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Well believe it, because that was reality. But it wasn't always about giving away their technical knowledge. More here's the components, see what you can make of them. And sometimes the advancements and information flow worked backwards. For example, I may be mistaken but I seem to recall it was Andy Dawson who developed the single leaf spring and coil over shock for RS1800 and Boreham homologated it.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Now they want to have all the package under control. By one side they mantain the know-how on his hands (the competition is hard and expensive), by other hand they earn some extra millions doing the work that was done in the past by the privat teams (putting private drivers running).Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
The technology nowadays is very far expensive and complyex that decades ago, and some of the issues discussed here ahave to do with it.
As long as the rally cars run among ordinary vehicles on public roads, they must meet all requirements to get the numberplates. This responsibility also falls on FIA. There is a big difference in building / customizing a car to Gr R, N, or the old A regulations, than to allow anyone to build a WRC car. Remember: the greatest fool is not born yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by JAM
I seem to remember that if you wanted to build a kit car yourself, you had to use body parts that were only produced by the factory. For safety reasons of course.
Maybe the cars of the past that (I guess) are much less complicated (like with engine mapping, etc) and a privateer could more easily replicate the performance of the factory cars? And IMO Sollit is correct and results dont lie. But NOT mentions the "straight fight", maybe with the bigger stages back then far more could happen than now, and perhaps the misfortune of the factory cars with punctures etc on the huge stages may have handed the win to a privateer in second place.Quote:
Originally Posted by JAM
Maybe if we saw some of the sprints (IE shorter SS's) stage times then we could compare them better, or maybe that is the subject for another topic :p
I think you didn't understand the meaning of "package".Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach 2
I made reference to package as build, prepare and sell the renting services.
As you see, Ford and Citroen have their own B-Team to privateers. In the past, there were a lot of b-teams, but all independent from the manufacturer/Developper.
Mini has a B-team (WRC Team Mini Portugal), but is not part of the manufacturer representative/developper (Prodrive), and is seen by everybody the kind of treatment that this B-Team receives from the developer. Receives crap material, and crap know-how. And receives also the evoluitins very late (Sordo had the 01B version in Portugal, but it seems Armindo will have to wait some months to have it).
The example of Mini is perfect of how things are done nowadays.
Let's not become overly philosophical about this. The reason the drivers in the examples I gave won events in privately run cars had nothing to do with the length of the stages or how unsophisticated the cars were. It was simply because they were top works drivers, at the top of their game, and they were using gear that was the equivalent of the best available at the time, often in partnership with, or representing, the works team.
Their mention was purely to demonstrate that in past era private teams could, and did, avail themselves of the same specification equipment as used by the works teams ... and it's not a situation that was limited to the 70's & 80's.
Imagine if you can what the WRC might look like today if, for the past decade, those with the wherewithall to fund a private WRC assault were able to access the very latest full spec machinery in which to sit some of the top drivers who are presently without a seat.
The answer is obvious: The developers/manufacturer wouldn't receive so much money from rents.Quote:
Originally Posted by sollitt
Not necessarilly at all. Anyone with the wherewithall to fund a private WRC campaign is already an achiever, a winner. Winners want to be in the main game. They don't settle for 2nd best or to be "the best of the rest". It could well be that, rather than reduce their earnings, opening the accessability up might enhance their business.Quote:
Originally Posted by JAM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollitt
Sollitt, You are seeing the very reason I find this forum much more pleasant using the ignore fuction for the Greek guy who does NOT know anything that is NOT easy to find on the monitor in the lab he lives in, which presumably he's busy surfing the net and NOT researching whatever he supposed to be researching.
I know that the manufacturers shared parts and knowhow and connections, you know it, anybody who was around even as a fan from the 70s rigth on to the introduction of the "World Rally Car" subset of Group A--and maybe more pointedly, the ascendency of Dave richards marketing model ie Prodrive...
I have downstairs 6-7 large blueprints I got maybe 9 years ago when i was building a Ford Cosworth BDG for a guy over hear. Factory prints with ever detail and measurement and setting to make the then normal 252 bhp... I have several copies of the wonderful book "Ford Escort Rally Preparation"
http://www.neilfletcherracing.co.uk/...uff/Prep_1.jpg
when was a gem of a book....which now, anybody who is interested, can find hosted all over them place
Ford Escort Rally Preparation
Ford gave away a mountain of detailed information on every part you could think of, and better they explained what things mean. And they did that with the Escort book from the mid/late 70s, the book "How to to prepare the Sierra for Motorsport" by mid '88, supplements for the 4x4 Sapphire in GpA or GpN by 1990, for the escort Cosworth by '93, again in both GpA and N, the F2 RS2000.
Spring rates, damper rates, ride height, brake disc sizes, master cylinder sizes, alignment setting front and rear, how to do that on GpN cars, ideal diff settings and where to send the GKN Visco-drive diffs in Solihull to get them set right for gravel or tarmac right down to the telephone number and contact (Barra, now at Barra Motorsport in nearby Bromsgrove, Worcs----this contact from 20+ years ago I've supplied to poor bastids stuck with those modern Misterbitchi and Sub-a-rats who are adrift with no information here in Fortress America)
And the funny thing is all this valuable, detailed information I had long before I had a Ford. It was detailed and rich enough to apply the knowledge to other cars in build techniques, and suspension, gearing etc...
For my rally days I had decided to do the mighty Saab 96 V4 as i was running a specialty business centered on those wonderful cars and for information I simply called old friends at Trend AB on Kungsholmstrand in Stockholm and asked if there was any built info and parts list...they made a call or 2 and 10 days later a fat packet of over 200 pages of detail engine build, set up, chassi mods, strenthening instructions, all the various close ratio gearkits and final drives, EVERYTHING you could imagine---and when I called to the nice guy who had sent it (he had been in Competition Department until the factory shut it down at the end of 1980) He gave me the telephone and fax number for the guy who had been the engine builder for all the glory days from Eric Carlsson till the end....who now is a good friend who I stayed with a couple of times including a month once after a silly divorce (My friend has a nice flat above the shop and he said "You stay here for a month. Well screw with V4s in the day and drink and talk about rally in the evening and not think about divorce....man can he drink!)
When working on Opels, same thing, "Call this guy, he does development work for Opel, and he thinks he speaks Swedish". Very friendly, very happy to discuss detail and show "tricks of the trade" (the guy is Norwegian and speaks a mix of Norwegian, German, Swedish and English. Thank God I do pretty good job faking Norwegian and passable German)
VW, same thing, hundred of pages of set up, assembly etc...contact numbers to people in the loop..
How can you possibly explain the details of what actually occured and what the norm WAS working in and around real cars to a creature who probably would NOT know the difference between a Subaru crank and a Ford crank if you smashed him over the head with it...
That is why I maintain EVERYTHING here is basically "pub talk".
man you have more patience than I (or maybe I'm just tired after making chips all afternoon in the machine shop for a kit to mount Toyota Supra rear LSD diffs into US market Sierras---so we can buy short ratio final drives for under USD 200, and its 25c in the shop.
Good on you John. I don't know whether it's patience, tenacity or stupity (I should be doing something more productive).
Anyway, I too have one of the Ford preparations books and a catalogue of all Ford Motorsport parts, which I obtained in about 1979, packed away somewhere in the archives ...
such was the availability of the information.
Sometime in 1978 a rather large & loud renowned car and engine builder, with whom I was quite well acquainted, from a little place called Paraparaumu (NZ) arrived on the doorstep
of DTV HQ (Shepreth?) wanting to know the intricacies of the works Chevette rally cars as he was charged with the task of building two for NZ's Dealer Team effort.
He wasn't initially warmly received, not because he was considered competition but rather because they weren't convinced he knew what he was doing.
The story has it that whilst debating his credentials he overheard a conversation between two DTV engineers mulling a problem they'd been unable to solve for some time.
Muscling in on the conversation our man offered a solution which proved to be the answer to their problem.
The welcome mat immediately went out and following an intense 3 or 4 days of open demonstration and disclosure, Peter flew home with all of the photos, blueprints and data required to replicate
the works car in it's entirety together with a suitcase full of 'unobtainable' parts.
When a full works car was sent for Airikala to contest RNZ in '79, that car remained in NZ afterward for use in our national series. Just another example of the open co-operation of the time.