Should we be using winter tyres in the UK?

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Since you live on an island where a snowstorm can cripple the whole nation for 2 weeks, I am going to assume your winter driving experience is limited and was on roads not ploughed or handled properly. I don't know if you drove an AWD or 4WD on the snow or not, but I think I can tell you very safely that an SUV with 4WD will only be the asset you think it is if you are always very wary of the conditions.

People who drive one of these beasts never slide accelerating, or spin their wheels a whole lot less. Once up to "speed" they are not thinking things are not slippery. Then they brake, or go to turn, and they find out what I found out in my little Nissan when I went to leave the parking lot. That it is slippery!

As someone who has driven over 300000 MILES in the last 2 years, about a third of that was in winter. Out of that time, I will say that without a doubt the vehicles that had the least respect for how slippery it was were driven by people fooled by that feeling they are getting in their SUV's. IN the Big Rig I was driving, I could feel the lack of traction because with the high center of gravity, you are very aware of the "feel" through the wheel and you will get wheelspin. The guys in the cars without this asset usually were going as slow as I was, or slower. The 4wd people? Driving like it was a nice day....and then you just had to look at the cars in in the ditch, and see people who had passed you not 10 minutes ago.

Dumb driving will put you off the road and smart driving wont, but when you are in a vehicle with great mass, a higher center of gravity but great accelerative traction, you are living in the danger zone. You have no concept of slippery it is from what your senses are telling you. I know this because my mother had a Jeep Cherokee and I found this was my personal experience. It never felt as slippery through the wheel or my senses driving that Jeep but I knew when I was in my car before that it WAS dangerous.

If experienced drivers can be fooled, you think the ignorant or clueless aren't more dangerous in a SUV?? Unfornuately, you cant tell people what to drive.

So I tell everyone, a car with good winter tires is SAFER in that it is more controllable and less likely to be in an accident than an SUV. My bias? Sure...but one borne out of living in a winter nation and driving for a living for the last 14 years.

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Mark! you are comparing driving habits between drivers of different types of vehicle rather than the safety of such vehicles if driven properly. I certainly would not use a 2 WD vehicle to supervise snow clearing - we used the old Landrovers in those days - and coming down a long incline, one had to put the Landrover into second gear to slow it down, and use the brakes very gingerly. So going to your last paragraph, would you still insist that a 2 WD fitted with winter tyres is safer than a 4WD fitted with winter tyres driven by the same person? Because when I was coming down to Island Bend from Renix Gap, I was sure as heck happier to be in a Landrover than a Ford Falcon fitted with winter tyres.

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Originally Posted by Langdale Forest

That's down to 'stupid' drvers.

Front wheel drive cars are always getting stuck in the snow here on even the slightest hill and 4x4s have no problems.

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I've never been stuck in snow in my front wheel drive car and I've had my driving license for quite a while. It's the tires, on summer tires 4x4 certainly helps a bit but I would never even think of driving in the snow with summer tires no matter what car I had under me. But I guess you have to in the UK.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

Mark! you are comparing driving habits between drivers of different types of vehicle rather than the safety of such vehicles if driven properly. I certainly would not use a 2 WD vehicle to supervise snow clearing - we used the old Landrovers in those days - and coming down a long incline, one had to put the Landrover into second gear to slow it down, and use the brakes very gingerly. So going to your last paragraph, would you still insist that a 2 WD fitted with winter tyres is safer than a 4WD fitted with winter tyres driven by the same person? Because when I was coming down to Island Bend from Renix Gap, I was sure as heck happier to be in a Landrover than a Ford Falcon fitted with winter tyres.

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Well first off, I would love a Falcon period..lol

You are correct that 4wd is the best for traction BUT what I am trying to emphasize that the 4wd is no panacea or equalizer for bad driving habits in bad conditions. The reason I am pretty sour on it is because in most areas, you are not climbing mountains, you are in town, or in gentle rolling countryside, and too may people will get going too fast with the 4wd because they do not respect that it still is slippery. The 4wd masks the actual lack of traction that you will notice in the fwd car. It is a superior vehicle, but only in acceleration and THIS is the issue. You don't slide or spin much getting up to speed, and you get up to a speed with less fuss, leading that little doubt in the back of your mind to think maybe things are not slippery...whereas me in my little Front wheel drive just spent a minute trying to get up to anything close to a decent speed, and I can feel the wheelspin with every boot of the throttle.

Unless you are vigiliant with the 4wd, you are just going faster when you lose it... whereas in the fwd, you pretty much are always aware. Trust me, SUV's are about a quarter of the vehicles bought any more, or 4wd pickups, yet every storm I drove through, more than HALF of the vehicles I saw off the road in the ditch were SUV's with 4wd. People just do not respect the conditions because of the false sense of security.

If you are smart and careful, the 4wd is always superior, but I find most people keep forgetting the careful part...and it gets them into trouble. I wouldn't have this bias I suppose if I lived in Canada's north country were people are always aware because crashing in the middle of no where can mean you freeze to death, but down here in the populated south, people do all sorts of brain dead stuff behind the wheel.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Donkey, I defer to you being in the industry for the better alternatives.

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in the test and tire size Daniel mentioned, the Blizzaks (and Michelins and Pirellis for that matter) were second class. However this is the ADAC weighted overall score, so you really need to pick what suits you best. I tend to focus on wet safety and don´t care much at all about rolling resistance or mileage (to some extent these are pretty much conflicting design goals, as are wet/winter or winter/wear: in this same test Michelin for example was best for wear but worst in wet and winter). If your main focus is mileage and "get by" in wet or winter properties when they arise or when you're at your mil´s, all seasons would certainly fit the part...

In the end, as ever, it comes down to "don´t drive dumb": know your vehicle, your rubbers and their abilities or limitations under the road conditions... and drive accordingly!

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Originally Posted by donKey jote

in the test and tire size Daniel mentioned, the Blizzaks (and Michelins and Pirellis for that matter) were second class. However this is the ADAC weighted overall score, so you really need to pick what suits you best. I tend to focus on wet safety and don´t care much at all about rolling resistance or mileage (to some extent these are pretty much conflicting design goals, as are wet/winter or winter/wear: in this same test Michelin for example was best for wear but worst in wet and winter). If your main focus is mileage and "get by" in wet or winter properties when they arise or when you're at your mil´s, all seasons would certainly fit the part...

In the end, as ever, it comes down to "don´t drive dumb": know your vehicle, your rubbers and their abilities or limitations under the road conditions... and drive accordingly!

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I do know that for "snow" tires ( you guys in Europe refer to them as Winter tires), the two big names in the Canadian Market are the Blizzak and the Michelin. People who buy them still have to drive mainly on pavement in Southern Ontario because the road clearing takes the snow off within 24 hours of the last flake falling, and we don't see THAT much snow. In Quebec, where it can be colder and it snows more, maybe they wouldn't wear them out as quickly, at least outside of Montreal.

My main issue with snows is unless you live in a snow belt, you would wear this tire out on the pavement. What is more, the "all season" tire is a good all around tire that manages in snowy weather. So I never bothered getting snows. Then again, I don't live in the snow belt like Easy Drifter does. Nor do I live in Quebec, where it is law to have winter or snow tires on the car from Nov.1 to the end of March. I suspect the tire shop lobbiests had a great drunk the day THAT one was passed...lol.

In this years test on 185/60 R14 the Blizzak LM30's were rated in the top group as well but last year in my size the LM20's weren't.

Donkey, how much does performance change with tyre size?
I notice the Vredestein's rate well here -> http://www1.adac.de/Tests/Reifentest...rcePageID=8979 but then move up to a different size and they're far from the top -> http://www1.adac.de/Tests/Reifentest...rcePageID=8979

Only driven maybe 50 miles or so on them but I'm quite happy. One strange thing is that because they're narrower the car coasts longer so normally I'd lift off for a corner or roundabout and be at my normal entry speed but now I'm going just that bit faster. This also seems to mean that it's just a bit more fuel efficient now as well judging from what the trip computer is saying which is a good surprise :)

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

I do know that for "snow" tires ( you guys in Europe refer to them as Winter tires), the two big names in the Canadian Market are the Blizzak and the Michelin. People who buy them still have to drive mainly on pavement in Southern Ontario because the road clearing takes the snow off within 24 hours of the last flake falling, and we don't see THAT much snow. In Quebec, where it can be colder and it snows more, maybe they wouldn't wear them out as quickly, at least outside of Montreal.

My main issue with snows is unless you live in a snow belt, you would wear this tire out on the pavement. What is more, the "all season" tire is a good all around tire that manages in snowy weather. So I never bothered getting snows. Then again, I don't live in the snow belt like Easy Drifter does. Nor do I live in Quebec, where it is law to have winter or snow tires on the car from Nov.1 to the end of March. I suspect the tire shop lobbiests had a great drunk the day THAT one was passed...lol.

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Remember what Donkey said about compounds though, if summer tyres wear worse in winter than a winter tyre then winter tyres still make sense unless it gets silly warm.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

I do know that for "snow" tires ( you guys in Europe refer to them as Winter tires), the two big names in the Canadian Market are the Blizzak and the Michelin.

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Funny you say that (also specifically Blizzak and Michelin) because here the general opinion is that you don´t have any proper winter tyres anywhere in America ( ;) ) despite the cold Winters up North :p

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

My main issue with snows is unless you live in a snow belt, you would wear this tire out on the pavement. What is more, the "all season" tire is a good all around tire that manages in snowy weather. So I never bothered getting snows. Then again, I don't live in the snow belt like Easy Drifter does.

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The first Winter tyres - back in the 50´s- were Snow tyres as they were made to get you up the St.Gotthard pass on the white stuff and pretty much nothing else. The snow cover here in northern Germany is normally a week or so spread over the whole Winter (although this year it´s been an uninterrupted 3 weeks so far - "worst" Winter in 30 years :D ), but snow is really not the point. Now Winter tyres are really low temperature all-rounders. I wouldn´t say even a tenth of Germany lives in any sort of snow belt comparable to yours, but many have 2 sets of wheels anyway.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Nor do I live in Quebec, where it is law to have winter or snow tires on the car from Nov.1 to the end of March. I suspect the tire shop lobbiests had a great drunk the day THAT one was passed...lol.

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I'm not sure if there is some sort of legislation or not here yet, but there is certainly talk about October to March... the main problem I think is to find a legal definition for Winter tyre (hehe perfect bEUrocrat work ;) ). However, have an accident on "inappropriate" tyres and a) you´ll be considered at least partly liable, and b) your insurance will most likely not pay.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

In this years test on 185/60 R14 the Blizzak LM30's were rated in the top group as well but last year in my size the LM20's weren't.

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Yes, different product... maybe Bridge decided to shift strategy a bit after a couple of years of getting thumped :p : .

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Donkey, how much does performance change with tyre size?
I notice the Vredestein's rate well here -> http://www1.adac.de/Tests/Reifentest...rcePageID=8979 but then move up to a different size and they're far from the top -> http://www1.adac.de/Tests/Reifentest...rcePageID=8979

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Maybe 205'er Vreds have a crap compound.... New size = different product articles = possibly different comparative test results.
Bit like comparing a Fiat Panda vs Renault Twingo, and then a Multipla vs a Grand Scénic. Some overall brand strategy might prevail, but in the details you're comparing different chassis, engines, etc.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

This also seems to mean that it's just a bit more fuel efficient now as well judging from what the trip computer is saying which is a good surprise :)

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Narrower tires generally provide better fuel consumption than wider ones (check the pdf here for example, under "Rollwiderstand" - Rolling Resistance), but the main effect on your trip computer could well be down to tyre circumference ;)

look at the Finnish and Swedish,rally tyres in winter and see how narrow they are.The idea is that the narrower the tyres the more they CUT through the snow and ice.I have two winter tyres for my Fiesta they are 145X14 ,and they are good,the fatter tyres ride on top OF THE SNOW,AND DONT CUT INTO IT