen so, fingers crossed!
L’Equipe says Citroen didn’t offer enough money to Ogier but Matton has simply said the “demanded resources” weren’t fulfilled and talks have ended some days ago (Autohebdo).
Probably we’ll never know what went wrong but it’s hard to believe that money was the real issue; Citroen Racing is part of Europe’s second largest car group and they know pretty well how much it takes to win at WRC level.
Maybe Ogier was asking for too many changes in Citroen Racing structure; maybe the Red Bull/Abu Dhabi clash was impossible to fix (although it won’t prevent Al Qassimi to enter next Dakar on a last spec Peugeot); maybe Loeb’s sudden reappearance didn’t make Ogier happy; one thing is sure: Citroen missed their best change to get back to a winning path. That’s a shame.
Citroën critical mistake was not stay with Mikkelsen.
They chose to gamble for Ogier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira
I predict that 2018 will be the last year of Citroën in the WRC...
Yes... And/Or not being almost certain to get Ogier before making him leave.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira
I'm afraid of that as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by dupanton
Seems like they need a miracle to turn 2018 around.
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I have a feeling that they won't even contest 2018
a while ago there was quit credible rumors about Citroen having in 2018 only two works cars and one customer car run by PH Sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by car
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira
While it's easy to judge after all those years it still has to be mentioned that the critical mistake actually happened when they let Ogier go, or better to say when they got rid of him. It's of course extremely difficult to push new young guy against the old and the-greatest-of-all-drivers-ever colleague. If I remember right Olivier Quesnel tried but in the end had to go as well. In that time I understood Citroën's stance but from today's point of view that was the point when they lost the chance to secure the continuity of their dominance. In fact now it looks rather similar to the situation in which Citroën was already before - in 2003 when the newbie Loeb had to compete with two legendary world champions in the same team - Carlos Sainz and Colin McRae.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Of course nobody can see in the future. Once they chose right, once they didn't. Anyway it's interesting story I think.
Yes, it was their biggest mistake, but now they still making stupid decisions. Have not so good lineup and doing nothing to change that - ok, miss chance to get some rally winning drivers, but also don't have talented young guys...Only major changes can save Citroen WRT, but seems it not gonna happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Matton gambled too much on Seb and turned his nose up (twice!!) on Andreas, who is a very good driver. In fact anyone in the wrc would be better than Lefebrve right now, but because he's French he stays? Citroen would be better off trying to offer Hyundai a good solution to take Sordo back or get Paddon, or they should go for Tidemand. All three would be better for the team as 3rd driver alongside Meeke and Breen.
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It's not looking good for Citroen, they will probably have the weakest line-up and the car performance is not encouraging. As others have said they might end up doing some kind of limited year in 2018, maybe even two cars only and then retire. It would be such a shame. I don't know what to think of what's going on in this team anymore.
and you guys got mad at times when N.O.T called them Arab Team of Nobodies....
im telling you, N.O.T is god
It amazes me to see how they can fuck it up so bad. Last year they had 3 of the best drivers available for hire, and they got none. Now there where 2 available, and once again they got none.
If matton doesn't get fired now, they deserve no better than being dead last in the championship again.
I'm going further with this...would it mean that Meeke drives a full season, Breen has to alternate with Loeb and Qassimi in the 2nd car while someone else drives the customer car?Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Its quite puzzling to see that even now they aren't trying to get Tiedemand or Suninen, which are both cheap and talented. Matton should be shown the door.
Tidemand and Suninen bring nothing better than Breen. What they badly need now is not another inexperienced drivers.
Maybe, but those guys are there only chance to see some better results. All their current drivers have hit their ceiling.
Do you really think Mikkelsen wanted to stay in Citroen when he had the chance to go to Huyndai...? I don't think so :)Quote:
Originally Posted by er88
Yeah, I remember that.... don’t know why I think what I do, but just get the feeling they haven’t made enough noise about 2018 to indicate they are staying. PSA as a group may be sat upon a potential emissions scandal and this will cause a withdrawal.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Not after seeing how much he struggled with the car on gravel, but he would've signed a proper deal with Citroen early in the season, or before the season even began imo. That's when Matton should've offered him a long term deal and it was obvious at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by SubaruNorway
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You really start to wonder how much time Matton has left in his job now. I don't feel like he has done anything in his years as the boss.
What Citroen needs is a competent leading driver, able to motivate the whole team. In that sense, I don’t think Mikkelsen would make a huge difference from Meeke, besides being a more reliable driver. Ogier, with his constant winning focus and proven tech expertise would certainly push all Citroen staff members into a winning path; that’s what he did in VW and MSport.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira
On a hopeful note, we should remember Peugeot recent Dakar experience. Their first 2008DKR, in 2015, was a major flop, but with the help of a retired PSA tech guru (JC Vaucard) and the motivation of their leading driver (Peterhansel), they’ve managed to fix it and get a winning machine that’s still dominating the event.
Maybe Citroen new tech chief (Besse) work and a further involvement from Loeb on the C3 development can operate a similar result…fingers crossed!
You forgot something, Citroen brings in this season quite a show. Still they have huge numbers of selling passenger C3's. And Serderidis car looks amazing. That livery rocks. All of official liveries are quite not much special this year, except Kremer's Fiesta was nice. Hyundai have better last year. And M-Sport was good looking for eyes some years ago with Castrol EDGE and Abu Dhabi. Really ugly I could say Bertelli have not taste at all.
Nobody cares how looser's car looks.Quote:
Originally Posted by ESTR
Bertelli had a nice car.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
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I will admit that I have always just looked at talk like that as some kind of hero worship but since i see it so much--and since it is nearly the exact opposite of what I have seen in my 45-50 years in another motorsport...I am compelled to ask:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
What are you guys (collectively) suggesting when you guys say so-and-so driver has "tech expertise" ?
I say sure some top drivers can say clearly "what the want" the car to do, but my experience is the higher you go in results, the less the driver/rider knows or cares about the technical side......the more it becomes "I want this __________."
What do you mean or are suggesting?
Trust me janvanvurpa, no hero worship, just stating what VW and MSport people said about him: he’s relentlessly working to develop the car and find the perfect set up. Being able to do it is a tech expertise by itself, no matter the degree of engineering knowledge one may, or not, have.Quote:
Originally Posted by janvanvurpa
I'd say it's not very motivating to repair the car over and over again for no results with sometimes 2 crashes in same rally, so in that case even Mikkelsen would be an improvement. What's more if there were 2 winning drivers it takes the pressure off Meeke quite a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
About Ogier, his titles/wins with different cars also put quite a lot more weight behind any feedback/demands he has, even if he was saying exactly same things as say Lefevbre. (note: I have no idea how good he actually is at that).
It’s worth remembering, without denying his issues, that Meeke was the only one to win a rally with that car (in fact 2.5 rallies)Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
I agree with your point that with inexperienced team mates there was perhaps too much resting on Meeke’s shoulders though.
You speak about Meeke as if noone else has ever goes off the road. You pay no credence to the fact the car has been difficult to drive, and the pressure put on him my management to salvage something from the season, by trying to win an odd rally. Your a pathetic individual.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Andreas wouldn't have been an improvement over Meeke, especially aligned with Citroen's objectives this season which were purely "wins". Unless you think a man who's won only two WRC events in his whole career (while driving in a dominant VW for years), would have been able to win more events this season in that C3, than ANY other driver in the championship except Neuville?Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Meeke really isn't the problem at Citroen, so im not sure why all year you've been acting like he's their biggest issue, unless you just hate him? Which in that case fair enough, there would be no point discussing this with you...
Andreas should have been replacing Lefebrve before the season started, nevermind during it. Meeke, Mikkelsen and Breen would have been a good team for this year and next.
Instead we will have a team with Lefebrve as 3rd driver, a team that is lacking a lot of finance and a team with a manager who has made bad decisions since Citroen re entered the WRC fulltime. Yet they've still won two events (and it most likely would've been 3 had the car not blown up in Corsica), and that's down to your pet hate Meeke
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I agree that it's debatable how much improvement it would be to replace Meeke with Mikkelsen. The only clear part is there would be less crashes as stated by my post.
This is why I mention what you also end up with... that Meeke and Mikkelsen would certainly be much better than what they have now. Both due to Mikkelsen's performance and the positive effects it would likely have on Meeke and car development.
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Technicalities not important to the main point:
- Citroen's goal of "only event wins" first came after Corsica (by Matton) when they saw that they had no chance in championship
- "2,5" event wins by Meeke is kind of funny specially in light of Mexico last stage, clearly Neuville does not have one full win for Monte and Sweden combined
- Mikkelsen has won 3 wins so far, if you turn it around you might also say that he then beat the best driver (Ogier) in same car.
one of the reasons they didnt keep mikkelsen was he couldnt setup the kitchen table... and had savage tyre wear...plus he wasnt actually quick in saradina or poland.. the car made him look 1/2 good on germany.. but i know people were not happy that he got beat by a ford in germany, as they knew the car was much superior than the ford on tarmac. the only good think about mikkelsen driving the citroen is that it proved meeke was right...
and the defiencies of the the car were much greater than they realisedQuote:
Originally Posted by mknight