I like Kimi. He's got a bit of attitude and I like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
Can't stand the boring drivers that just trot out the corporate line.
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I like Kimi. He's got a bit of attitude and I like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
Can't stand the boring drivers that just trot out the corporate line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
at 1:16 maybe ?
I did explain it, go check it out. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey T
There is no chicane cutting there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
:D And here I was thinking you were a straight arrow :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
Oh ok..thought at 1.15 and 1.16 I saw Arnoux cutting a corner there.....Looking at the position of the curbs..But maybe I am wrong again !Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
All I want is racing.Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
I don't give a fig if Ferrari win as long as it was a fair fight with hopefully good racing.
I do like drivers with attitude though as they make it more personal.
JPM, JV, our Nige, Kimi and Lewis all have a bit of attitude which spices things up a bit.
Ian Phillips (Force India) is saying on FIve Live that in the team managers' meeting at Monza Charlie Whiting reminded the teams that if you gain an advantage you should wait until at least the next corner until you overtake.
Trouble is, none of the team mangers have any recollection of such a ruling and it certainly doesn't appear in the sporting code.
This is the problem: not so much whether Lewis or Kimi did anything wrong but the total fogginess of a rulebook which leaves so much open to interpretation.
:erm: I was talking about your liking the lad. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, straight arrow :p :Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Brockman
Conspiracy theorists might think it is purposely left foggy ;)
Should have read, "open to manipulation" :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Brockman
You forget JPYM as well. The y stands for "you ****ing broke my head!" :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
The old BTCC rulebook started off with the line "If it doesn't say you can, you can't."
Saved a lot of bother, that did.
That was a classic Montoya moment :laugh: :up: :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
The problem again comes down to the fact that a rulebook can't be all inclusive. Every single time I've seen this sort of thing happen the driver has always given the place back and not attacked for a corner or two, they've been penalised for not giving the place back at all or they've sort of given the place back as Lewis did and they got penalised. I can't actually recall when I last saw someone do what Lewis did. Can anyone tell me when the last time someone gained and advantage, gave the place back and then overtook all within the time from one corner to another?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Brockman
Entirely possible, but then how can you possibly impose a punishment for something not covered by the rules? All you can do is issue a clarification so that going forward everybody knows where they stand. This is what should have been done in Belgium: clarify exactly what the procedure is for relinquishing any advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
That's it in a nutshell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Brockman
There is nothing in the rules about giving back any advantage. However, the understanding is that if you gain a place or maintain a place by going off track, you relinquish it or get a drive through.
Now, Charlie has "reiterated" than any advantage needs to be given back and no overtake until after the next corner. Problem is, nobody can remember him saying that before :D
Well like I said it has AFAIK never happened before. Thing is there is a rule against gaining an advantage though ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Brockman
I think the driver and team should take some responsibility for not being a bit more sensible with things......
Really? There's a rule that covers gaining an advantage?Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Can you show it please.
Is there not? My bad if so!Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
As Dave says though "If it doesn't say you can, you can't" should be the way it operates.
I'm pretty sure there were similar incidents at Monza's first chicance, concede position and then attack at the second chicane.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Can't come up with examples though, too busy to research youtube!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Should is a bit different to "is".
That's the problem. Too many nudges and winks on how the rules are interpreted.
So, today it has been said that if you overtake and give the place back, you don't overtake until after the next corner.
Again, this ISN'T in the rules and you can still be penalised if you follow this advice from Charlie as McLaren were.
As has been pointed out Charlie isn't responsible for these sort of things during the race.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
To an extent he does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
He does the driver briefing.
Quote:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70480
"But, you can do two things in life – you can dwell on the past or you can try and get clarification on things and move forward. That is the way I live my life.
"In the drivers' briefing tomorrow we will try and get clarification about the conditions we are racing under and we will move forward. And when some fans go, some fans come. That is the natural evolution of life."
almost everyone..from drivers..teams..to fans gave there view on things...but FIA itself..while they should have been the first to come out with a clear statement..first on what the penalty was based on..and secondly on what exactly should be donne from now on if something similar....and yes they should have donne it this week knowing Monza was next...They failed in doin so...Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
as I said before, the fact that Ron asked Charlie twice if Lewis's pass was ok shows you that even RD knew it was well dodgy... if in doubt, don't do it!
Sorry, but to a degree he is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
He's the one the teams turn to and is involved in referring incidents to the Stewards.
In this situation, he confirmed that McLaren were OK and then referred it to the Stewards to investigate.
Can you not see why McLaren are aggrieved.
The second chicane, although in practice it is the next corner, is of course after the Curva Grande.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
They do the driver briefing while they're racing these days? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
Well dodgy? :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by HereIam
He spoke with the Race Director to confirm that he concurred that they had given the place back correctly. He said "probably" so they rechecked and then he confirmed that it was OK.
Otherwise, as Ron pointed out, they would have let Kimi past again and then retaken him.
The idiots in this are the Stewards for a diabolical penalty and CW for confirming this was OK and then changing his mind after the race and referring it to the Stewards.
He said they were probably OK. In the time it would have taken McLaren to contact Charlie and for him to say it's probabl OK Lewis would have been well around the next corner and to a certain extent the offence was already committed and couldn't be taken back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
I've said time and time again I can understand why McLaren feel hard done by but I still think an offence was committed.........
I say again that McLaren were wrong to contact Charlie on this. He is not responsible for the judgement. I think in this sort of case where a driver cuts a corner the onus is on him to clearly show that he's not gained an advantage out of it. It really is that simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
Hamitlon was not "leading" at Magny Cours in the same sense as Schumi had been "leading" at the Hungaroring. Hamilton was not clearly in front....his car may have been ahead but it had only been there for about 1 second so would have been considered to have been overtaking. Michael had been in front for a good 20+ laps.Quote:
Originally Posted by PolePosition_1
There is a difference.
The idiots are also on the Mclaren pit-wall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
If they had any doubt, and there is evidently a lot of doubt as to what is fair and what is not, then they should have drilled it into the head of their star player and themselves that they make damn sure that they didn't even need to ask the question to the Race Director.
They are idiots for asking the Race Director when he doesn't, and never has, been responsible for penalties.
They are idiots for risking a penalty, especially if your theory of the FIA seeking any way to punish them is to hold any water. Why push your luck if the powers that be will clobber you for every infraction?
Sometimes, Knockie, it would help you to see that the team you so evidently love are their own worst enemies.
I had numerous seasons watching the Scuderia implode, explode and generally fall flat on their face due to their own, only to obvious, failings.
How many times Daniel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
It's not what you think they should do and your opinion but what the rules say, what protocol states and what precedent is in place.
All of which McLaren followed.
If the Stewards were to investigate straight away, then McLaren would have been told of it and could have done a drive through or let Kimi pass. At that point, they could have discussed it with the Stewards but that procedure, which is in the regulations wasn't followed so they accepted the Race Directors word that they were OK. Not probably OK but OK.
It was after the race that Charlie referred it to the Stewards.
Those are the facts. Can we stick to them and not opinion and what you think should have happened.
Do you have a link for that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
First, I don't Love McLaren. I support them along with Williams and Honda.Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
I greatly admire Lewis's ability behind the wheel and have been privileged to to see him coming up through the formulas.
However, Love, and in particular blind Love is reserved for the Tifosi :)
Historically, teams have always directed communication with the Race Director. If there is an incident, the Race Director forwards it to the Stewards to investigate and it comes up on the monitors. At this stage the Team talks with the Stewards.
This was the same when you were working for Renault as it is today. McLaren were following the procedure that everyone's followed for years.
I can see with hindsight that it would have been better to wait until after the next corner to overtake Kimi because it was never an issue of whether he was going to get past. He could have done it anytime but he's a racer and took the first opportunity and complied with the standard procedure after gaining an advantage.
I can see with hindsight that they shouldn't believe a word Charlie Whiting says as he says one thing and does another.
But hindsight is a wonderful thing that isn't available in the middle of a race. We had a superb battle and yet again, it's been ruined by the FIA's incompetence.
Lets see how the appeal goes.
*sigh*Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
yeah guys can we stick to knock on's version of the truth and his assumptions rather than what we see as the facts and what we see as logical? :p
From what I can remember the issue of Lewis cutting the chicane was shown as being investigated by the stewards BEFORE the end of the race. So please can we stick to the facts old bean?
Like I said the race director is not responsible for the judgement so why ask him? When this sort of thing happens the drivers needs to concede the advantage quickly so as to avoid being penalised and not when the team has done the wrong thing and gone chatting to the person who isn't even in charge of making the decision to see if it's OK.
The teams have not always directed communication with the Race Director with regards to incidents that the Stewards look into.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
The Stewards are well above the Race Director when it comes to deciding if they are going to investigate an incident and do not need the Race Director to forward it to them. They can decide to investigate if the matter is referred or not.
In laymans terms, the Stewards are the referee, the Race Director merely a Linesman.
I'll have none of that! Stick to the facts as he presents them please!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello