Is global warming/climate change a crock?

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

I think you're giving the European car makers too much credit with the exception of the Germans. In the 1970s, the era you're talking about, the British, French and Italian car makers were in no position to catch the Japanese in terms of clean burn technology either financially or technologically. Also most of them were facing such big problems with industrial action that merely getting cars out of the factory door was a major triumph let alone getting them past US emissions standards. End result? Possibly billions of dollars worth of lost sales after having to pull out of the US market and being locked out for the last three decades. Not all major industries are capable of reacting quickly enough to changes in legislation, however far ahead they learn of them.

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America wasn't real sharp on clean burn either. thats why when you popped a hood in 1974 on an American car all you saw were hoses, cannisters, filters, and tubing running everywhere. You almost couldn't see the engine. They piled on so many anti-pollution devices that gas mileage dropped like a rock.

One reason SUVs even came about was the absolute lack of regulation on them. There were regulations for pickup trucks and passenger cars but none for SUVs. What the hell is an SUV? Now, slowly, SUVs are also growing regulations. Next we'll have PTCs, personal transportation craft, to avoid more regulations.

It's a big dog chasing it's tail.

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Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7

One of the drawbacks of communicating in text is that lack of voice tone that gives one an insight into how a comment is meant.

Aside from a few absolute, fulltime knotheads that used to be here all the time, I don't have any hard feelings for anybody on this forum. I even like Eki.

No problems Mr. Dunnell and what it's worth I'm begining to explore the CO2 kind of thing. I'm not convinced, but I'm willing to look with an open mind.

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Just as I have come to understand that the opinions regarding global warming of pretty much everybody, including myself and those that think this way, who isn't a climate scientist has to be based on some form of opinion or belief rather than hard facts, because the whole thing is bloody difficult to digest. I don't think I'm about to change my view, but I do believe that panicking isn't the best way forward, because certain things simply will not change. Thankfully, industry does have a habit of finding ways round this and moving technology on.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

A very good assessment.

Your mention of Germany (West Germany, to be more precise) is very worthwhile, because the same could be said of many of the small environmental initiatives to do with recycling, alternative energy, etc that would be seen as revolutionary in many other countries, like the UK, but which became commonplace in West Germany years ago. They are now a part of life there, and no great burden on anyone. Many other nations would do well to go some way towards embracing Germany's all-round environmental awareness, which is in no way obsessive — this is, after all, a country that certainly used to have one of the highest rates of car ownership per capita in Europe. Yet, still, people often choose to take the train...

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A good example of how far the UK is behind is recycling in Australia. Australia is supposed to be a backwards country with kangaroos in every backyard and so on.....

But we've been recycling anything with a recycling logo on it plus paper and tins and so on for 15 years at least where I lived and for about 12 or so of those years you haven't even had to sort it out into glass, paper, plastic and so on.

Yet here in Denbighshire (Denbigh****e I like to call it) you have to sort it out and they don't even accept cardboard and they've only been recycling for a few years :crazy: Now of course there will be places that do a better job but I think this sort of "attempt" at recycling is pitiful at best. Then there's the fact that they only supply a small rubbish bin and because of the fact that they don't recycle cardboard and only collect the rubbish every fortnight two people like Caroline and myself sometimes end up with a bin that can't close :mark: I hate to think of how families cope.......

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Your mention of Germany (West Germany, to be more precise) is very worthwhile, because the same could be said of many of the small environmental initiatives to do with recycling, alternative energy, etc that would be seen as revolutionary in many other countries, like the UK, but which became commonplace in West Germany years ago. They are now a part of life there, and no great burden on anyone. Many other nations would do well to go some way towards embracing Germany's all-round environmental awareness, which is in no way obsessive — this is, after all, a country that certainly used to have one of the highest rates of car ownership per capita in Europe. Yet, still, people often choose to take the train...

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I know a lot of countries prefer to fight against efforts to fight global warming citing the cost etc but I think they're missing a trick in a way. As you said the Germans and Scandinavians embraced environmentalism a long while back and some of their companies have developed technology that is instrumental in reducing pollution. Payback will come when they get to sell or licence their products to allow countries like the UK or US to get them to meet future emissions regulations.

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Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7

America wasn't real sharp on clean burn either. thats why when you popped a hood in 1974 on an American car all you saw were hoses, cannisters, filters, and tubing running everywhere. You almost couldn't see the engine. They piled on so many anti-pollution devices that gas mileage dropped like a rock.

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There's a fantastic story about Lee Iacocca who revered Mr Honda and went to do a deal with him over CVCC. Ford, Iacocca's then employer, would agree to buy several hundred thousand CVCC units to be installed in a compact FWD Ford. In return Ford would buy a large stake in Honda. The deal was set up, the Ford engineers started work then Iacocca took the plans to Ford Jr, then running the company, to sign. On realising that the cars would have Honda engines, he is supposed to have said "I ain't having Jap engines in my cars" and cancelled the deal.

Imagine an alternative history where Ford, not Honda, introduced lean burn engines to the US, where the Civic never existed and where Honda ended up as a subsidiary of Ford.....

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

I know a lot of countries prefer to fight against efforts to fight global warming citing the cost etc but I think they're missing a trick in a way. As you said the Germans and Scandinavians embraced environmentalism a long while back and some of their companies have developed technology that is instrumental in reducing pollution. Payback will come when they get to sell or licence their products to allow countries like the UK or US to get them to meet future emissions regulations.

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On a minor level, can you imagine the outcry if the UK brought in rubbish separation? Quite a lot of people would be up in arms about it, yet it is simple and doable. I know that some councils do insist on separating different goods for recycling, but I also know that some then lump it all in together (or at least used to), which is really pathetic. So too is not allowing businesses to recycle, because of the cost, as was (and maybe is) the policy of the council local to a former workplace of mine.

Since most of us agree that the climate is changing, the main argument is about whether man is speeding it up, causing it, or innocent. Since we all accept that the climate has changed before man's influence I would suggest the majority of any funding and technology in the short term be directed at identifing exactly who and what will be affected and preparing for them to move from or adapt to the changes. I doubt whats happening now can be stopped but if we can ease the transition over this bump, then we can focus on the future.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

There's a fantastic story about Lee Iacocca who revered Mr Honda and went to do a deal with him over CVCC. Ford, Iacocca's then employer, would agree to buy several hundred thousand CVCC units to be installed in a compact FWD Ford. In return Ford would buy a large stake in Honda. The deal was set up, the Ford engineers started work then Iacocca took the plans to Ford Jr, then running the company, to sign. On realising that the cars would have Honda engines, he is supposed to have said "I ain't having Jap engines in my cars" and cancelled the deal.

Imagine an alternative history where Ford, not Honda, introduced lean burn engines to the US, where the Civic never existed and where Honda ended up as a subsidiary of Ford.....

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I believe it was Ford Jr. that blew the deal to buy Ferrari also when he refused to promise Enzo that Ford would keep the racing division operational. Honda should feel lucky Ford didn't buy them out, although I believe Ford did help Jag very much with their quaility control.

Dylan, you connected with Honda or just a big fan? Don't answer that if it's going to land me, you, or both of us in an Italian courtroom.

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Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7

I believe it was Ford Jr. that blew the deal to buy Ferrari also when he refused to promise Enzo that Ford would keep the racing division operational.

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That is my understanding. Of course, without this there would probably have been no GT40.

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Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7

Honda should feel lucky Ford didn't buy them out, although I believe Ford did help Jag very much with their quaility control.

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They did. They should feel doubly lucky, because the tie-up with Rover produced some of the most memorable cars of all time. Sorry, I think I had a temporary blackout while writing the last sentence.

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Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7

Dylan, you connected with Honda or just a big fan? Don't answer that if it's going to land me, you, or both of us in an Italian courtroom.

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Nah, I read a book called 'six men that changed the car industry' or something similar that had plenty of anecdotes of incidents that could have changed the course of automotive history. There's plenty more stories where that came from and I'd definitely recommend it.